return match Arsenal vs Real

Thankfull to Draco I was able to read Frawley’s article form his “Horary textbook” about sports and contests.

Consider Lords 1 and 7. Which is the stronger? The major accidental dignities are much more important than essential dignity in these questions. Essential dignity might tell us who deserves to win; accidental dignity tells us who does win.

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Untill today I did not know this! So, now, I am ready to expriment! The return match Arsenal and Real are near so let’s see if this is true!
Here is the event chart:





In this experimet I will use Lilly’s table for Accidental Dignities and Accidental Debilities. Arsenal is represented with ruler of ASC (home team) and Real is represented with ruler of DSC (visiting team)

Accidental Dignities for Arsenal (Venus)

In 4th house +4
Direct in Motion +4
Free from combustion and Sun's beams +5

Accidental Debilities for Arsenal (Venus)

Slow in Motion -2
oriental -2
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Total : 9


Accidental Dignities for Real (Mars)

In 9th house +2
Direct in Motion +4
Swift in Motion +2
Free from combustion and Sun's beams +5

Accidental Debilities for Real (Mars)

Occidental -2
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Total : 11

Althougt I do this for the first time, I think this is small difference so from this we may say it will be tie.
This was a simple maths, and if this shows that it is true I got filling that this will be my favorite method for predicting winner. It is much easier than look for triplicity, term, face, antiscia and so on.
I look at birth data for coaches for both team, and both has positive transit Moon upon natal Moon and that is indicator of good mood. And coaches are in good mood when his team do not loose game. Another sign that it will be tie.
ASC in Libra in conjuct with fixed star Windemiatrix (something to cry about). I think this match will have so to speak “sad note”. First association when you say “Libra” is Justice. So, I think in this match arbiter will be in spotlight! When he is in spotlight? When only he “see” penalty and another does not, or when he “delete” obvious goal. I told this because of the Ne presents in 4 house, house of honour for DSC team. So, one of the Real’s goal may be “problematic”.
Somehow, ASC and DSC does not fit for colours of sports gear for teams. Arsenal has red sports gear but thay are represented with Li and Ve in Aqu, both has no relation with red colour. I do not like this.
Mars, ruler of Real is in conjuct with Aldebar fixed star so there is danger of violence or catastrophe by weather conditions.
Our TV will broadcast this match live so I will sure watch it!

Hi Goca,

Here's my take on the event chart:

If we are to analyse the chart using Frawleys methods, then it would make sense that we use Frawleys way of scoring dignity/debility.

Frawley says in 'The Horary Textbook',

Chapter 7, pg 57:

Being direct in motion is usually listed as a dignity. It isnt. This is the usual state of affairs, from which retrogradation is an aberration.

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Chapter 7, pg 60:

Being free of combustion is usually listed as a dignity. It isn't. This is the usual state of affairs, from which combustion is an aberration.

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This would mean that if a planet is retrograde or combust, then we would score it as a debility, but, just because a planet is direct in motion or free of combustion, then this should not be considered to be especially relevant, because this is just the normal state of affairs, so we should not consider this to be accidental dignity. It is just normal, so there is nothing special about it.

Therefore, if we score according to this concept, we have the following:

(There are no significant receptions between Venus and Mars to consider).

Accidental Dignities and Debilities for Arsenal (Venus).

4th House = 4
Slow in motion = -2
oriental = -2

Score = 0

Accidental Dignities and Debilities for Real (Mars).

9th House = 2
Swift in motion = 2
Occidental = -2

Score = 2

Looking at it this way, Real would seem to have an advantage, at least in terms of accidental dignity.

Although Frawley tells us that accidental dignity will suggest to us the winner, I don't think we should take this consideration in isolation, without putting this idea into context within the wider framework of symbolism within the chart.

We need to explore further, to see if the message of Real having an advantage is further reinforced elsewhere in the horoscope.

The first thing I notice, is that Arsenal are signified by Venus, Real by Mars. Who is the more appropriate representative of a soccer team? Mars is the natural ruler of sportsmen and conquests, so for Real, this might be seen as a dignity of sorts, because Mars is so appropriate a representative. Real have the god of war standing in for them.

Look at the angles, which represent each team. The South node, ever malefic, is conjunct the Ascendant, representing Arsenal. The North node, ever benefic, is therefore conjunct the Descendant, representing Real.

Consider also Mars' conjunction with fixed star Aldebaran. We should be mindful not to ignore the stars. Aldebaran is a star associated with superiority, being a royal star. It is a military star, being of the nature of Mars according to Ptolemy, so we might consider it especially powerful in conjunction with Mars for Real.

Some quotes on Aldebaran from www.winshop.com.au/annew/Aldebaran.html

Aldebaran is the Greek Omma Boos, Latin Oculus Tauri, and the early English Bull's Eye; [Bull's-eye is what we call "the centre of a target, which usually carries the highest score", and "a precise or highly effective achievement"].

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In the English game of darts, the 'bull's-eye' in the centre of the board, is the highest score that can be achieved, the 'bull's-eye' at the centre is so called after this star, as it bestows success in competition.

These were also called archangel stars; this star Aldebaran was Michael - Military Commander of the Heavenly Host.

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Michael is the angel of warriors and those who go into battle, so we might consider this a good omen for Real, having Michael on their side.

Hebrews rendered this star God's Eye.

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It is clear that this star is associated with prestige, might and dominance. It is sometimes considered a malefic star, but considering that it is of the nature of Mars, and it is conjunct Real's Mars significator, and is associated with power in battle, then could we really consider it a bad influence in this case? I would think not.

If we use the appropriate night formula for Pars Fortunae, then we see that Mars is also applying conjunction to this Part. This may simply signify Real striving for victory, but all things considered, this might also promise success for Real Madrid. Frawley tends to ignore Fortuna, but if it is conjunct a significator, I cannot help but notice it and take it into consideration.

Although this would deviate from conventional practice, I cannot help but notice that the midpoint of Venus and Mars, symbolising the battle, is conjunct the North node. The North node is upon the DC representing Real, and in the rulership of Mars; conferring benefit upon real Madrid.

In the chart we see that Venus has the minor dignity of being in it's own face, Mars is peregrine. Venus having the minor dignity of being in it's own face is descriptive, in that they are at home, comfortable in that they play on their own ground. Mars, Real, are peregrine, because they are the visitors and in an alien environment. This gives us no testimony as to who will win, but describes the circumstances of the match.

We see that Venus applies a trine to Mars, which again is descriptive, in that Arsenal, being at home, and the previous victors, are the ones issuing the challenge to Real.

My perspective is that Real will have an advantage in this match.

My reasoning is this:

*Arsenal have an accidental dignity/debility score of 0.
*Arsenal are signified by Venus, a naturally submissive planet.
*The Ascendant, signifying Arsenal is conjunct the malefic South node.

*Real have an accidental dignity/debility score of 2.
*Real are signified by Mars, a naturally dominant planet.
*The Descendant, signifying Real, is conjunct the benefic North node.
*Real, is conjunct fixed star Aldebaran which is of the same nature of their significator, Mars. It is the 'Bull's-Eye', a martial star associated with conquest.
* Real is applying conjunction with the proper PoF (night formula).

All in all, I identify 3 indications of defeat for Arsenal, and 5 indications of victory for Real.

We'll have to wait and see.

Also Goca, remember when I interpreted your horary, and I did it wrong because I attributed Arsenal to the first house, forgetting that it should have been Real, because this is who you wanted to win. Well, even if I mistakenly interpreted, this chart made it clear that Real would be victorious.

I think that when we quite unconciously make a mistake in interpreting a horary, either with the calculations or the interpretative technique, then this is synchronicity in action, as synchronicity works through the unconcious. In short, the mistake happens for a reason.

So taking the horary I interpreted, along with the event chart as well, I feel that Real Madrid will likely be the victors.

Even though, being English, I would prefer the native English team to win, I don't think this will be the case.

I really hope I am right and I eagerly await the outcome.

Draco

Goca!

I have now found out what the official founding dates of each team were, and now can offer more information upon this event.

Real Madrid officially formed on the 6th of March, 1902 by the Prados and Palacios brother's under the name 'Madrid Football'.

Arsenal officially formed on the 1st December, 1886, following a meeting at the Royal Oak public house under the name 'Royal Arsenal'.

I have recently found out about a technique called the 'Accidental Ascendant' used by Evangeline Adams.

This involves talking the date of both teams official founding, and then rotating the charts, so that the Ascendant for the event becomes the Ascendant in each of the charts. The charts are then analysed for strengths and weaknesses in comparison according to the degree which rises when the event begins.

Here is the Accidental Event Ascendant for the founding chart of Arsenal:



Here is the Accidental Event Ascendant for the founding chart of Real:



Now let's analyse these.

Something that stands out as being very significant to me in both of these charts is the very detrimental state of combustion.

As Libra is on the rise, then Venus represents the team in question in both charts. In Arsenal's case, this is not good, because in the Arsenal chart Venus is combust, so we might say that whenever Arsenal play a match with Venus or Taurus on the Ascendant then this is not a good influence for them in general, because this brings their native combusted Venus to the fore. We see that the Descendant of the Arsenal chart is in Aries, making their opponents, in this case Real Madrid, Mars. Mars in the Arsenal chart is in it's exaltation of Capricorn, and given a strong accidental dignity by it's exact conjunction with the 4th cusp. So when Arsenal play when a Venusian sign is rising, then it is not good for them, because not only does it bring out their combusted Venus, but exalts their opponents, because Mars will be on the Descendant at such times. In this case especially so, due to Mars' conjunction with the Imum Coeli. So we could say that the best time for Arsenal to play a match is with a Martial sign rising, because this makes them represented by their own exalted Mars, and their opponents combusted Venus.

In the Real Madrid chart, again, Real are Venus, and so their opponents Arsenal are Mars. We see again, in the Real chart, that Mars this time, is combust by the Sun, so in both cases, both in the Arsenal and the Real charts, that Arsenal is represented by a planet that is in combustion, and this is not good for Arsenal. The opposite can be said for Real as we said for Arsenal earlier, that if Real play when a Venusian sign is rising, then this is good for them, because this combusts their opponents significator, if they play when a Martial sign is rising, then this is not good, because then it brings out their own combust planet.

Do you see what I mean?

So we can see that when a Venusian sign rises, then this is a very bad time for Arsenal to play anyone, but particularly against Real Madrid. Especially the time of this event, because Arsenal's opponents are strongly accidentally dignified on Arsenal's IC. It could be said that this shows Real getting under Arsenal's feet.

Remember though, that Arsenal playing a match when a Venusian sign rises does not necessarily indicate that Arsenal will win, nor does it suggest that Real will necessarily win when playing a match when a Martial sign rises, it simply gives them a certain advantage. Whether this advantage is borne out to victory or not, should be supported by observations in the radical event chart, and according to the event chart, I felt that Real have more of an advantage. So, taking the event chart and these Accidental Ascendant charts together in consideration, it is my belief that it is indicated that Real Madrid are the most likely victors.

Draco

Hi Draco!
You awake so early to post this?! Thank you!
Nice thoughts, nice explanations, I will print this your post, I have a lot to learn from it!
I did not understand 'Accidental Ascendant' used by Evangeline Adams until now, but with your examples now I do! You are great educator!

Hi Goca,

Thankyou for your compliments

Now we just need to see if Real really will have the advantage over Arsenal, but according to the astrology, I think they probably will.

I wasn't too sure about the Accidental Ascendant technique myself, so I needed to try it out to see if the way I thought it worked was right and to see what it might reveal.

I think it is a useful technique because it could have so many potential applications. For example, in a relationship: the birth dates of the two people and the accidental Ascendant for the time that they met, which might reveal things about their relationship, or the accidental Ascendant for the time two people are making a deal or getting married.

It might be interesting to experiment with this technique in future with sports horaries especially.

Draco

As you, I experiment too, with these accidental dignities and debilities and I do not know how all will end. But I am know too, that noone method is 100% successful...

Match ended with 0:0!
It was unbelievable interesting match, with quick change of situation (cardinal signs in angles), with lot of chances on both sides, with lot of tension (Moon in Can), only goals missed! In my opinion, this results is quite real.
This was the last match that Arsenal played on Highbury (Windemiatrix) and next matches will be played on new, modern stadium.

On UEFA site you could read: "Heavy rain gave way to a slight drizzle at the start when, from their own kick-off, Madrid began an intense spell of possession football - using the full dimensions of the narrow Highbury pitch to express their attacking mood." (Aldebaran)

Oh no!

Egg on my face!

I was wrong! I was so sure that Real would win according to the charts. What went wrong? I suppose I'll just have to keep trying. I really felt confident that I had identified the winner in the chart. On well, we learn from our mistakes as much as our successes. I just wonder what went wrong as Real, according to the chart, really did seem to have the advantage, and perhaps they did, but didn't make the best of that potential.

Draco

On well, we learn from our mistakes as much as our successes.

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That is the point! I agree. and do not think I am so smarth, I was just lucky! I never decide upon one sign, I always want to check out few methods before I decide. But very often I am wrong too. But practice makes specialist! So, I 'll try always!