question: horary and logic

Okay I got one

do you guys use logic or completely rely on planets when you read horaries?

i am curious!

thanks,
Tik

Hello Tik! What shall I say? I draw the chart and usually, after the initial obligatory rules (I go by rules) I get a spontaneous good or bad feeling, a yes or no feeling about the chart (I go by intuition as well, so that rules out logic I suppose) and then I start verifying, again, according to the rules, if my feelings are justified. I finish by looking at the end of the matter situation, always. I sometimes do the "yes" or "no" answers according to the good or the bad aspects. Squares are no no's, trines are a yes. (this is what Karin Hamaaker-Zondag, a Dutch astrologer, does sometimes). So, I rely on planets and intuition. What do you do?

hey Starlink

I rely on planets and plausability.

i saw one chart about a year ago someone phrased a question "have i been abducted by UFOs last night?"

it had neptune ruling 9th house in a trine with a significator. 90% people said yes. i was just scratching my head with this one.

i was just going through my email box and finding old horaries.

shrug
Tik

Dont bother replying to ridiculous Horary questions. They will get just as ridiculous responses and answers. Use your logic and discretion

Astro.Teacher

Well yeah! it is illogical question..

here is another one..

there is a thread going on on 1 astro board. I dont want ot get into specifics but it is an event chart.
A bunch of people think that this event happend in perfectly possible way HOWEVER, it is impossible to have it happen there.

so i am wondering do people actually look at things LOGICALLY before they jump their astroguns?

so i am wondering do people actually look at things LOGICALLY before they jump their astroguns?

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You will find MANY people try to PROVE something the way it happened rather than stating what Astrology says happened. They just want Astrology to be right, and more importantly, want to look right themselves.

that is exactly what pisses me off

thing is .. the chart is right. they are not reading the chart right.

shrug
let's hope police catches the burglar. LOL then i will rub into their faces.

moving on to the next phase

Tik

I try to rely on the planets, but now that you mention about inaccurate answers conforming to dumb questions, I know I mentioned this before, but like other forms of divination, can Horary be influenced by our own wants and needs?....Not influenced to the point where you're actually going to get what you want, but influenced to give you the answer you want. Or does this only occur with tunnel vision, a person ignoring the rest of the chart?
Blandy

Blandy

the question was

who broke into the store and how they did it

there is no evidence of any kind of break in. it is not inside job.

peopel bend planets to prove their own theory.

i just cant wait for lab results

Tik

Ive read a few times in the texts ive had that an Astrologer should be VERY careful about the charts he chooses to read. Many of them can show that they will in fact defile the reputation of the Astrologer if they choose to interpret them. These warnings are especially discussed in a lot of Horary Astrology writings (in fact I believe its even mentioned in the Geomancy text I have on my website as well).

Astroteacher, you are right about the ridiculous questions. I dont even bother to answer them. I actually only go for serious questions or lost objects. Questions like "will he love me" is really too shallow for me, honestly.

Blandy, yes, you can be biased for sure. Draco once mentioned this in a thread where his mother asked him to find her glasses or something, cant remember now. He then went about it the wrong way because he wanted the anwer to be positive. Later he saw how his own wish had influenced the way he looked at the chart and how he had overlooked the obvious (right) answer.

Starlink

i have a run a question once does he love me.. honestly, I must agree with you.. love cannot be measured by horary. i dont think it is possible even to answer it.

shrug
my 4 cents on the issue

Tik

Questions like "will he love me" is really too shallow for me, honestly.

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I have to agree completely. I dont like answering "love" questions. I find thats one area that Horary gets abused immensly because of the insecurity of people and their lack of ability to communicate with one another.

do you guys use logic or completely rely on planets when you read horaries?

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I don't really understand the question which is why it's taken me so long to respond on this.

I don't understand the question, because the process of deciphering what is going on in the chart with the interaction of significators, is in itself, a logical process.

I think that what you are referring to, is are we simply guessing upon likelyhoods, or are we deriving our answers entirely from the chart, and the answer is a bit of both.

For example, a woman asks if she will concieve a child, but she cannot just ask that, without any important background information. For example, woman 'A' has had difficulty conceiving in the past, and is approaching the menopause, woman 'B' is a young girl just into her twenties, has no known fertility problems, and comes from a family of very fertile females. What this means is, that for woman A, we need a considerably stronger testimony that she will concieve than we do for woman B, who would only require a weak testimony, if any, to produce a postive outcome. For when a chart appears not to be providing any sure testimony either way, we must resort to answering the question quite simply according to what is most likely, which is perfectly acceptable.

There are those who feel that a horary astrologer should be able to find out the age of the woman, her fertility status etc. just from looking at the chart, but this is unrealistic and unfair. The essential background information accompanying a horary question is important, so that the astrologer can determine the likelyhood of a positive or negative testimony in advance, and this isn't cheating, it is a very important part, and the initial part, of the process of judgement.

For example, can you imagine walking into a doctor's office, and simply asking 'Am I ill?'? The doctor would then, quite naturally, expect you to tell him what your symptoms are, in order for him to be able to deliver a judgement. Upon asking what your symptoms are by a doctor, no one would dream of stating, 'You tell me, you're the doctor!', and yet this is exactly what many people expect of astrologers, which is quite amusing for it's naivety really. It's infuriating, but cute, that people deem us to wield such extraordinary powers.

Those who ask silly questions like 'Does he love me?', makes me wonder why they do not simply ask him. If they feel that they cannot ask him this question for any reason, he doesn't. Simple.

However, this is another reason that detailed background information is so very important, because we cannot determine that the question is as petty and trivial as we presume without knowing the circumstances out of which it has arisen.

If you think about that post you dismissed because the question was 'Does he love me?', having asked a few question of the querent, that question may not seem so stupid at all.

What if the querent is a little boy that gets beaten black and blue by his father everyday, and is concerned to know whether the father actually has any affection for him?

What if the querent is a school-girl who has a huge crush on her teacher, and wonders if there is any possibility that he feels that same? To our adult perspective, this seems silly, but if this concern is dominating her every waking moment, it's obviously not silly to her.

So before dismissing certain questions as rubbish, you're as well to ask about the context out of which that question has emerged. However, if the querent had followed the rules and provided the necessary background, this wouldn't be necessary anyway, but even with the information supplied, it is still often necessary to inquire after more detail.

There are questions in the horary forum that I do not consider to be appropriate, but I often do respond to them, sometimes to point this out, sometimes, because even if the horary is not a valid one, then the person can still be informed upon certain aspects of horary that they demonstrate that they do not know. It has to be remembered, that to a beginner in horary, it is quite natural to be casting chart after chart upon all sorts of trivia, but this is good for practice and essential for them to do in order to get used to using horary techniques. So it's easy to brand someone a fool, but often, it may be that because they are a beginner or a stranger to horary, they may not be aware of these things, so it's probably better to point this out to them than ignore them, but first, we must grill them mercilessly to extract all the necessary information from them concerning the context out of which the question has arisen, and only then can we decide if the question is right for horary or not, and if not, explain why.

In any case, as I'm meant to moderate the horary section, I feel somewhat obliged to respond to posts, even those that appear silly to some of us.

who broke into the store and how they did it

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Tikana, please will you link me to this. I hope I'm not one of the one's being accused of guess-work without an astrological analysis.

I try to rely on the planets

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Try? What else might you be looking at?

like other forms of divination, can Horary be influenced by our own wants and needs?....

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Horary is quite unlike any other form of divination. In astrology, those of us who are so inclined, with aptitude, are privelaged enough to be working with the Powers That Be, which shape our lives, and this is quite different to throwing Tarot cards around on a table. The indescribable majesty of creation is hardly comparable to a deck of cards. However, those who think that an asteroid will take upon mystical characteristics according to the name that it was randomly alloted would disagree, seeing as their stance presumes that we are the ones that influence the heavens, rather than the other way round. You'll notice that asteroids such as 'Dick' and 'Wanke' are given a wide birth by asteroid fans however, as is the vast majority of the thousands of them, usually the ones without pretty names.

So no, the outcome of a horary cannot be influenced by our own hopes and needs, which is why it is wise not to ask questions to which we would rather not see a terrible answer if we know we wouldn't be able to handle it. We should also beware of asking questions in which we have a strong emotional investment, particularly those concerning famiily and friends, because we will be focusing upon those hopes and wishes, and twist even the most dire indications into a positive testimony, or vice-versa.

Bear in mind however, that I said 'beware of', not that we should refrain from asking such questions all together, as this is cowardice and will not teach you anything by experience. It is necessary to make cock-ups of this nature in order to understand exactly how it occurs and how to avoid doing it again.

This leads onto to something that Starlink mentioned:

Draco once mentioned this in a thread where his mother asked him to find her glasses or something, cant remember now. He then went about it the wrong way because he wanted the anwer to be positive. Later he saw how his own wish had influenced the way he looked at the chart and how he had overlooked the obvious (right) answer.

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http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3636

My problem here was, that I absolutely discounted the obvious and initial things that the chart was trying to say. 'What? Early ascendant, and the significators of her and the money are one and the same? Surely not, that must be wrong!'. As far as I was concerned I was set upon identifying a thief in the chart, and fuelled by anger and feeling protective of my Mum, I had no time for other answers, I even had the audacity to argue with the cosmos! When I realised that having discounted the immediate and obvious testimonies and that the money was not lost, but just needed to be located, and that having considered this, I could have done so easily, and proved myself as an astrologer to boot, I really felt like an idiot. It was however, a valuable lesson.

Since then, when interpreting charts for family and friends, I have never allowed mine or their own feelings or assertions get in the way, to the extent that I would discount obvious things in favour of pleasing them with what they would rather hear.

For example, I have a sister that had started a new job, and was getting along very well in it, and one day while talking to her about astrology, I looked at the chart for the time at which she had first attended for her first days work.

I asked her if just prior to starting the job, if the employers wife had just recovered from an illness. She raised her eyebrows and was astonished, as this was indeed the case. I was pleasantly piqued as well.

Now, the thing is, according to this chart, I told her that it was unlikely that she would continue in this job, and I felt that she would lose the job and that this would somehow be something to do with payment being withheld. The thing is, she simply could not agree with this, because everything was going so well with the job, and she got on fine with her boss, often sharing a laugh and a joke with him. She was adamant that there must be something wrong with my interpretation, even despite the taster I gave her about the bosses wife having been ill, she just wouldn't have it about losing the job, even more so, that according to the timing, that she would lose this job imminently!

Now, given that she was so very confident that everything was going beautifully at work, this gave me cause to doubt myself, but I am wiser thesedays due to past experiences, I knew better than to be trying to twist a happy interpretion out of this in order to assuage our optimistic feelings - so I stuck to my guns, none the less, doubting myself.

I was contacted by my sister the very next day. She had been dismissed from work about a dispute that she had with her boss, over pay that he had deducted unfairly, hence, my interpretation was perfect (thankyou, God x), but only because I did not give in to neither my or her emotional investment in the situation.

She is now aware that our feelings or our adamancy that we already know what is what, cannot effect the message that a chart, casted appropriately, has to relate, and that if I am acting appropriately, I must keep my feelings out of the way. As such, she also knows better than to ask questions to which she would rather not know of an upsetting answer.

love cannot be measured by horary. i dont think it is possible even to answer it.

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This is absolutely untrue. An astrologer cannot dismiss a branch of horary because they have failed to have success with it personally, for their own lack of knowledge or experience.

Love horaries are the easiest of all to interpret. There is such a thing as astrologers who specialise in love horary, and love horary actually forms a branch of horary astrology in it's own right.

Love most certainly can be measured by horary, the trouble is, it can be measured far too accurately for most people's liking, as in love more than in any other area of life, fantasy reigns. The last thing we need is for some grumpy, Saturnian horarist to come along and burst our bubble with the facts (and horarists usually are Saturnians). This again brings us round to the consideration of not asking questions to which we would rather not have an unhappy answer that would trouble us. The trouble is, we do not always know of the possibility of an unhappy answer until we see it in the chart, and often, people just won't accept it, but I know better thesedays.

Draco

i guess i didnt explain how did i think f the question

My friend ages ago run a chart on her missing ring.
she lives in Mojave desert. It is nowhere near the water.
she went camping with her hubby near vegas, where there is NO WATER.
Anyway. i was scrollign through messages on yahoo messanger *archive* and i noticed that a few horary online friends we both have said "the ring is near the water!" The ruler of the question was VOC but everything was pointing to the water. If she had not been near the water how the hell did the ring show up in near the water "in horary"? BTW the ring was found in the car underneath the seat. Unless Volvo is ruled by some water sign, then it can explain water thingie.

Another question that is floating on all the boards. Missing Madeline, has anyone even thought of HOW the hell did the perpetrator got in the home to begin with? Parents say that they were gone for 45 minutes. HELLO, did anyone ask "why the hell did you leave your kids by themselves?" They should be charged with endangering kids. If this thing happend in the US, I bet my boots that they would arrest them and interrigate them. Besides the parents, has anyone seen sleeping Madeline? Is everyone absolutely sure that her own parents are not involved? You might think i am insane to think that her own parents are capable but in the past 10 years we have seen enough of "ohh who stole my baby?" Answer "you did!" JoBenet - 9 out 10, prolly her parents did it or were directly involved, Yates - drowned her own kids claiming that some black guy kidnapped her car with her kids, recent mass suicide this B*tch kills herself and the kids.
There is someone who asked that question "are parents involved" on astro.com but i dont know what to look for, so i cant answer it. I wish i could though.

Whole story has more holes than a fishing net

Regards
Tik

Hi Tikana.

Water signs symbolise so much more than water. They are also mute, because none of the creatures that symbolise them produce no sound. They are fertile because they all lay eggs in hundreds.

There is much more to a sign or a group of signs than the element associated with it.

Had the querents pointed out the fact that they were in the desert, the interpreters would have known that the ring being near water was not possible, which brings me back to my point about the fairness of detailed background information. A doctor cannot diagnose without knowing the symptoms, nor can an astrologer without being filled in on the context out of which the question arose. Did you read my last post? *rolls eyes* It seems obvious to me that you didn't even read my last post, because I constantly reiterate the importance of all the necessary background information, which if you'd read, you wouldn't still be questioning this. You didn't provide me with a link to the chart regarding the store theft either. As this is your thread, you ought to take the time to read the responses you are offered. (I would use a smiley here to not make it look like I'm being nasty or anything, but I'm writing this bit in edit, and unlike the old forum, we cannot use smileys in edit, which is disappointing).

Can you provide the charts?

HELLO, did anyone ask "why the hell did you leave your kids by themselves?"

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Indeed. I couldn't agree with you more. Had this couple not been a pair of doctors, specialists no less, they would have been reeled in as the prime suspects by now. However, I hardly think that they deserve this kind of anguish for such a relatively minor trangression. I don't believe there is any such thing as a perfect parent. 'Let he who is without sin.....'

If this thing happend in the US, I bet my boots that they would arrest them and interrigate them.

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I doubt it, not if they were on the right side of the economic scale, more so in the US than anywhere else, the UK is just as bad. I think I've mentioned before that had this been a working class family on a package holiday to Benidorm, the parents would have been hung, drawn and quartered in the press, not to mention that they would be being interrogated, never mind being granted an audience with the pope! This is what angers me about this case. If you hob-nob with the people that write the newspapers its all hearts and flowers, if you have a harder life anyway, its all about what evil and negligent parents you are.

Is everyone absolutely sure that her own parents are not involved?

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No. If you read my attempts at interpretation of the event chart on the Madeleine thread, I do actually make a hint in this direction, but I don't feel it's strong enough to make such a wild accusation, but there has been a question mark over my head since I observed this:

Let's look at the parents. I am a little suprised that the parents are embodied in Jupiter, the planet in it's domicile, as the parent's shouldn't be depicted as well dignified in this situation, furthermore Jupiter is in the first, the strongest of houses and the house it rules the cusp of, so very much at home. This makes Jupiter the Lord of the Geniture, or the planet that is equipped with the most power to act in the situation. This raises questions for me, because this does not seem to describe the distraught parents at their wits end, yet they are not described as powerless and helpless as we would expect, they're the strongest planet in the chart, so I'm going to have to draw a big question mark over that. Jupiter is still hampered however, in that it is retrograde and slow in motion, so the parents are in a position of strength, but hampered, pondering, deliberating and hesistant when they make this call - this worries me. Let's not forget either that the Scorpions Head, implying malefic knowledge, is conjoined with their ascendant.

This makes me question the parents role in this event. I am not trying to imply that they have any involvement with their daughter's disappearance, but I am questioning why they are not shown as powerless but as rather much in a position of control, aside from some hesistation and back-stepping. Jupiter not only rules the ascendant but rules the fourth cusp as well, therefore, this drama begins with the parents and will end with the parents.

I wonder if this reflects the parent's knowledge that the event is their own fault due to irresponsibility? Hopefully it is nothing darker.

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There is someone who asked that question "are parents involved" on astro.com but i dont know what to look for, so i cant answer it. I wish i could though.

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I wouldn't consider this valid anyway as the querent has no personal interest in the situation, bearing in mind that when I say 'personal interest', this doesnt mean the same as what a person might be casually interested in, I mean it is not in their interest to know, it's none of their business, just idle curiosity, and as the horoscope would reflect this, it cannot be expected to contain within it a reliable answer.

Draco, as usual, you do a great job in analysing and replying to questions. You are right in that we should not dismiss "silly questions" just like that. I do always read the story, then decide whether it is "silly", if you like, or if I should answer it. I will bear in mind though, like you suggested, to ask for more background info. I always seem to forget that. Thanks for reminding me as this can indeed change things.

The last thing we need is for some grumpy, Saturnian horarist to come along and burst our bubble with the facts (and horarists usually are Saturnians).

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Ha, ha, ha!! So true!

Ah me. I love doing 'love horary', but yeah, some people have a hard time with the truth of a chart. Buddha was right when he said, 'To desire is to suffer'.