How can two opposite signs not be in opposition?

IleneK

Premium Member
My heart goes out to you!

But I wonder if it's Saturn opposing Sun-Venus that reflects your issues? Saturn for sure is involved. It is the only planet in your chart that is located above the horizon. In retrograde, in Pisces, in the 8th, your Saturn could well represent an absent father.

You have a much closer Saturn opposition, between Saturn and Chiron, which I suspect could reflect the abuse problem you have experienced. Saturn-Chiron could also indicate trust issues and difficulties with authority figures.

Good work, Judy.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
with a 10 to 13 degree orb?
the reason for my comment *emma* is because in this particular case, we are discussing theV's natal Sun located at 9º Virgo 11' :smile:
theV, some traditional astrologers say the orb of aspects between Sun and Saturn is 12º and can even be as much as 13º 30'!!

Table showing maximum distance at which planets are in orb of each other states:

Sun = 15
º and Saturn = 9º
SO then
15º + 9º= 24º
which is then divided in half to find “the moiety of the orb” and the result is 12º

Your sun is 13º away from opposing Saturn directly so may be possibly 1º “out of orb”

BUT at the top of the table are these words: “The emboldened figures use the most commonly accepted orb allowance.
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] The figures in normal type indicate a wider allowance accepted by some”

Therefore since IMO your own personal experience indicates a Sun opposition Saturn experience, then you are of course entitled to accept the wider orb allowance of 13º 30' as shown on the table at
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspectorbs.html[/FONT]

IMO for the individual, experience/perception of one's own life is what matters :smile:
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]13º 30' is the wider orb allowance shown on the Skyscript table link provided in the above quote

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]13º 30' + [/FONT]9º Virgo 11' = [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]22º Virgo 41'

and

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]22º Virgo 41' [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]is in opposition to [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]22º Pisces 17'

Therefore
[/FONT]
fwiw IMO theV your Sun/Venus conjunction is most definitely opposed by Saturn and not only by sign but also by aspect
However, that is just my opinion and amongst astrologers in general, there are many varying ideas regarding what is/is not an acceptable orb
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
I think the (what I consider super-wide) orbs followed in Traditionalist astrology stem from the once universal basis (in Hellenist astrology) of sign aspects (rather than degree aspects which came later); note too that aspect by sign (rather than degree aspects) continue to be how aspects are determined in Vedic astrology, to the present time.

I accept aspect by sign, but I believe that aspect by degree using limited orbs, are more intense; if I don't find an aspect by degree involving a planet, then I see if there is an aspect by sign, which I count, but at a lesser intensity than if I find an aspect by degree (using a limited orb)
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
thats ok dont get ur nickers in a twist, why stop at 13 degrees, why not extend it to 15 or 20
:w00t:
*emma* I intended my post to form part of the friendly discussion to help theV who has posted a comment earlier, questioning why he experiences all the effects of a Saturn opposite his Venus-Sun conjunction - theV is concerned that many people have told him his Saturn is not in opposition to his Sun
I asked a lot of people if my saturn opposite my venus-sun and they said no despite all effects of this aspects applies on me
So I explained to theV that he has got a natal Sun opposing natal Saturn IF the widest allowable orb is used. That's all. Of course not all astrologers agree that is the case and it is an interesting case where the person's individual experience of their chart clearly shows that in this particular case, a wider orb does seem to be applicable :smile:
I think the (what I consider super-wide) orbs followed in Traditionalist astrology stem from the once universal basis (in Hellenist astrology) of sign aspects (rather than degree aspects which came later); note too that aspect by sign (rather than degree aspects) continue to be how aspects are determined in Vedic astrology, to the present time.

I accept aspect by sign, but I believe that aspect by degree using limited orbs, are more intense; if I don't find an aspect by degree involving a planet, then I see if there is an aspect by sign, which I count, but at a lesser intensity than if I find an aspect by degree (using a limited orb)
I tend to agree with you dr. farr! However, is it not intriguing that theV's personal experience of a natal Sun opposing Saturn resonate so well with the "super-wide" 13º 30' orb we are discussing? Would you consider theV to be an exception to the general rule of a narrower orb?
 
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*emma*

Banned
no worries jupiter ascendant i know there are some astrologers that say very wide orbs are fine but there has to be a limit if the orb system is to be respected

then again linda goodman wrote tomes and connected signs and not degrees eg in her compatability love signs book and people reading her found a connection, what to say
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
JA:
No, actually I would say in theV's case, that the sign-opposition "worked", and is the basis of theV's experiences regarding that opposition (however I still would like to know the declinations involved, ie, if there might be a contra-parallel, because I count the declinations-particularly the Parallels-as being THE most significant of "aspects")
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
no worries jupiter ascendant i know there are some astrologers that say very wide orbs are fine but there has to be a limit if the orb system is to be respected

then again linda goodman wrote tomes and connected signs and not degrees eg in her compatability love signs book and people reading her found a connection, what to say
That's a valid point that I agree with *emma* - and I agree as well with dr. farr - because as you say the orb system has to have some kind of limit. What exactly that limit is seems to be a matter of opinion! I personally tend to opt for a narrower orb BUT theV is clearly experiencing a wider orb, which is interesting - I guess every rule has exceptions :smile:
 

tsmall

Premium Member
no worries jupiter ascendant i know there are some astrologers that say very wide orbs are fine but there has to be a limit if the orb system is to be respected

then again linda goodman wrote tomes and connected signs and not degrees eg in her compatability love signs book and people reading her found a connection, what to say

I am curious, because I am still trying to learn everything. What exactly is the "orb system?" I am familiar with planetary moiety, which does allow greater orbs for aspects than the standard 1* applying, exact, and 1* seperating for transits. Especially as relate to natal charts and aspects, why don't more people consider wider orbs? We aren't talking about transits when we read the natal chart, but the chart itself. If we were trying to predict events, I would want as tight an orb as possible. But aspects by sign, and even aspects with wide orb, that are felt and remarked on by the native? How do we ignore those?
 

*emma*

Banned
That's a valid point that I agree with *emma* - and I agree as well with dr. farr - because as you say the orb system has to have some kind of limit. What exactly that limit is seems to be a matter of opinion! I personally tend to opt for a narrower orb BUT theV is clearly experiencing a wider orb, which is interesting - I guess every rule has exceptions :smile:

but how do you know v is experiencing anything out of this aspect and not another element?

eta yea the orb system needs a limit its math based, at least, have no idea how it was started but i go with not reinventing the wheel
 
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*emma*

Banned
I am curious, because I am still trying to learn everything. What exactly is the "orb system?" I am familiar with planetary moiety, which does allow greater orbs for aspects than the standard 1* applying, exact, and 1* seperating for transits. Especially as relate to natal charts and aspects, why don't more people consider wider orbs? We aren't talking about transits when we read the natal chart, but the chart itself. If we were trying to predict events, I would want as tight an orb as possible. But aspects by sign, and even aspects with wide orb, that are felt and remarked on by the native? How do we ignore those?


someseasoned professional astrologer should answer this, from my understanding orbs are to do with close energies, so a sun conjunct pluto at 1 degree is going to have those energies very strong, a sun pluto 10 degrees apart might feel it but would bemore white noise?
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Orbs grew out of the older concept of moiety. and Western Modernist practitioners tend to use close orbs (ie, close to partile aspects) in the general range (depending upon the aspect involved) of about 3 to about 6 or 7 degrees (away from exact) The Modernist concept is as Emma mentions above: closer to perfect aspect the greater (more intense, "purer") the energy involved is likely to be expressed.

I myself accept this doctrine in practice; however I also accept aspect by sign as being effectual as well IF it is not superceded by close aspect in degree.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I would agree with you dr. farr and would also add fwiw the following 99 WORD QUOTE which IMO also helps to explain the origin of orbs in the paragraph titled 'Application' & The Development of Orbs by Deborah Houlding at http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspects.html:smile:

"Orbs originated from determining limit when aspect strength calculated by degree overcame relevance of aspect calculated according to sign... opinion varied... Antiochus mentions 'contact' / 'application in the proper sense' as within 3 degrees[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT][14] Unfortunately we have no clear/unambiguous examples of orbs in classical astrology - we make reasoned guesses at their development, based on information from later texts.

Latin orbis meaning 'circle'/ 'sphere', defines planetary orb as area of heaven immediately surrounding it.... Some referred to planet's orb as the force of its body, a highly charged aura, invisible to the eye... yet steeped in the planet's influence"
 

theV

Well-known member
My heart goes out to you!

But I wonder if it's Saturn opposing Sun-Venus that reflects your issues? Saturn for sure is involved. It is the only planet in your chart that is located above the horizon. In retrograde, in Pisces, in the 8th, your Saturn could well represent an absent father.

You have a much closer Saturn opposition, between Saturn and Chiron, which I suspect could reflect the abuse problem you have experienced. Saturn-Chiron could also indicate trust issues and difficulties with authority figures.

I was going through Saturn transit 2008 to 2010 I was 12
 

theV

Well-known member
Maybe you should be moving! Get away from these people. Even if they ARE family, they are damaging you.

I don't think if I will breath again I don't if I will feel my soul again Sometime I feel I am fighting even in my own house I don't think I will have peace in my mind Moving ha! I will stuck with them we actually we moved from that place but my family gonna comeback and I am going to meet my abuser and I am feeling it. When i remember that someday we are going back I don't if I feel strong or weak I just don't know I need to have faith in god
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
*emma* said:
but how do you know v is experiencing anything out of this aspect and not another element?

This is exactly what I was thinking. I often hate it when people are "sure" they feel a certain aspect that isn't really in their charts, but continue to insist that that's the cause of the problem. This closes them off to real solutions that could help them as they continue to relate their problems with the wrong situation.

As far as this chart is concerned, Venus is very debilitated and rules the Fourth house of family with Mars in detriment therein. Ding ding ding, we have a winner when it comes to family problems. Fortunately, Mars is the malefic of the sect, so our native should be able to use these circumstances later in life to make themselves a stronger person.

The Sun rules the first house of the self and we have him Square to the Moon, the ruler of the Twelfth house of depression and afflictions of the soul.

Also, I would note that our native's Sun progressed to that opposition of Saturn 4 years ago, so we're starting to come out of it now.

About aspects, sometimes aspect by sign is powerful enough, but aspect by degree is so much more important. Feeling the effects of the planets is what the orbs are supposed to gauge, so if the native is feeling something that you initially attribute to an out of orb aspect, please consider other circumstances in the chart that could help them solve their problems.

As for our troubled native, you have a very fortuitous Moon/Jupiter conjunction. Believe in it and let it carry you through.

tsmall, people don't typically use the wider orb and moeity system because more modern astrologers will use more points than the seven traditional planets. Obviously these other points don't really have moeites or orbs, so it becomes difficult. Add into it that even more will use minor aspects, and there will certainly be some overlap between aspect orbs. Remember our discussion of the "Johndro" aspect? It's that sort of thing.
 
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theV

Well-known member
This is exactly what I was thinking. I often hate it when people are "sure" they feel a certain aspect that isn't really in their charts, but continue to insist that that's the cause of the problem. This closes them off to real solutions that could help them as they continue to relate their problems with the wrong situation.

As far as this chart is concerned, Venus is very debilitated and rules the Fourth house of family with Mars in detriment therein. Ding ding ding, we have a winner when it comes to family problems. Fortunately, Mars is the malefic of the sect, so our native should be able to use these circumstances later in life to make themselves a stronger person.

The Sun rules the first house of the self and we have him Square to the Moon, the ruler of the Twelfth house of depression and afflictions of the soul. it been more than 4 or 5 months and I am dealing with my issues

Also, I would note that our native's Sun progressed to that opposition of Saturn 4 years ago, so we're starting to come out of it now.

About aspects, sometimes aspect by sign is powerful enough, but aspect by degree is so much more important. Feeling the effects of the planets is what the orbs are supposed to gauge, so if the native is feeling something that you initially attribute to an out of orb aspect, please consider other circumstances in the chart that could help them solve their problems.

As for our troubled native, you have a very fortuitous Moon/Jupiter conjunction. Believe in it and let it carry you through.

tsmall, people don't typically use the wider orb and moeity system because more modern astrologers will use more points than the seven traditional planets. Obviously these other points don't really have moeites or orbs, so it becomes difficult. Add into it that even more will use minor aspects, and there will certainly be some overlap between aspect orbs. Remember our discussion of the "Johndro" aspect? It's that sort of thing.

My venus is not in the 4th house neither my sun it not in the first house I am really aware of my problem I've read my chart thousand time and I look deep in my soul
 
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