BIRTH AND TIME OF BIRTH

manuu

Banned
Birth And Time Of Birth

Birth and time of birth is vital in natal astrology.

BUT WHAT IS BIRTH AND HOW DO WE DEFINE IT TECHNICALLY?.

astrologers have different views on this :-

1)birth is when the head of the child first emerges from the mothers body.

2)when the whole body emerges out of the mother.

3)when the child is separated from the mothers body ,by cutting the placenta.

4)when the child takes the first breath and cries.

all the four views above ,have their followers and critics.
ANY OTHER VIEWS OR SUGGESTIONS ?.
 
Last edited:

Mary

Well-known member
I read in "12 houses" by Howard Saportas, that Birth is considered when the baby cries (that would be breathes) for the first time.

I support this idea, because when baby is inside the mom´s body he breathes the placenta´s liquid and when he is born he has to adapt to breathing air, that´s why he cries. It´s the first sign that he/she is alive.

Finally, I have always been curious about the chart of the day of fecundation, that would be very difficult to determine, but would it tell us sth more?
Just wondering
 

Arian Maverick

Well-known member
Finally, I have always been curious about the chart of the day of fecundation, that would be very difficult to determine, but would it tell us sth more? Just wondering

Draco wrote a post about this idea not too long ago...if only I could figure out how to navigate this new forum, I would provide a text link.

Arian Maverick
 
According to the Hungarian tradition, birth time is recorded when the umbilical cord is cut.

In most cultures I suppose it's after the baby first comes out, but I've encountered numerous cases where the best predictions come when you subtract four or five minutes from the birth time that the nurse recorded. Horary astrologer Anthony Louis suggests that.
 

blumen

Well-known member
I agree.
Taking the birth-time is not the first thing an obstetrician normally does when a baby is born. First the umbilical cord is cut, then the baby is washed, weighted and measured, and it is only after this that the birth-time is recorded. If everything goes smoothly, it may take even ten minutes. I think that the time recorded on birth-certificates seldom reflects the exact time of birth.

Blumen
 

Arian Maverick

Well-known member
Wouldn't an official recorded time of birth leave an impression upon a newly delivered infant, though? How may one discover their true Ascendant?

Arian (Possibly Piscean) Maverick
 

Three-leg-cat

Well-known member
I think the most important thing to consider whatever which moment you decide to use is that which time is significant for a baby.

Many critera mentioned about, but I believe the "recording time" is somewhat significant whenever this time may not be the exact time when the baby head is coming out, or it's when the baby first cry(Do all babies cry at birth??), since it reflects some intrinsic interactions between the infant baby with the world, in this case it's the time the baby interacts with the person recording with a pen. It's the time when "the first person reconigize a baby was born".

Otherwise, I'd believe the time of fecundation is more important, since it represents the start of life.
 

blumen

Well-known member
Arian Maverick said:
Wouldn't an official recorded time of birth leave an impression upon a newly delivered infant, though?

I don't think so. Planets leave their impression upon a baby when he is born.

The recording of the birth time marks the interaction between the baby and the person who records it, therefore this interaction must be shown by the transit on these two people's synastry chart. I wouldn't say that it can leave an impression upon the baby.

The true ascendant can be discovered with a chart rectification. I have tried rectifying my chart with this method

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/animodar.html

I would not swear by it, but in my case it worked.

If you are not sure wheter your AC is in Pisces or Aries, you can cast two charts, one with the AC in Aries and the other one with the AC in Pisces. Then you can try spot all the marks, moles, scars etc. you have on your body using Lilly's rules.

Another thing you can do is keep a diary of all that happens to you for a couple of years, and then compare the events to the transits. If you ascendant is wrong, they you will notice that planets will manifest their effect either before they actually touch the AC, MC or an house cusp or after the transit has taken place. If this happens for a reasonable number of times you may consider rectifying your chart.

Blumen
 

Arian Maverick

Well-known member
Thanks for the resource, Blumen! :)

Is there an online ephemeris I can use to identify the exact moment of the full moon preceding my birth?

Arian Maverick
 

Arian Maverick

Well-known member
Thanks again!

I know I encountered a mathematical formula to determine to the exact degree of any particular planet on a particular day and time...should I attempt to set up an equation in which the variables for the Sun and the Moon would be equal? :confused:

I appologize for all of these beginner questions...

Arian Maverick
 

blumen

Well-known member
Oh my God, equations! Yes, if you know how to solve it (I am dumb when it comes to mathematics) just do that,

Blumen
 

Arian Maverick

Well-known member
Since the article you suggested is fairly short, I will post it here for reference:

Animodar method of Rectification

- the Animodar method of rectification can be traced back to the work of Ptolemy and is explained in detail in several traditional works, such as Antonius de Montulmo's work on nativities and the nativities section of William Lilly's Christian Astrology. It aims to correct the degree of the ascendant once the astrologer knows which sign should be on the ascendant.

The method is based upon consideration of the degree of the previous syzygy (lunation). If the chart was preceded by a new Moon, it considers which planet has the most essential dignity at the degree of the New Moon; if it was a full Moon it considers which planet has the most essential dignity in the degree of the luminary above the earth.

According to Lilly's instruction, having identified that planet you then consider whether it is nearer to the ascendant or midheaven. If it is nearer to the ascendant you alter your ascendant to the degree position of that planet. If it is nearer the midheaven, you alter the midheaven in your chart to the degree position of that planet and then adjust your ascendant accordingly.

Galileo's chart notes for his own horoscope appear to demonstrate him attempting to rectify his birth time according to the animodar method. The planet which had most dignity in the previous New Moon was Venus and its degree position - 27°37' - is marked alongside the ascendant. If he was using the method exactly as Lilly described it he would have changed the MC to 21.37, which would have put 28.42 Leo on the ascendant instead. But this may suggest that what has been omitted from Lilly's description is the instruction that if the planet is closer to the asc-desc axis rather than the MC-IC axis you amend the ascendant degree (and change the MC if it's vice versa).

Since I was born during the Balsamic Moon, my task is to find "which planet has the most essential dignity at the degree of the luminary above the earth." I can only assume this refers to the exact moment of the Full Moon prior to my birth--in astrological terms, an exact opposition between the Sun and the Moon. According the the Swiss Ephemeris for the year 1989, the Sun was located at exactly 29 Pisces 21'35 on March 20 at 11:50:1 Sidereal Time, and it occupied 0 Aries 21'10 by March 21 at 11:53:58 Sidereal Time. Therefore, the shift from Pisces to Aries must have taken place between these two dates/times. I suppose that this information is not necessary to construct the chart, yet I thought it would be good practice. Unfortunately, I do not have a firm grasp of Sidereal Time and am unsure how to apply any formula I have learned to include this...

Since I was born under the influence of an Aries Sun, it seems reasonable to conjecture that I should be searching for the closest date before my birth with a Libra Moon. The Moon was located at exactly 26 Virgo 51 on March 22 at 11:57:54, and it occupied 8 Libra 40 on March 23 at 12:1:51 Sidereal Time. Therefore, the shift from Virgo to Libra must have taken place between these two dates/times. Although this information is not exactly vital to the chart, again I believe it would be good practice should I ever learn the necessary calculations involved.

I believe that the Full Moon may have taken place between March 22 and March 25, but this is hardly accurate enough to begin the process of constructing a rectification chart.

Can somebody please help me sort through my thoughts?

EDIT: I discovered a handy Graphic Ephemeris (Data Sheets) for 12 months from January 1989 until December 1989, and indeed there was a Sun-Moon opposition on March 22 at 9:58 UT. Should I proceed to translate this time to the local time zone of my birth place?

Here is the chart should this be the case:



Now all I need to do is "consider which planet has the most essential dignity in the degree of the luminary above the earth." I admit that am a bit perplexed by this statement, yet I am inclined to believe it may apply to Venus at 28 Pisces 19.

Any help with this chart rectification method would be greatly appreciated...

Arian Maverick
 
freckle clock!

blumen said:
If you are not sure wheter your AC is in Pisces or Aries, you can cast two charts, one with the AC in Aries and the other one with the AC in Pisces. Then you can try spot all the marks, moles, scars etc. you have on your body using Lilly's rules.

My gosh, I hadn't thought of that! Do you think, potentially, that a person could figure out his birth time based on the birthmarks on his body? What if the birthmarks are inherited? (like, a spot on the nose that dad has or a freckle on your eyelid like grandma...)
 

blumen

Well-known member
Arian Maverick said:
Since the article you suggested is fairly short, I will post it here for reference:
Now all I need to do is "consider which planet has the most essential dignity in the degree of the luminary above the earth." I admit that am a bit perplexed by this statement, yet I am inclined to believe it may apply to Venus at 28 Pisces 19.
Arian Maverick

In this case then you should put the AC at 28 Pisces 19, and your birth-time would be 05:57 AM.

Saturn is exalted in Libra, but its degree of exaltation is 21°. Since this is a night chart, Saturn has out of sect triplicity, and dignity only by terms. Therefore Venus - as the ruler of Libra - seems to have the most dignities.

Blumen
 

Arian Maverick

Well-known member
In this case then you should put the AC at 28 Pisces 19, and your birth-time would be 05:57 AM.

I had originally set my birth time to 5:58 before your post revealed my mistake...thank you, blumen! :)

Arian Maverick
 

Arian Maverick

Well-known member
This is what Kryon has to say about the matter:

(17) QUESTION: Dear Kryon, we’ve been studying astrology for some time and we know that the solar system helps to create and support an impression of an individual selfhood for us. The planets and their movements affect our character, moods, and ideas. We’d like to know what exactly this mechanism does and how this system works in terms of science. Most important, we’d like to know how we could use this ancient science most effectively in the new energy. It seems to be a contract, “karma.” What happens when one enlightens and cancels his contract? Do the planets then stop affecting us?

ANSWER: Although this has been explained in recent channellings, we’ll summarize the way astrology works: The sun is the fulcrum of the solar system and the center of energy for life for you. There is a physical mechanism for the sending of information from the sun to the other planets and it’s called the solar wind. This energy stream carries with it whatever pattern of interdimensional energy the sun has at that moment, and delivers it to whatever is in reach of the sun's magnetic field [the Helios]. It’s always there, but it has cycles of intensity. Although science sees the solar wind as a energy player in the solar system, they have yet to see the interdimensional patterns it carries to the planets as this wind blasts out from the sun.

These patterns reflect the posturing of the sun as the other planets exhibit their tugs and pulls on it via gravity and magnetics (both are interdimensional energies). Therefore these sun patterns change continuously as the planets provide new gravitational and magnetic situations to the sun.

When the solar wind, carrying this sun pattern, hits the Earth, it deposits the pattern upon the magnetic grid. The magnetic grid is dynamic (changes all the time), and is responsive to being constantly repatterned. The grid lines of the planet alter the pattern slightly due to fact that your grids aren’t consistent and have greater and lesser areas of influence in different Earth locations.

Human DNA is sensitive to magnetics, since it is a magnetic engine itself. At birth, when the child is separated from the parent, there is a signal sent to the brain of the infant that says, “Your system is now active and on its own, apart from your mother.” During that first breath of independent and unique life, the child’s DNA receives the pattern from the magnetics of the Earth’s grid, and takes on what you have come to call “astrological attributes.”

Different places on the planet will carry the basic pattern, plus or minus what Earth’s magnetic field has contributed due to geographic location. This explains why world-class astrology must take into consideration the location of birth. Astocartography is also based on this principle.

Astrology is the oldest science on the planet, and can be proven to be accurate. In addition, “generic” astrology is also a significant influence in Humanism, from the cycles of the female’s system, to the profound changes in Human behavior when the moon in full. You can’t separate yourself from it, and those who don’t believe in it might as well not believe in breathing, because it’s that much of an influence on your life.

The new energy on the planet invites you to change your DNA. This is the teaching of Kryon. When you change your DNA, you’re working with the very core of the pattern you had at birth, and so you’re able to then work on some of the attributes of your astrological blueprint, and actually change it—even neutralize it. We told you all about that in 1989. Masters did this, and you’re now coming into a time where your abilities are those of the masters. Look into your life and eliminate the things that are challenges and keep the attributes that support you. This is the true balanced Human Being.

You can change your sensitivity to attributes within your own individual astrology type, but the generic influences of the planets’ and moon’s movements will always affect you to some degree, since you’re not an island apart from others. These would be things such as retrogrades and the moon’s influence (as indicated). You might say, “I’m no longer affected by retrogrades” and sit and smile all you want. Meanwhile, you still shouldn’t sign contracts during that time, since all those around you are still affected. Think about it.

Arian Maverick
 
Top