Mayan Elder Speaks: The How and Why of The End Date in 2012

[Draco]

Hi all,

Okay, it's not exactly 'Astrology Now!', but of the near future, but here is a link some of you may find interesting.

I quote the Mayan Elder here, but there in other information in this link.

www.vinesbranch.com/view/?pageID=213555

Mayan Elder Speaks:

DON ALEJANDRO ... MAYAN ELDER

September 1999 ... Santa Fe, New Mexico

We are all here because it is our destiny, our mission. Spirit has called each of you here. You are special. I am no more special than you are. You are more than me. I am a poor Mayan. We do not have schools and universities like you do. We live in the poor countryside. What I have is given to me by my father. The Cosmos is the source of our knowledge. We study the Cosmos. Our books are the Mayan Codices. For us, this is our writing. The hand is a book. We have 5000 codices. We study these. We communicate with the invisible ones, the star people, who gave me my name,"Wandering Wolf." I come in fulfillment of the prophesies of the Mayan and Hopi, which says: "Those of the center will unite the eagle of the north and the condor of the south, because we are one, like the fingers of the hand." This means that the elders of Central America will unite with those of North and South America. This is a fulfillment of our prophesies, that is why I am here. our elder astronomers are watching over time and when it will be fulfilled. It shall be fulfilled in Twelve Baktun and it began on August 17, 1987, the Harmonic Convergence. It was then that I began my walk all over the world. ..... [check out the aforementioned links for more.]


Thank you.

Don Alejandro,
Wandering Wolf.

[Moderator edit - due to Copyright protection]

[Empath]

Thanks, Draco. There's a whole lot of information packed into Wandeing Wolf's statement. His mention of the two comets -- one great comet, one red one -- is very interesting. Could the red comet be Nibiru?

[Natasha]

Possibly it doesnt mean anything except that their calender ran out. Did they just calculate calender some way.
Otherwise
We are going to leave the age of Pisces in the future & many say we are on the cusp now.
The end of the Mayan calender could relate to that.
I think we are currently very cusp personally (if that makes sense)

I dont think our ingress into Aquarius is going to be like the old hippie song 'age of aquarius'
I think it could be an age of technology but we are going to have to resolve the issue of fossil fuel runout.
But I do feel this will be resolved & we wont fall into a dark age or embrace the political ideology spelt out by Greenies
The Mayan calender ending might even indicate something around all that.

[sita]

What does a calendar do?

It charts time.

If time does not actually exist and we realize it, do we need a calandar?

Methinks NOT.


The end of the Mayan calandar I believe indicates the end of our current understanding of time, but not the end of life. Its the end of a distorted collective human consciousness that has created a "time" construct. The ending of our perception of time will actually be the beginning of life. Our belief in "time" has been a difficult experience for us. It has been an unnecsessary limitation for us that blurs the miracle of existence and human potential. Synchronicity flaunts time, multidimensionality flaunts time, meditational experiences flaunt time, making love flaunts time. All the fun good things that our spirits enjoy don't operate in "time" they operate in open space relationship. I belive this is what Pluto in Capricorn is all about. Radical transformations regarding the "structure" of reality and our belief in time, and thusly, how we experience our world.

What is this time thing anyway? Sure, we all believe in it, but what is 'IT'?' How often do we remove our minds from being here now by rehashing the past or thinking about the future. This mode of consciousness ususally is the root base of fear for most people. It is a neverending "what if___?, " or "it was____" in the mind of many many people on this planet.

We are not meant to hang on to our past experiences the way we do. We are not meant to worry or fear or fight or feel less than or more than others. We are all A simple beautiful expression of the All, with the All, in the All, and of the All. . The only reason we prepare for the future is because we don't fully trust what we are capable of doing in every now. We don't know how life or BEING could be another easy way in which everything flows and is natural and is provided for us. EVERYTHING. Everything we need to do, have, experience, and create just comes. And everything works itself out because we become all one organism of spirit that maintains our individual identities because we are all included in the plan of life. We all exist in the mind of the Universe and we always will. We are the Universe. We can chill.

This change of Pluto into Capricorn is about the transition to exclusively BEING HERE NOW. I believe. And just wrapping up on the karma, which is essentially everyone just reassembling into their own original perfection. A big old collective "I find what I lost and I give you back what I took from you." What we are doing going through now feels weird, but its just the reassemblance process. We were all originally created with essence and rights and power and love and reception and abilities and knowledge and consciousness. And I now believe that what we pereive as our fear based "ego" is really just a dissonant vibration of consciousnesss based around this time concept that collects energy or debris, because its unnatural. Its just a warp. PIcture a porcelain sink with a chip in it.... after you wash your hands, a pool of water gathers in that hole. I see it as the same way for our original selves... perfectly good energies just getting stuck in a little weird place thats causing us disharmony.

But when the unnatural things/concepts/ideas/religions/beliefs get recognized in this period of Pluto in Sag conjunct GC., this is the beginning of the unfolding and reopening of this warp into something so originially and familiarly beautiful. We see now that we have all these religious concepts that we don't really know what to do with:... all these ideas, but essentially, all we really ever know is now and ourselves. NOW and WE are very very very good, and incrediblely capable. . All the imaginary fears of loss we had/have (about the future or love or ourselves or planetary destruction or whatever) can be left because they don't actually exist outside of the warp.

Duality was just an experiment, I believe, or as part of a greater construction of Universal Design. But its not going to be around forvever. I think it served an original purpose of realm/consciousness expansion (for the Universe which we are) and this experiment is being completeld in the time up to 2012. At which point we probably won't remember this time or this way, but we will really RE-MEMBER how it really is. I think that's what all of this is about, but our collective mind had to build up some big culmination point to convince itself that yes, life and OURSELF really is ok.

These are my thoughts and I apologize if I projected or ranted. My words are only intended to heal and secure truth.

but you know the truth for yourself

Sita

[Kite]

Very nice Sita and I posted some similar views in the Pluto in Capricorn thread.

[Elianah]

Perhaps what will happen is that the Vogons will come through and destroy Earth to build their hyperspace bypass in 2012...
Thoughts from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

Seriously, however...

I understand that for some that the end of a cycle may be fraught with danger, whether it is an end to an astrological age like the Age of Pisces or an end of a great calendarical cycle like the Mayan Calendar or a simple cycle like a yearly planting-harvest cycle. All have high uncertainty factors that humanity cannot control. All humanity can do is go with the flow and allow things to happen.

Time is a concept I think early hominid species sensed and experienced only. As hominid brains continued developing and gaining additional means of explaining things, time became more and more important because it explained why things grew, aged and died, how game moved and when was the appropriate time to gather certain plant materials. As homonids moved into more temperate climates, time became even more important because it allowed them to determine when seasonal changes occured that would affect their well-being. As homo sapiens emerged and became first the dominant and then the only hominid species, by "telling time" it gave humanity an apparent sense "control" and "order" what otherwise what might seem chaotic and create a random universe. Humanity abhors chaos and randomness. The concept of time appeared to take an element of randomness out of the picture for early humanity.

As humanity continued on its development path, it further refined its way to "calculate" and "manage" time in ways that furthered the "order" of the universe humanity saw. Each "time management" system respected the way that that particular human culture witnessed its universe.

Each dimension and each universe has(d) its own unique concept of time built on the perceptions of the beings which inhabit it.

So to me, the end of the Mayan calendar represents one of two things:1) it was the time that Maya culture felt that its way of experiencing the universe would end and would be replaced with some other "time management" system; 2) it was the time when a new great cycle would begin within the Mayan universe: a time of adaptation and change that would elevate the Mayan system to a higher level.

Or, perhaps it was a great practical joke that the elders perpetrated to show that in order to participate in the Mayan calendar cycle one must have great understanding and respect for the traditional Mayan universe and be one with it. Perhaps they conceived of a time where younger cultures would be trying to read their "rationality" into the Mayan calendar to get the answers they think they want in their universe(s) instead of allowing the Mayan calendar speak for the Mayan universe.

In my thinking, in any scenario the Mayan calendar represents that culture's search for making meaning and order out of the chaos it perceives it exists in. The Mayan universe contains collective elements from the entire human unconscious (past, present and future) as well as location-specific and culture-specific elements which affected their view of their universe.

Each of us live in a personal universe, a location-specific universe, a familial-specific universe, a nation-specific universe up through all the other dimenional and spacial universes. Each of those universes perceives itself in slightly different ways. Each of those universes are feeling the continual pull of the creative flow, which most of those universes define as chaos and perceive chaos as something bad.

As long as most of humanity defines the creative flow as chaos and chaos as bad, there will be a search for someone or something to bring order and stability (i.e.: good) into their various universes. Until those various universes get the answer they want and exclude all other answers as being invalid, they will continue to search and search for a place to find that answer. Perhaps it is in the end of the Mayan calendar, perhaps it is the coming of Moshiac, the second coming of Christ, the creation of Nirvana, or any other great "orderer out of chaos." Perhaps it is something humanity has no experience with at this moment.

Whatever it is, it seems to me that the mythology of the "great orderer" is a way for humanity to shirk taking any responsibility and being held accountable for what it has created throughout all of its universes because humanity will be rescued and changed by the "great orderer." The "final fate" is always out of humanity's hands so it does not matter what humanity wroughts on itself or on its planet. Those who believe will be saved and those who do not will be damned by the "great orderer" and the "great orderer" will create a homogenized, unthinking line of humans that will be "perfect." Only fundamentalists of the right persuasion need apply.

That is not the world I particularly would want to live in because I learn and grow a lot more in heterogeneous, multicultural, multidimensional multiverse because I can think, reassess and really consider what I am doing and why. If part of that multiverse is living with the human concept of time, that is what I agreed to when I incarnated on this plane at the time I did. It was my choice and I am responsible and accountable for that choice and all subsequent choices since that intial one.

And I realize that this position may make me a heretic and pariah on this board. Oh well, I can live with that.

I started out with a thought based on The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and I will end with another: If the answer to Life, the Universe and Everything really does turn out to be 42, isn't the mystery wonderful that we get to discover what 42 means within our universes?

As always, these are only my thoughts and you can take what resonates for you and ditch the rest.

Elianah

[Kite]

Whatever it is, it seems to me that the mythology of the "great orderer" is a way for humanity to shirk taking any responsibility and being held accountable for what it has created throughout all of its universes because humanity will be rescued and changed by the "great orderer." The "final fate" is always out of humanity's hands so it does not matter what humanity wroughts on itself or on its planet. Those who believe will be saved and those who do not will be damned by the "great orderer" and the "great orderer" will create a homogenized, unthinking line of humans that will be "perfect." Only fundamentalists of the right persuasion need apply.

Elianah,

I think you've tapped into more of what Pluto in Capricorn will be about - Order or the elimination/transformation of it as we know it. After all, Pluto in Sagitarius has really taught us that the law of man is fickle and driven by money. We all knew OJ did it but law as we knew it got turned inside out when facts became nothing but accepted fiction and fiction was derived from facts. Charlie Sheen came out yesterday declaring that he believes 9/11 was a conspiracy and there are a lot of people skeptical of anything this government tells us. How about the Supreme Court deciding the election of 2000 and then voting laws everywhere manipulated again in 2004. Law has become a hurdle that just needs to be jumped and with the right friends, connections, money etc..there is just about anything that can be hurdled.

So now we get to order. It seems to me that the basis for order in the Piscean age has been control over the scarest resources. We're talking oil, land, food, wealth and people. The operating principle is the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The question I pose is what happens when these resources become so scarce that it is impossible to centralize control? Along with this comes the realization that many of these resources have always been available, abundant and free? Energy out of steam for instance, or from dark matter contained within atomic particles ala Nicholas Tesla technology suppressed over the last hundred years.

This brings me to the next point which is Tesla's work in time transfer. Yes, I know it sounds wacky, but why not time travel? If you think about it, the ultimate scarce resource we've had is time itself. We may have agreed to work with a calendar in this lifetime but linear time is the most devious way to control the masses. I say that because it uses the carrot and the stick method of controling the believers of whatever religion one belongs. I'm not talking about a 9th house religion, I'm talking about a 10th house institutional form. The religion can be Catholic, Corporate, Nationalistic it can be any institution where the goal is perpetuation of the organization with some kind of salvation or guiding priciple that gives it's followers/members meaning. All of this meaning is based on a beginning (baptism/initiation) and an ending (legacy/heavenly status). Everything in between is the drive towards a positive linear end because a negative linear end is the opposite polarity (bankruptcy/hell).

So what happens when time is no longer considered to be linear? In other words we discover that time is multi-dimensional and happening simultanously. Time travel is nothing more than shifting dimensions. What would this do to the ordering of our world? First, we'd have to give up our notions of heaven and hell and accept that we create our own living heavens and hells because life constantly recycles itself. Not only that, but it is our responsibility to ensure that the world left behind is not a better place for our ancestors but a better place for ourselves as we will not be escaping into some wonderful eternity of vestual virgins at our beckon call but reworking ourselves back into the world we've been shaping all along.

Will this change from linear time to open-ended time cause anarchy? I think it will cause self-serving organizations to implode. Any organization that has used the carrot and stick to recruit and retain membership will cease to exist in a meaningful way. Organizing principles will change to common interests where cooperation will be the operating principle because without it groups will not be able to survive. Accountablity will be inherant within the Universal laws that will be acknowledged. These would include laws of Karma, attraction, unity, conservation, concentration, manifestation, etc.

I'll end this diatribe with what I think is the most ironic piece of this. That is that the End of Days is when we are supposed to find our salvation. It's actually in the end of being manipulated by linear time is when we will find our salvation.

Kite

[Elianah]

We all co-create the universes in which we believe we want to participate. It may be unconscious or conscious creation, but we do co-create.

I believe that there are those who will ascend to whatever world they are co-creating with one another.

I believe that there are those who will evolve and participate in the many facets of this Earth-plane, past, present and future as one creative singularity, hoping to improve the lot of humanity and the physical Earth-plane through what they are co-creating with one another.

I believe there are those who will unconsciously or consciously choose to stay in the quagmeier they have co-created together because they cannot (or will not) see other possibilities.

And guess what? Those co-creative groups plus more will still exist on the Earth after 2012, after the Rapture, after Jihad, after the Moshiac returns, etc. because they are all part of the human mosaic.

Perhaps some universes will choose to no longer interact with one another and that way their universes will become pure, sort of a strange version of Nazi visions of the Aryan Race. Other universes will choose to continue contact with one another because they know that is the best way for them to evolve is to be connected and learn from one another, even when they respectfully disagree with one another. And there will be many others.

And there will be the universes who will cling to their clockwork, calendaric time measurement ways because it is right for them.

What all these universes will need to move towards is accepting and respecting that what is "right" in their universes is not necessarily "right" for other universes and that all can live with that perspective.

Hopefully that is what the Age of Aquarius will bring forth...my opinion only, of course...

Elianah

[ZenMusic]

The Mayan calendar does not really "end" in 2012, but rather, all the cycles turn over and start again, vibrating to a new era. It is as if humanity and the Earth will graduate in the eyes of the Father Sun and Grandmother Milky Way.

Due to a phenomenon called the precession of the equinoxes, caused by the Earth's wobble that lasts almost 26,000 years, the apparent location of the Winter Solstice sunrise has been ever so slowly moving toward the Galactic Center. Precession may be understood by watching a spinning top. Over many revolutions the top will rise and dip on its axis, not unlike how the Earth does over an extremely long period of time. One complete rise and dip constitutes the cycle of precession.

The Mayans noticed the relative slippage of the positions of stars in the night sky over long periods of observation, indicative of precession, and foretold this great coming attraction. By using an invention called the Long Count, the Mayans fast-forwarded to anchor December 21, 2012 as the end of their Great Cycle and then counted backwards to decide where the calendar would begin.
http://www.planetpapp.com/br21december2012/ for more info

[Futurist]

I think you are all hitting on something very important here. I had just been thinking in terms of 10th house 'reformations' but I just had one of those 'of course' moments. Pluto in Capricorn will herald a transformation in the way we perceive time. Saturn is the marker of time - one of the great chronocrators, Chronos= the God of Time. Saturn also represents 'projections of one's limitations' When Pluto comes along he will compromise the foundations of all that we have traditionally held to be scientific fact and will cause a complete rethink (rebirth) of the way we view time and what is and isn't possible in this universe.

On another less profound level, I believe that Pluto in Cap will also turn around the way we do business on a 9-5 basis. I know this is already very much changed in many businesses which operate 24/7 already. However, in the bastions of traditional industry i.e the big family owned banks and insurance companies (esp here in the UK) the men in suits in the City still cling to the old fashioned working week.

The advent of globalisation with the outsourcing of employees to places like India and China will probably increase, aiding businesses to remain open 24/7 and all the others will have to follow to remain competitive.

Having said all that, one other manifestation which could conceivably occur is the diametric opposite to this supposition - perhaps we will once again come to understand the importance of planetary rhythms and start to incorporate knowledge such as VOC moon into the pattern of daily working life. This would also fall under Pluto in Cap..... reverting back to traditional beliefs about time and its constructs.

x

[Mary]

We must not forget that we have to live the day of today in peace. We owe it to humanity and to our earth.

Nowaday we seem to live in a crisis. Money, power, sucess and apareanances seem to be the only things that coul make us happy. But that´s not true.

Individuality make us "forget" about people who live in misery, it makes us forget that great enterprises are abusing nature, especially in "third world " contries.

I live in Argentina and now two big enterprises (one fron Spain and another one from Finalnd) want to install their paper industries in the the Parana riverside but in Uruguay, they will pollute our river. People from Argentina and Uruguay are fighting along with Greenpeace to stop them. It´s all about money and the worst thing is that they think that by polluting and abusing here in America they wont be affected. But that´s not true.


I think that the Mayan Calendar issue is all about this. We must realize that if we keep polluting, we wont have any natural resourses in a near future. We must not think that this will not happen, beacuse it actually can.
And also we must remember that we are all equal and try to help to make the worl a better place, just by being in peace with our people and hepling for a good cuase will be enough.


To stop worrying about the future and make our world better today, now. I think we should learn and apply that.

Peace.

[freedomlover]

I recently received an e-mail from a lady who owns a metaphysical store. It's on the subject of preparation for 2012. I thought I would post it on this thread for the rest of y'all:

>THE WORLD WILL NOT END IN 2012
http://www.lightparty.com/Spirituali...otEnd2012.html
> >
> > By Carlos Barrios
> >
> >
> >Carlos Barrios was born into a Spanish family on El Altiplano, the highlands of Guatemala . His home was in Huehue tenango, also the dwelling place of the Maya Mam tribe.
> >
> >With other Maya and other indigenous tradition keepers, the Mam carry part of the old ways on Turtle Island ( North America ).
> >
> >They are keepers of time, authorities on remarkable calendars that are ancient, elegant and relevant.Mr .Barrios is a historian, an anthropologist and investigator. After studying with traditional elders for 25 years since the age of 19, he has also became a Mayan Ajq'ij, a ceremonial priest and spiritual guide, Eagle Clan.
> >
> >Years ago, along with his brother, Gerardo, Carlos initiated an investigation into the different Mayan calendars. He studied with many teachers. He says his brother Gerardo interviewed nearly 600 traditional Mayan elders to widen their scope of knowledge.
> >
> >"Anthropologists visit the temple sites," Mr. Barrios says, "and read the inscriptions and make up stories about the Maya, but they do not read the signs correctly. It's just their imagination... Other people write about prophecy in the name of the Maya. They say that the world will end in December 2012. The Mayan elders are angry with this. The world will not end. It will be transformed. The indigenous have the calendars, and know how to accurately interpret it, not others.
> >
> >The Mayan Calendars comprehension of time, seasons, and cycles has proven itself to be vast and sophisticated. The Maya understand 17 different calendars, some of them charting time accurately over a span of more than ten million years. The calendar that has steadily drawn global attention since 1987 is called the Tzolk'in or Cholq'ij...... [contd on the website mentioned above]


[Moderator edit - due to Copyright protection]

[Neptune Rising]

Thanks for posting that Freedomlover

I do hope we find the right path.

[Steeler]

I can't believe some people still think 2012 will be the end of the world.
Our whole galaxy is going through many changes, but that doesn't mean it's the end of the world.
If something happens; it's nothing. Nothing at all.
Or if we are lucky and it's really time for some evolution, we might change.
I mean, we can just look around and see that people are constantly changing and in most cases, for the better.

A lot of people from my generation are going through some seriously big spiritual changes and so are the older generations,
so something is indeed happening, but that doesn't mean a meteor is going to hit us!

This doom and gloom 2012 thing is targeted to us by those who are NOT on 'our' side and for VERY good reasons.
Humans tend to manifest what they fear the most, especially in large masses.

[Neptune Rising]

Originally Posted by Steeler

This doom and gloom 2012 thing is targeted to us by those who are NOT on 'our' side and for VERY good reasons.
Humans tend to manifest what they fear the most, especially in large masses.

Yes totally, they play on the massive fear of change.

Perhaps the world will indeed end, in a metaphorical sense, total change but not physical destruction. Maybe some of us in the western world have 'death' or 'change' so hidden from us we have this ingrained fear of change. We just haven't explored its meaning. We have got stuck on materialism, things that appear solid and lasting, we have bought into this illusion. Ooo wouldn't it be nice if this illusion disolved in 2012!

[freedomlover]

Originally Posted by Steeler

I can't believe some people still think 2012 will be the end of the world.
Our whole galaxy is going through many changes, but that doesn't mean it's the end of the world.
If something happens; it's nothing. Nothing at all.
Or if we are lucky and it's really time for some evolution, we might change.
I mean, we can just look around and see that people are constantly changing and in most cases, for the better.

A lot of people from my generation are going through some seriously big spiritual changes and so are the older generations,
so something is indeed happening, but that doesn't mean a meteor is going to hit us!

This doom and gloom 2012 thing is targeted to us by those who are NOT on 'our' side and for VERY good reasons.
Humans tend to manifest what they fear the most, especially in large masses.

I agree - mass hysteria is probably the worst thing that can happen - or will make the worst thing that can happen - worse. That's why I thought to post this particular article I received. It seemed to be balanced and practical concerning 2012.

FL

[Shokk]

Sometimes I like to think that in 2012 all that's going to happen is mass hysteria, completely human controlled and created. No Nibiru slamming into the planet, no sudden shift in magnetic poles, no Deus ex Machina flying down to enlighten humanity. Just a case of us humans being crazy little creatures.
Not to say that nothing significant will happen, I just believe that it's all a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[C1]

Hi,

Here's something I posted in another thread on this Forum on 10-23-05...I'm re-posting in its
entirety because I'm not sure it's still on the "sacredroad" web page...

hi sawhite and lapis,

Learning so much, so fast...throughout this Forum!

Here I am posting a portion of a Mayan instruction regarding

13 energies...the transformation of many cycles to the 13 00 00 00 00 count. The web site is "sacredroad" if you want to read the entire post...it is in Spanish, with english translation at the very end.

Thanks for this thread, Draco.

C1

[Moderator edit - due to Copyright protection.]