Psychics, Liars and Drunks

[C Jayne]

Hope I can do this.



This is the chart of a much-beloved psychic in Yellow Springs, Ohio. She died sometime in the past 10 years.

I thought Liz's chart would be a good one for discussion. She was incredibly psychic -- no hokum. But she was quite illusive. For instance, she spoke with a British accent, so everyone thought she was from England. Joke! She was more Midwestern than corn!

Liz told me that having planets on the Ascendant makes a person have a very difficult childhood, and that hers was.

Now I would say, was she illusive, or did she and I simply speak in different terms? She was happy to give me a copy of her chart, but some of the planets could not actually have been precisely where they were drawn (hand-cast chart -- planets off by half a degree or so). She just shook her head almost frightened -- didn't have an explanation. She was an old lady by then. She told me she was born in a little town in Missouri and gave me her day and year of birth. I had to do the math and figure out the rest.

She briefly met Paramahansa Yogananda once, and made reference to it her whole life. (Some people mistakenly thought she was saying she'd been big buddies with him. I think she met him when she was five and he was 70 and he died the next year, or something like that. After I began hanging around her, she began clarifying this better when she mentioned it to people.)

(The woman was psychic -- she certainly knew I was playing "detective cop" on her abilities.)

(Interesting that her Jupiter and Saturn oppose, huh?)

She was a Buddhist meditator, and she brought together a group of meditators that met in Yellow Springs for years, religiously, on Wednesday nights in a stone chapel belonging to the Quakers. She was a licensed minister and sometimes performed weddings.

During the week, people came to her, paid her a little money, and she read their Tarot cards while her retired husband played chess with himself down the hall in the bedroom. One of her closest friends was a journalist. He knew she was the real thing.

There were people in that town and in surrounding communities who wouldn't make a move in their lives without first asking Liz if it would work out. She always told them things would work out, but she sometimes said they would have a lot of difficulty, and she frequently cited miraculously specific events that would occur.

I taught her Yoga, because I wanted to examine this species of astrologer -- someone so much beloved, having so much power, which I felt could be a dangerous thing. I believe she was well-meaning. Teaching people to meditate and telling them (she gave little sermons) they should seek God was probably her way of counter-acting the dependence (Neptune) people developed on her skills.

I have a little psychic ability -- not enough to set up shop! -- but she was like one of those psychics on the television detective shows!

Would you know it from her chart?

-- C Jayne

[Frisiangal]

Hi C. Jayne
Neptune in water signs and/or aspected to Moon seems to provide this ability. 12th house too, but I think 8th house would make it a bit scary. Your friend also had an exact 135 degree aspect between Neptune and Chiron in Pisces. She was probably seen as some sort of 'magic woman', although it might have been something she didn't particularly welcome with the grand cross between Chiron-Jupiter-Saturn-Mercury. Mercury in Virgo; she had it by the right end, but it must have put a lot of pressure on her from those dependent upon her knowledge.

If she enjoyed a drink she could probably hold her liquor with Neptune in Cancer. Drink like a fish? But the only harsh aspect is with Uranus and that isn't really associated with excesses in that respect, is it?

F

[Kite]

OK here's a theory for you - look at the midpoint between Mercur and Neptune and see if there is a major planet that comes up. In the chart above, the Sun is close to the midpoint but the cusp of the 2nd is pretty exact which would indicate talents in this area.

Another forum member who is psychic has Venus within a degree (Neptune is in Libra btw) and at the cusp of the 9th house.

I have the midpoint at my midheaven close to Saturn which rules my 12th house and Mercury. I have felt very intuitive and have had prophetic dreams but my ability to continously tap in is very limited but slowly growing.

Any other examples..I know this is a little off topic so I expect Aquarian Maverick to move this if needed.

Kite

[Arian Maverick]

Any other examples..I know this is a little off topic so I expect Aquarian Maverick to move this if needed.

Nah, I've given this up for now...sorry for being such a pain sometimes ops:

Aquarian Maverick

[wilsontc]

C Jayne,

Thanks for posting this chart! I see Liz has a boomerang focused on Neptune (spirituality, also subconscious) conjunct (energy is combined with) Moon (home, also unconscious) conjunct Ascendant (self), indicating she has great ability to contact people's subconscious and unconscious. This possibility is increased since the boomerang involves Virgo (daily work) modifying Mercury (thinking/daily work) focused near the 3rd house (thinking), Uranus (friends, also intuition) conjunct Descendant (others), and Pluto (transformation, also occult, other people's values, power) focused in the 12th house (spirituality, also subconscious). Quite a powerhouse of mental and intuitive abilities!

Note: The quincunx between Mercury and Uranus is created by the quincunx between Venus and Uranus, with Venus conjunct Mercury. Astrodienst is particularly stingy with quincunxes, so the quincunx between Venus and Uranus does not show up on Astrodienst.

Charting,

Tim

[Frisiangal]

Originally Posted by wilsontc

I see Liz has a boomerang focused on Neptune (spirituality, also subconscious) conjunct (energy is combined with) Moon (home, also unconscious) conjunct Ascendant (self), indicating she has great ability to contact people's subconscious and unconscious. This possibility is increased since the boomerang involves Virgo (daily work) modifying Mercury (thinking/daily work) focused near the 3rd house (thinking), Uranus (friends, also intuition) conjunct Descendant (others), and Pluto (transformation, also occult, other people's values, power) focused in the 12th house (spirituality, also subconscious). Quite a powerhouse of mental and intuitive abilities!

Note: The quincunx between Mercury and Uranus is created by the quincunx between Venus and Uranus, with Venus conjunct Mercury. Astrodienst is particularly stingy with quincunxes, so the quincunx between Venus and Uranus does not show up on Astrodienst.

Charting,

Tim

Hi,
What do you mean by the term 'boomerang'? Has it something to do with Neptune in the Moon's sign and their being conjunct? I read from the post that C. Jayne corrected the chart, which would make the birth time speculative? If Liz was born at a time in which Moon-Neptune were not aspected, would the term 'boomerang' still apply? Why is Mercury part of this 'boomerang'?

Mercury is retrograde in the 'out of sign' conjunction with Venus. Wouldn't they act as adversaries rather than combining their energy? Mercury would retrograde progressively to 'enter into' a quincunx with Uranus, but I don't know as if it would be inbred from birth because of its wide aspect to Venus. The yod with Venus-Pluto at its base and Uranus at its apex would be much stronger than the quincunx, don't you think?

Does our different perspectives have to do with new age astrology, I wonder :?:

I agree that astro. com misses out on a number of aspects. It's generous with its orbs too

F.

[Arian Maverick]

What do you mean by the term 'boomerang'? Has it something to do with Neptune in the Moon's sign and their being conjunct? I read from the post that C. Jayne corrected the chart, which would make the birth time speculative? If Liz was born at a time in which Moon-Neptune were not aspected, would the term 'boomerang' still apply? Why is Mercury part of this 'boomerang'?

A boomerang is a yod with an opposition point...it may not be visible on the Astrodienst chart; I know Tim has special softwear he uses to find extra aspects and configuration we may have missed

Aquarian Maverick

[sita]

This might make for another thread, but what defines "psychic?"

I think picking nits on a definition here is important.

In my experience/understanding, there are a few different kinds of "psychic" but some of them only involve use of the lower astral planes.

Is emotional sponging considered "psychic" ?

Is knowing what people are thinking or about to do "psychic," ?

Does being "psychic" refer to seeing auras and energy?

Does being empathic with no visuals mean one is "psychic"?

Does psychic refer to tapping into the higher mind/akashic records to gain knowledge or to predict future events?

Or is 'psychic"the experience of living consciously in a dreamworld with undeterminable causality?

Are we describing all of the above as "psychic?"

This is a subject I am very interested in.

Thanks,
Sita

[Lapis]

Very good question sita. The word "psychic" is used like a blanket term to cover so many different things by people. I myself am guilty of using the word psychic to cover a lot of territory too. I don't usually go into complex details about the huge variety of 'things' that this word (psychic) covers because its just too time consuming for starters!

I remember a while ago on a 'metaphysical' forum that even they were having a hard time defining what exactly "psychic" meant and what all that term covered etc. And that was on a metaphysical forum!

The thing about this thread that gets me personally is that the words -"Psychics, Liars, and Drunks" are all rolled together like that. Possibly indicating that the person who started this thread believes or feels they do go together. Boy can we tell that Mercury and Jupiter are Rx right now, and in water signs? :cry:

How about if I started a thread titled something like this....."Intellectuals, Mental Illness, and Perscription Drugs"? I hope this crude and rude post helps get some things back on track a bit. Wow, what's going on people?

[C Jayne]

Originally Posted by Lapis

... the words -"Psychics, Liars, and Drunks" are all rolled together like that....How about if I started a thread titled something like this....."Intellectuals, Mental Illness, and Perscription Drugs"?

Lapis--

Actually, I started the thread that way as a reference to the Neptune position, which, I believe, can influence a person to become a psychic, a liar, or a drunk. Liz Kelly did not drink, in my knowledge of her. She may not have been as compulsively forthcoming as I am, but perhaps that was a good thing.

Your remark is a good one, if my intentions had been unfriendly. My mother, who also is not a drinker, has a strong Neptune connection (on the Midheaven), so I have thought of posting her chart. She is somewhat psychic - a word which I believe Sita is correct in saying warrants discussion.

C Jayne

[C Jayne]

Originally Posted by sita

This might make for another thread, but what defines "psychic?"

I think picking nits on a definition here is important.

In my experience/understanding, there are a few different kinds of "psychic" but some of them only involve use of the lower astral planes.

Is emotional sponging considered "psychic" ?

Is knowing what people are thinking or about to do "psychic," ?

Does being "psychic" refer to seeing auras and energy?

Does being empathic with no visuals mean one is "psychic"?

Does psychic refer to tapping into the higher mind/akashic records to gain knowledge or to predict future events?

Or is 'psychic"the experience of living consciously in a dreamworld with undeterminable causality?

Are we describing all of the above as "psychic?"

This is a subject I am very interested in.

Thanks,
Sita

Sita --

Very interesting thoughts here. Like how they say, the Intuit have two dozen words for "snow" and English-speakers have only one word for "Love."

To clarify my own entries on this:

Liz Kelly's kind of psychic abilities included the following:

- she could tell you something that was going to happen to you. Spontaneously, in the middle of a yoga lesson, she one day told me, looking rather surprised about it herself, that I would probably marry sometime soon. I did, but the marriage was not a happy one. I even consulted her -- paid her money -- to ask her if I was making a good decision, and she told me everything would be fine. I think this means her own good intentions got in the way of her "psychic" abilities.

My own kind of psychic abilities:

-- I can be a psychic sponge, as you say, soaking up the emotion around me instead of maintaining a sensible distance from distress.

-- I have read my friends' or my mother's minds when they were telephoning me, or reading a book about which I had no knowledge (I awoke and recited a weird, elaborate dream which was the plot of a book being read in the next room).

-- Some people are senders, some are receivers. I once thought I was in love with a guy because I was so instantly able to "hear" his thoughts. Then it turned out he was a "sender" and he knew he was a "sender." He consciously "sent" thoughts often.

-- Only once or twice have I tapped into that higher knowledge thing you describe. It was during a period when I meditated a lot.

-- Isn't there a distinction to be made between "hearing" what people are thinking, and "knowing" what is about to happen?

I think it's just useless sensitivity when I can "hear" someone's thoughts. But I thought it was pretty useful when Liz Kelly could actually tell you,"The man you'll meet will be someone you'll have to take care of, often, and do things for --" or some other specific piece of information like that.

What are other people's thoughts on that? (No, I can't hear your thoughts from where I am. You'll have to think more loudly!)

--C Jayne

[Kite]

....."Intellectuals, Mental Illness, and Perscription Drugs

I don't know sounds like I could have a lot to say in a thread like this. ops:

[sita]

Kite:
genius is madness,
and bliss is reserved for the ones willing to dance in the paradox.

my thought on the matter, atleast
Sita

[sita]

C-Jayne,
A very cool Freudian slip:
you wrote Intuit instead of INUIT !!!!
And I'm so into it!
:roll:

I'm intersted in this thread, but I'm tired and have to go to bed, so I'll catch up with you again tomorrow.

Thanks for sharing,
Sita

[Arian Maverick]

I'm intersted in this thread, but I'm tired and have to go to bed, so I'll catch up with you again tomorrow.

I agree...it's hard trying to keep up with friends halfway around the world, especially when it's past midnight in our time zone!

Aquarian Maverick

[wilsontc]

Frisian,

You said:

Mercury is retrograde in the 'out of sign' conjunction with Venus. Wouldn't they act as adversaries rather than combining their energy? Mercury would retrograde progressively to 'enter into' a quincunx with Uranus, but I don't know as if it would be inbred from birth because of its wide aspect to Venus. The yod with Venus-Pluto at its base and Uranus at its apex would be much stronger than the quincunx, don't you think?

I don't think about whether conjunctions are "in" or "out" of sign...I simply look at how close the planets are to another and if they are in my orbs or VERY close to being in my orbs, I call them a conjunction. Venus is definitely closer to the quincunx, but it wouldn't explain the psychic effect. In my opinion, the possibility of Mercury quincunx Uranus makes sense in this context so I used the conjunction to Venus to "pull" Mercury into the quincunx.

The time difference might matter slightly, but this is a boomerang mostly of planets, not of points (i.e., Ascendant, Nadir, Descendant, Midheaven) so it should not be overly significant, except to possibly eliminate the conjunction of Neptune and Moon. Maverick explained what a "boomerang" is.

Opinionating,

Tim

[Frisiangal]

Originally Posted by C Jayne

-- Some people are senders, some are receivers........

-- Isn't there a distinction to be made between "hearing" what people are thinking, and "knowing" what is about to happen?

--C Jayne

G'morning all from this part of the world

I tend to believe that a strong Neptune is descriptive of psychic ability and its sign and planet it aspects can show in which way. I also believe that everyone has psychic qualities but ,like so much energy, it was suppressed/ repressed in previous eras when people were 'scared' of what was so natural in many achieved. It went against God's supremacy, although we are now allowed to argue that if we're all made in His image, then we possess His qalities. As Neptune's transit through Scorpio gradually disintegrated its taboo spheres and we have become a more open and permissive society in the west, the closet can be opened and Neptune's 'antenna' pick up those extra-sensitive perceptions again. There's no longer the fear of the rack or the burning at the stake.

I agree with C.J. that there are senders and receivers in Neptune. It makes Liz's chart more interesting because, apart from the possible conjunction with Moon which enabled her 'to pick up' on other people's feelings, Neptune is otherwise unaspected. It's pure unadulterated psychic energy.

I believe there to be a distinction between 'all seeing', 'all hearing' and 'all knowing'. Sagittarius is the visionary quality, the seer or knowledge of things to come given a reality through Capricorn. It's Pisces, through Neptune, that possesses the 'all' quality, as fragile as it may be, that is timeless and can be expressed through the higher quality inherent in Aries. IMO.

Well; that's the effect of my first coffee of the morning

F.

[Frisiangal]

Thanks to Tim for the reply and to Aquarian Maverick for explaining what a boomerang is.
Also, thanks for including BML in the generated charts, Aquarian Maverick.
What a difference the point of something makes

F

[Elianah]

Okay, here is my take on the subject.

First off, I have seen psychics (i.e. mediums, channelers and clairvoyants) who were also chemically dependent because they could not (or possibly would not) consciously disconnect with the entities they were working with once they were out of session. They remained "clear channel" receptors for all the entities of all the clients they served at all times. The only way they had figured out to shut this stream off was through a chemical dependency.

I have also encountered psychics who I would consider liars because they were so intent in proving how psychic they were to the client that they refused to pay attention to the feedback that the client was providing them. They jumped to conclusions based on their own personal biases and stereotypes rather than allowing the client to work together with them to help interpret the energies they are picking up. Some of these psychics also appear to me as needing to be right because they are psychics and are so much more loftier than mere mortals.

Does this mean all psychics are drunks? NO

Does this mean all psychics are liars? NO

Does this mean all psychics have high hubris factors? NO

To me it means that psychics are as human as anyone else and some will suffer chemical dependencies, some will be liars and some will believe in the strength of their powers so much that they become blindsided by it and forget that it is the art of the relationship that matters when working with a client. Just like artists, journalists, politicians, craftsmen, medical practitioners, etc., there are good psychics, mediocre ones and bad ones.

There will also be psychics who are just not destined to read for particular clients because their world view cannot mesh with the clients' world view. That doesn't make those psychics "bad," it just means there are certain limitations on the interactions one human may have with another. I do think psychics who claim they can read for anyone at anytime is doing a disservice to themselves and their potential client base. Psychics can be generalists to a point, but there are particular skills that should be left to a specialist, say like a medical intuitive or a past life reader.

The other thing I believe is that humans tend to like to label people or ideas when those people or ideas are discordant with their own belief system so they can discount and ignore what is being said. The people who label then look for justifications to back up their claims. If they find out a psychic is also chemically dependent, then all psychics become chemically dependent for them and all psychic information can be discounted as coming from drunks and unreliable.

By doing that, humans are able to stay within their safety net of safe beliefs rather than really embracing the other position, studying it, debating it, and really seeing if it has any validity for them. Labels allow one to blindly, unthinkingly and emotionally reject out of hand than taking the challenge to understand and respect. The challenge to understand and respect does not mean that one will change one's mind on the position. What it means is that the person explored the idea with an open heart, mind and soul and determined that the position is not appropriate at this time in the growth cycle of the person. The idea is not wrong, only wrong for that person at this moment.

And, although it is very hard to do, all points of view can be respected without having to agree with all of them.

Elianah

[Elianah]

This was an accidental double post and I have cleared out the second copy.

Elianah

[Frisiangal]

Originally Posted by Elianah

First off, I have seen psychics (i.e. mediums, channelers and clairvoyants) who were also chemically dependent because they could not (or possibly would not) consciously disconnect with the entities they were working with once they were out of session. Elianah

On a slightly different note, I remember my first medical astrology conference. There was I full of Utopian ideals listening to these masters of the universe with their celestial linked insights. When it was finished, everyone made for the lounges. I have NEVER seen as many people light up a cigarette whilst queing for a drink at the same time. Needless to say, full of disillusionment my heavy Earth side pulled my feet back to solid ground in double quick time. :?

F.

[m_Adison]

Well, I'm a liar and a drunk.

I'm sure it's in my chart. -- haha. but, I don't wanna post it and have you all laughing at me...



Oh, that's right. I already did.

DAMNIT.

:evil:

I'M A JOKE.

ops:

Sorry, I'm a little hungover - - tends to make me delusional. :?

[m_Adison]

I was born under pluto retrograde...

Maybe that's why I am a lying, destructive... But - - - enjoyable - - person. I was just reading about Pluto Retrograde... and it doesn't sound like a good omen...It does make sense after reading it, though... I destroy and rebuild... that is my practically my entire life. :|

[C1]

.....yes,
but are you M_Ad? :P

Here's the fable of Psyche, (our soul)...so what's
this to do with drunks, psychics, liars?

http://www.bulfinch.org/fables/bull11.html

Well, I may be leaping wildly from the "Mythology" thread
to here...(so, sorry...:roll: )

I've just been reading Daniel Deardorff's
book called "The
Other Within" (White Cloud Press, Ashland, Oregon).

...The Other Within...what's that?!

Deardorff says:

"The problem...is the one-sided
obsession with immortality, light, and ascent....but all this
is halfhearted elevationism; for, as we know, in authentic verticality,
'the higher the spirit goes the more deeply the soul sinks down.'"
[quoting Robert Bly]...

Well, if I'm the fool on the hill--that's cool.

Though the masses will reject us....
Tricksters go beyond
humanic sending and receiving....

"'When the horse addresses the rider we have
something quite different...In this exchange,
there is interaction and interplay, the reverse
of the tight-fisted, control-narrowed spirit.
In this way...allowing ourselves to be carried away
transforms the situation, forces an alteration on the
creative spirit, and throws it into a play that carries it
beyond itself, carries it, that is to say, really and
properly into play that entrains the entirety of creation.'"

We are opening the heart....

"...play is a liminal mode..betwixt-and-between all
standard nodes, essentially 'elusive' -- a term
derived from the Latin verb eludere...
'to take away from someone at play,'
thus 'to cheat' or 'to deceive.' ...Like many Trickster
figures in myths (or should these be 'antimyths'...)
play can deceive, betray, beguile, delude (another
derivation of ludere 'to play'), dupe, hoodwink,
bamboozle, and gull.'" (Victor Turner, "Body, Brain and
Culture, The Anthropology of Performance ed. Richard Schechner)

"'The creation is not an accomplished work....Like the human
body, the cosmos is in part built up anew,
every night, every day; by a process of
unending regeneration it remains alive.
But the manner of its growth is by abrupt
occurrences, crises, surprising events and
mortifying accidents. Everything is forever
going wrong; and yet, that is precisely the circumstance by which
the miraculous development comes to pass. The great entirety jolts from
crisis to crisis; that is the precarious, hair-raising
manner of self-transport by which it moves.'"
(Heinrich Zimmer, The King and the Corpse: Tales
of the Soul's Conquest of Evil)

...it's more than Mercury Rx or Pluto cj GC...
whether we're open to it or not....

Hooray for the wyrd-o's on the forum and
in the "chaos-mos"

C1

[m_Adison]

MAD would be an understatement.

I like to use the term... psychotically expanded.

:mrgreen:

.:.:.:m_Adison:.:.:.