Grand Trine + T-Square

As I learn my birth chart more, there are a couple of major aspects in it that I'm trying to figure out how to put together. I have a grand trine between my Leo Sun, Sagittarius Moon, and Jupiter/IC in Aries. The IC point is conjunct both Jupiter and Chiron, and Jupiter and Chiron are conjunct each other, but different versions of my birth chart give differing interpretations on whether or not Jupiter, Chiron, or both is in trine with both my sun and moon.

And then that same point is on a T-square. It opposes Uranus at the MC, and both of them are squared by Saturn from Cancer in the seventh house.

I'm attaching my chart for convenience, but I don't need this thread to be all about me. All I'm really after is learning more about how grand trines and T-squares work, and what happens if they share a point.

IMO, the orbs are too great for a grand trine but you do have two T-Squares, a Cardinal one and a combination other one.

The cardinal T-Square is very powerful and very high friction.

The mutable Tsquare to Venus-Mercury and the cardinal Tsquare to Saturn are related by a quincux (inconjunct) between mutable Mars and Cardinal Uranus. Quincuxes are very irritating or motivating, whether they are bugging or or stimulating you at the time.

Analyze the Tsquares one at a time. The mutable T is softened by two sextiles, to Saturn and to Pluto. I consider that is gravitas that keeps you from flying off the handle.

The Cardinal T is softened by two things as well, the Mars-Saturn harmony and the fire trine you originally asked about. I think it is fortunate to have a fire trine as a background stability to your chart. Grand trines are naturally stable, like having a kettle continually on simmer in your hearth. Sun and moon trined is already a fine situation to counter any disruptions you encounter in the operation of your Tsquare 'dynamos'.

As a dialogue.... need to have the OP return to the thread.

Zarathu said:

IMO, the orbs are too great for a grand trine

Click to expand...

For the sake of argument, let's say it is a grand trine. There are differing opinions on how wide orbs can be for aspects to be felt, and I haven't formed my own opinion on that yet, so I want to look at it from both angles. If it is a grand trine, how would you folks expect it to play out in my life (or the life of anyone else with the same configuration)? If it really isn't a grand trine, then whatever you throw out, I won't identify with at all.

I did, however, once have someone interpret it as a grand trine, and this person told me that whenever they'd seen that kind of grand trine (I don't remember exactly what they meant by that kind of grand trine--maybe it was the houses involved or the planets involved or the signs involved or grand trines in general)--the chart's owner turned out to either have a disability or be closely involved with disabled people, ie being a special ed teacher or having a disabled child or sibling. What this person did not know when they gave me this interpretation was that I've worked with the handicapped at more than one time in my life and I have hidden disabilities myself. So that grand trine interpretation holds. However, that can't be the only interpretation, so I want to know more!

Zarathu said:

but you do have two T-Squares, a Cardinal one and a combination other one.

Click to expand...

I hadn't realized I have another one. Is it Mars, Mercury, and the moon you're looking at, or something else?

Zarathu said:

The cardinal T-Square is very powerful and very high friction.

Click to expand...

And what does that mean in terms of how it might be reflected in my life?

helgaleena said:

The mutable Tsquare to Venus-Mercury and the cardinal Tsquare to Saturn are related by a quincux (inconjunct) between mutable Mars and Cardinal Uranus. Quincuxes are very irritating or motivating, whether they are bugging or or stimulating you at the time.

Click to expand...

Quincunxes are one aspect I hadn't gotten around to doing much with yet, and I'm still trying to understand squares, but getting there. So, as I understand it... quincunxes are parts of life or the psyche that feel incompatible and have to be compartmentalized in the mind, while squares are differing desires that might build on each other, although with friction between them, which might slow down or hinder one or more of the planetary messages involved, or might create just enough spark to keep it going... am I correct?

And then T-squares also include oppositions, and oppositions are opposite desires that could be met with a compromise, such as one weekend I go out and party heavily and have a good time and another weekend I stay home alone and enjoy the solitude. (Not that I personally go to those extremes--if I do go out and enjoy a party, it's a mellow party, and I can't stay home all alone for a whole weekend without going crazy--that's just an example.)

helgaleena said:

Analyze the Tsquares one at a time. The mutable T is softened by two sextiles, to Saturn and to Pluto. I consider that is gravitas that keeps you from flying off the handle.

Click to expand...

The general sense I get from my birth chart--and it also makes sense if I look at my own personality in this light--is that I have lots of impulsivity circuits fired up but then checked by something else. The result is that I am not a very impulsive person, but I would be if not for those checks and balances.

helgaleena said:

The Cardinal T is softened by two things as well, the Mars-Saturn harmony and the fire trine you originally asked about. I think it is fortunate to have a fire trine as a background stability to your chart. Grand trines are naturally stable, like having a kettle continually on simmer in your hearth. Sun and moon trined is already a fine situation to counter any disruptions you encounter in the operation of your Tsquare 'dynamos'.

Click to expand...

I hadn't thought about it before, but Mars is in sextile to Saturn! And Saturn bears some exploration in and of itself. It's the ruler of my ascendant, so would be the ruler of my chart, but it's in its fall sign, and it makes those squares, so I am interested in what it's actually doing for me (or to me?).

I like that image of a kettle continually on simmer. I have looked at my sun/moon trine in this light: with the sun in the eighth house and the moon in the twelfth house, and the sun in the sign of ultimate personality development and the moon in the sign of growth, learning, and expansion, it seems that what my personality would want and what my deepest desires would be equate to learning, growing, and deeply transformative and transcendent experiences... and indeed, that is what I'm constantly seeking out. Many of those experiences have some relationship to healing, as well... perhaps that speaks to the Jupiter/Chiron conjunction?

I think the best book written about T squares was by Tracy Marks. She originally titled it Understanding your T-square, but it's been reissued as Planetary Aspects. They are like energy engines. The squares are like construction elements, that can choose to obstruct or to structure, like stepping stones. The oppositions are like balance or tension structures, pulling opposite ways. The energies are focused by the common planet of the two squares into a mighty mechanism, balancing a blank on the other side of your chart.

I think you can look into the meanings of these harmonic elements on your own. They really will cheer you up!

Osamenor said:

As I learn my birth chart more, there are a couple of major aspects in it that I'm trying to figure out how to put together. I have a grand trine between my Leo Sun, Sagittarius Moon, and Jupiter/IC in Aries.........
I'm really after is learning more about how grand trines and T-squares work, and what happens if they share a point.

Click to expand...

I would consider the Sun-Moon-Jupiter to make up a grand trine because the luminaries are within the 10* max. orb allowed. Moon is moving (growing) into the aspect, making it stronger, and not out of it (already inherent). I must have subconsciously picked up on Helgaleena's comment because I was going to say something similar to describe its FIRE quality, i.e. a continuously burning inner flame like having a kettle continually on simmer in your hearth. The grand trine aspect picks up Chiron through the conjunction with Jupiter, although it is not officially part of it.
Maybe Moon's solar arc direction to Chiron at approx. 13 years-14 of age 'clinched' its wounding/therapeutic/healing quality into the grand trine.

A grand trine is generally seen as a laid back, easy to manage part of one's self that aids in life. Yet it can also make one lazy, not try to face difficulties. A square aspect is generally seen as the harsh and difficult circumstances that are inclined to put a spoke in the wheel of that easy-going way of life. Yet if there is no push and shove from the square aspect(s), life and circumstances would never change; there would be no individual progress to engage in.

FIRE is full of (inner)get up and go, enthusiasm, and optimism, in that order. It envisages new ideas, gives them a creative form, upon which they can grow and expand in understanding, also in that order. It is, however, in itself all in spirit of nature. There is no EARTH to provide the material substance and structure to give it outer form, no AIR to provide the mental abstract flexibility of change, no WATER to provide the imaginative feeling, all of which can help the spirit of the FIRE cart to actually go forward in further development of its creative potential. That is the drive of the (T)-squares in a chart: OR the brake that prevents the movement ever occuring through the sign and house realms that provide the circumstances to work with and/or overcome.

Hopefully, you can work out for yourself how the equations fit into your own chart.

Osamenor said:

For the sake of argument, let's say it is a grand trine. There are differing opinions on how wide orbs can be for aspects to be felt, and I haven't formed my own opinion on that yet, so I want to look at it from both angles. If it is a grand trine, how would you folks expect it to play out in my life (or the life of anyone else with the same configuration)? If it really isn't a grand trine, then whatever you throw out, I won't identify with at all.

I did, however, once have someone interpret it as a grand trine, and this person told me that whenever they'd seen that kind of grand trine (I don't remember exactly what they meant by that kind of grand trine--maybe it was the houses involved or the planets involved or the signs involved or grand trines in general)--the chart's owner turned out to either have a disability or be closely involved with disabled people, i.e. being a special ed teacher or having a disabled child or sibling. What this person did not know when they gave me this interpretation was that I've worked with the handicapped at more than one time in my life and I have hidden disabilities myself. So that grand trine interpretation holds. However, that can't be the only interpretation, so I want to know more!

I hadn't realized I have another one. Is it Mars, Mercury, and the moon you're looking at, or something else?


And what does that mean in terms of how it might be reflected in my life?

Click to expand...

Other people will have to do that for you in regards to a grand trine. Since you don't have one that is sufficient for the orbs, it would be unethical for me as a professional astrologer to pretend that you have one and then give you a delineation for it.

As to the T--Squares, they are elements in a total picture of how you think about the world. They are tied up with the current emotional and mental crises that are currently impacting you, and how you deal with change and how change comes upon you. And the T-Squares are central modifiers in your brain structures(reptile brain: ASC; Limbic system(feelings): the Moon; and cognition: Mercury-Jupiter-Saturn-Asteroid Psyche.

In my opinion, you cannot separate things out and look for a silver bullet of what they mean. They only mean things in context of the whole. If you want to explore that, I would be happy to do so, but it will require a bit of introspection on your part.

Frisiangal said:

I would consider the Sun-Moon-Jupiter to make up a grand trine because the luminaries are within the 10* max. orb allowed. Moon is moving (growing) into the aspect, making it stronger, and not out of it (already inherent).

Click to expand...

Makes sense. And I didn't think about this, but it does make intuitive sense to consider where the various planets are moving in relation to an aspect and not just the aspect itself. Moving into the aspect would mean a planet is gaining the quality of the aspect, and moving out of the aspect would mean the aspect's quality is fading from that planet.

Frisiangal said:

I must have subconsciously picked up on Helgaleena's comment because I was going to say something similar to describe its FIRE quality, i.e. a continuously burning inner flame like having a kettle continually on simmer in your hearth. The grand trine aspect picks up Chiron through the conjunction with Jupiter, although it is not officially part of it.
Maybe Moon's solar arc direction to Chiron at approx. 13 years-14 of age 'clinched' its wounding/therapeutic/healing quality into the grand trine.

Click to expand...

Again, that makes sense, and the emphasis in healing/learning types of growth didn't start to manifest until my late adolescence. Would also explain why I sense Chiron to play some role in the grand trine.

Frisiangal said:

FIRE is full of (inner)get up and go, enthusiasm, and optimism, in that order. It envisages new ideas, gives them a creative form, upon which they can grow and expand in understanding, also in that order. It is, however, in itself all in spirit of nature. There is no EARTH to provide the material substance and structure to give it outer form, no AIR to provide the mental abstract flexibility of change, no WATER to provide the imaginative feeling, all of which can help the spirit of the FIRE cart to actually go forward in further development of its creative potential.

Click to expand...

Although, all these fire signs are in water houses (Jupiter is technically in an air house but on the cusp of water). Wouldn't house elements be added to that mix?

Frisiangal said:

That is the drive of the (T)-squares in a chart: OR the brake that prevents the movement ever occuring through the sign and house realms that provide the circumstances to work with and/or overcome.

Click to expand...

Hmmm... seems like it could be either drive or brake, or both at once! Next thing to do is investigate T-squares further.

@helgaleena: thanks for the book recommendation. I'll look into it.

Moon is in cedent house and so I concur with Zarathu that it is not part of Grand Trine, although my reasoning is different.

Saturn, the ASC lord at the apex seems to be weak due to presence in detrimental sign Cancer. I'd suggest you to focus on this. You are best to explain, how does this affect you.

Good Luck

Osamenor said:

Moving into the aspect would mean a planet is gaining the quality of the aspect, and moving out of the aspect would mean the aspect's quality is fading from that planet.

Click to expand...

Astrologers will have different perspectives regarding the aspect, yet I don't think any would say that a natal quality 'fades' if it is the planet that is separating. I'd be inclined to say that the individual has managed to (fully) incorporate its meaning in how it handles the situations of daily life to which the aspect refers.

all these fire signs are in water houses (Jupiter is technically in an air house but on the cusp of water). Wouldn't house elements be added to that mix?

Click to expand...

Jupiter, however, is retrograde in the natal chart. I'm one of those rebellious astrologers who say it's where it is for a reason. In the course of a natural lifetime, it will never turn direct, meaning it will never enter the 4th, water influenced, house. So, how can it acclaim to influencing that house???? During its progressed retrograde it did however make an exact trine to natal Sun (in the late 30's). It would be interesting to know how it worked out, especially as both Sun and Jupiter as fire planets rule the water houses.
Charts like yours are ideal study material because they can prove or disprove any theory.

House elements obviously influence how a theme plays out.
E.g. Does fire become inwardly or outwardly stronger in expressing its emotional sensitivity through inner/outer (according to house)
knowledge gained?
Would Earth be able to provide the visible proof necessary regarding how one deals with emotional circumstances. Is there a necessity for Air to become outwardly self assertive? How and through which house
circumstances do they do that?

Just my 1/2 cent's worth. Others may see differently and be worth more.

I consider it a grand trine...but...really, so what. The fire element grand trine has almost no active energy ....so I'm not gonna address it except to say with the conflicts and challenges you have in your chart it's good to see that it's not all stress.

You have a LOT of conflict. And that inconjunct deserves a lot of study on its own. Inconjuncts are aspects of maladjustment....not of conflicting impulses as squares and oppositions are. The 2 energies are always in a subliminal battle and the issues they present are not necessarily concious. So....focus on the big stuff.
And my opinion is that an inconjunct IS big...because it is much less common than other aspects and has only a 2 and a half degree orb. If you have one, then those areas of the chart need deep meditation and study.

Not to say t-squares are not difficult. They are....but at some point the issues become conscious and therefore workable.

Also, if you are looking to work on your chart, pay attention to that Neptune-Moon conjunction. That is very powerful because, again, it's not necessarily conscious or immediate..tho it's always with you and probably affects all you do in some way.


LIN

Frisiangal said:

Astrologers will have different perspectives regarding the aspect, yet I don't think any would say that a natal quality 'fades' if it is the planet that is separating. I'd be inclined to say that the individual has managed to (fully) incorporate its meaning in how it handles the situations of daily life to which the aspect refers.

Click to expand...

Ah... so the moon moving into the grand trine would mean it's something to be incorporated in this lifetime!

Frisiangal said:

Jupiter, however, is retrograde in the natal chart. I'm one of those rebellious astrologers who say it's where it is for a reason. In the course of a natural lifetime, it will never turn direct, meaning it will never enter the 4th, water influenced, house. So, how can it acclaim to influencing that house????

Click to expand...

The way I understand it, anything on a sign or house cusp has some influences and motivations of both of the signs that it straddles. So it's not a case of Jupiter influencing my fourth house, but of Jupiter being influenced by the fourth house to some degree.

Frisiangal said:

During its progressed retrograde it did however make an exact trine to natal Sun (in the late 30's). It would be interesting to know how it worked out, especially as both Sun and Jupiter as fire planets rule the water houses.

Click to expand...

That would be right now, if by late 30's you mean my age. I'm 39. And honestly, of all the planets, Jupiter is one I understand the least (along with Neptune). Maybe I have so much trouble with those because of the positions they occupy in my chart? Seems like a retrograde Jupiter on the IC would have more of an unconscious influence, and as another poster points out in this thread, Neptune conjunct moon would also be unconscious.

Lin said:

I consider it a grand trine...but...really, so what. The fire element grand trine has almost no active energy ....so I'm not gonna address it except to say with the conflicts and challenges you have in your chart it's good to see that it's not all stress.

You have a LOT of conflict. And that inconjunct deserves a lot of study on its own. Inconjuncts are aspects of maladjustment....not of conflicting impulses as squares and oppositions are. The 2 energies are always in a subliminal battle and the issues they present are not necessarily concious. So....focus on the big stuff.
And my opinion is that an inconjunct IS big...because it is much less common than other aspects and has only a 2 and a half degree orb. If you have one, then those areas of the chart need deep meditation and study.

Not to say t-squares are not difficult. They are....but at some point the issues become conscious and therefore workable.

Also, if you are looking to work on your chart, pay attention to that Neptune-Moon conjunction. That is very powerful because, again, it's not necessarily conscious or immediate..tho it's always with you and probably affects all you do in some way.


LIN

Click to expand...

I like all the advice you have been given, including Lin's--- except I think it is unfair to call an inconjunct a 'maladjustment'-- more of a spur or a ticklish spot.

helgaleena said:

I like all the advice you have been given, including Lin's--- except I think it is unfair to call an inconjunct a 'maladjustment'-- more of a spur or a ticklish spot.

Click to expand...

And that... combination of your and Lin's comments... helps me see what you meant when you mentioned the inconjunct a couple of posts back. I agree, it is worth study.

I've read a little about inconjuncts online, and here's what I got: inconjunct means pieces of the psyche that are unconsciously kept separate. Astro Cafe gives the examples of a woman who is a wife and mother and feels that she can't meet her husband's needs and her children's needs at once, that she has to keep those two roles separate, and of a man who feels that marriage is incompatible with satisfying sexuality, so, while married, seeks out affairs on the side. I don't have those kinds of conflicts going on (and I don't have the planets that were used in those examples in my inconjunct either), so I'm not sure how it's playing out for me.

And you call an inconjunct a spur. That sounds like it could be a prod to action and growth. In what way?

helgaleena said:

I think the best book written about T squares was by Tracy Marks. She originally titled it Understanding your T-square, but it's been reissued as Planetary Aspects.

Click to expand...

I now have that book and have read part of it. It's raised some more questions for me.

First of all, it seems like that cardinal T-square fits her definition of strong or very strong: angular placements and the focal planet almost right on the midpoint. The mutable T-square that someone mentioned in this thread might not even meet her definition of a T-square. While I have Mars and the moon both squared by Mercury, they're not within the orb of opposition with each other by any stretch of the imagination, so how can that be a T-square?

One of the suggestions Marks makes for working with the T-square is to imagine the empty sign's ruler in conjunction with the focal planet. But what if the focal planet is the empty sign's ruler? Marks never addresses that at all, and in my case, the empty sign (Capricorn) is ruled by Saturn, the focal planet of the T-square.

I think that if the ruler of the empty quadrant is participating in the T, its importance as a key to understanding is highlighted!

One important thing about dealing with a Yod (double inconjunct) it which way 'the finger of God' points. With a single inconjunct, there is no direction weighted either way, so in this, it is more like an opposition. Neither participating planet 'wins', but they spread any reaction involving one end to the other end right away, like an embedded splinter.

I hope this helps.

helgaleena said:

I think that if the ruler of the empty quadrant is participating in the T, its importance as a key to understanding is highlighted!

Click to expand...

Thanks for that. I think I need at least one whole other thread to explore my Saturn!

Still don't feel much closer to understanding those complex aspects, but maybe I know more than I think.

Osamenor said:

Thanks for that. I think I need at least one whole other thread to explore my Saturn!

Still don't feel much closer to understanding those complex aspects, but maybe I know more than I think.

Click to expand...

Since the empty quadrant we are talking about is your first house, I'd say it may help to act more Saturnine. It's how your sevnth house will play out, anyway