The Twelfth House

MaeMae

MaeMae

Banned
truthfully offering -
every 12th house neptune thread i've ever read is about fishy folk trying to justify their stagnation in feelings and inspiration. ask them do they want to do the work to get over or out of it? most want to ruminate on it til it disappears.
12th house has no place for ego or self-will, sadly.
the tide carries these folks hither and thither, emotionally and spiritually.
who was the member who argued that 12th house wasn,t house of undoing - detrimented?
it's the darkness before the dawn.
sad thing is that most people in 12th house darkness never want to leave.
get over yourselves, your ego, your rationalizations, and give of yourself selflessly to the greater good.
pity the venus, mars folks stuck in the wrench of 12th illusion.
the'll never get over themselves.
the basic and general premise that is never learned by 12th housers is "Save Yourself!"
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
Now you see why I chose you Po Yi. Get the Cheese.

The 12th is a house of Dissolution. Our support is washed away. Our ship goes down in the storm and we are left at sea in a small boat with few resources. We are perhaps in a dense fog and can't take a sighting; we are disoriented -- and alone.

For those of you who believe that mankind is overdue for an Awakening, that our racial Ephiphany is on the doorstep, who hold to the dream of the Creation of the Ideal Man, and of the Ideal World, I will let Niccolo Machiavelli speak for me: "it is necessary for a prince to understand how to avail himself of the beast and the man. This has been figuratively taught to princes by ancient writers, who describe how Achilles and many other princes of old were given to the Centaur Chiron to nurse, who brought them up in his discipline; which means solely that, as they had for a teacher one who was half beast and half man, so it is necessary for a prince to know how to make use of both natures, and that one without the other is not durable." -- and he goes on to say "...many have pictured republics and principalities [let's call this "the human world" as it is today and has been since before history began] which in fact have never been known or seen, because how one lives is so far distant from how one ought to live, that he who neglects what is done for what ought to be done, sooner effects his ruin than his preservation; for a man who wishes to act entirely up to his professions of virtue soon meets with what destroys him among so much that is evil." -- The Prince

Before leaving Machiavelli, here is his thought regarding "the spirit of the times". "I believe also that he will be successful who directs his actions according to the spirit of the times, and that he whose actions do not accord with the times will not be successful. Because men are seen, in affairs that lead to the end which every man has before him, namely, glory and riches, to get there by various methods; one with caution, another with haste; one by force, another by skill; one by patience, another by its opposite; and each one succeeds in reaching the goal by a different method. One can also see of two cautious men the one attain his end, the other fail; and similarly, two men by different observances are equally successful, the one being cautious, the other impetuous; all this arises from nothing else than whether or not they conform in their methods to the spirit of the times." This idea is something an astrologer should consider carefully and incorporate into his work. In a very real sense it is "what astrology is about"... harmonizing action with proper timing. And the same line of thought holds true for the very nature of a man; it is not productive, does not lead to success in life, to attempt to be something we are not, that goes against our very nature.

In regard to the Evils of the 12th House, Mark Twain offers us this thought: "“Only Bunyan, Sir Walter Raleigh, the author of Don Quixote, & a few other people have had the best of opportunities for working, in this world. Solitary imprisonment, by compulsion, is the one perfect condition for perfect performance ... Then his work becomes his pleasure, his recreation, his absorption, his uplifting & all-satisfying enthusiasm. He is miserable only when the work-day closes. And yet a man so circumstanced need never be actually miserable; for he can weave his fancies & continue his work in his head until sleep overtakes him. He lives in a fairer world than any that is outside, he moves in a goodlier company than any that others know, & over them he is king & they obey him.” --- Mark Twain


“Our generation is a realistic generation because we have learned what a human being really is. When all is said and done, man is that same creature who invented the gas-chambers of Auschwitz; but he is also that being who walked upright into those chambers with the prayer “Shema Yisrael” on his lips”. Victor Frankl, Man’s Search for Meaning -- All astrological symbolism contains this duality because it is woven into the very fabric of reality. The Twelfth House is both the creature who invented the gas chambers of Auschwitz and the being who walked upright into those chambers praising God.
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
The story of my suicidal friend seems to have awakened some interest.

We cannot judge any chart competently without "seeing" the whole chart. My description of his chart is incomplete. But given what we know of this chart...

Leo is rising. Pride of self is at the forefront. But lurking in the 12th House is Pluto, who is rejected (look back to the meeting and vote of the IAU in Prague) and abandoned. Pluto, by his intrinsic nature, is the outsider, the outlaw, and must rely on himself alone and become a law unto himself. Rejected and abandoned by his parents at a very early age, thrown onto the streets, this kid must have thought "No one loves me or gives a **** about me; so I will live for Me and the world be damned." He took this path and it led him to self-destruction.

The exact (to the minute of arc) semisquare of transiting Pluto to the radical Sun at the moment of his self-destruction leaves us no room for doubt. His suicide came out of the 12th House [the house of self-destruction], and not Leo (certainly Leo played its role and is not without influence in the affair).

A trend in the modern way of teaching astrology is to "equate" houses, signs and planets. They are considered to be virtual "identities". Although planets, signs and house do carry much the same meaning, the three things are NOT equal, or identical. Each of them represents different aspects of reality. The planets are dynamic foci of energy; it is they who act, and not signs and houses. It is useful to our thinking to consider the close associations in meaning of planets, signs and houses; but it is very poor astrological practice to employ them as identities -- they are not identical. And I think that is at least partially the cause of the confusion between the 12th House Pluto and the sign of Leo in this particular case.
 
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SniperBomber328

SniperBomber328

Well-known member
d00dle said:
care to show your chart? corresponding houses to orientation in time and space, the personal houses are 1-4, the social houses are 5-8, and lastly the universal or transpersonal houses are 9-12.

The Universal, or Transpersonal signs and houses are post-moral. Here, the perspective has widened and broadened to include me and you and everybody, everywhere, all the time. The Universal orientation relates to anyone or anything in the past, present or future. It believes in the principals of law, order, justice, and doing what is right because it is right. It is concerned with the highest ethics, not personal or social morality.
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Perhaps it is this way. I learnt the old fashioned doctrine. Where the 1st, 2nd and 12th Houses correspond to the "Self" or "eastern hemisphere", the 6th, 7th and 8th houses correspond to the "Other" or "western hemisphere", the 3rd, 4th and 5th houses correspond to the "Inner" or "Southern Hemisphere" and
the 9th, 10th and 11th houses correspond to the "Outer" or "Northern hemisphere".

I will show my chart, but later, I am too lazy to create another chart.
 
M

Munch

Well-known member
VestaMoon said:
What does make sense to me is that the 12th house represents mystery and secrets, and what we can't explain or control. Maybe that's why we can't put our finger on exactly what "it" is. Have I been hurt deeply by something I could not control, explain or ever understand - and been more hurt by the inexplicable nature of it all than the actual wrong? Oh Yes. Do I tend to nurse those wounds in secret? Yes. Do I often hold back because some inexplicable feeling - call it instinct or intuition - tells me I should? Yes. Have I observed a heightened awareness that we are all ultimately mysteries to one another activated by those who put a lot of planets in my 12th house? Yes.

Just my experience and grist for the mill. Your mileage may vary and all that. :)
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Mine as well. I have an extremely embattled Mercury that reflects the nature of my 12th house, Virgo fears and issues. My biggest deal at the moment is that I can't trust myself to put together a sound, well reasoned, well thought out plan for myself. I am constantly starting and stopping because I just can't put my finger on the best place to begin or how.
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
The Fourth House cusp and its associates are Northern, not Southern.

If the MC is the point where the meridian of birth and the ecliptic intersect, and the chart is erected with the northern-hemisphere bias (higher latitude than the tropics) traditionally used in astrology world-wide, the intersection of the two planes occurs South of the zenith. Therefore the 10th and its associated houses are southern. In my opinion it is more accurate and descriptive (and therefore useful to interpretation) to call the two points (MC & IC) "Above the Earth" and "Below the Earth".

These two terms reflect the ideas of "objective-subjective, visible-invisible, conscious-unconscious, inherited-acquired" and so on.
 
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sandstone

Banned
well we will never know about everything even if we did see the chart.. at any rate, we don't get to see the chart and often times have to settle for views on it from others who may have a very different view on astrology then we have.. such is as it is..
 
SniperBomber328

SniperBomber328

Well-known member
d00dle said:
care to show your chart? corresponding houses to orientation in time and space, the personal houses are 1-4, the social houses are 5-8, and lastly the universal or transpersonal houses are 9-12.

The Universal, or Transpersonal signs and houses are post-moral. Here, the perspective has widened and broadened to include me and you and everybody, everywhere, all the time. The Universal orientation relates to anyone or anything in the past, present or future. It believes in the principals of law, order, justice, and doing what is right because it is right. It is concerned with the highest ethics, not personal or social morality.
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Here is my chart. Sorry I got lazy like a few minutes before. I don't know why I was such a stickler.
 

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d00dle

d00dle

Well-known member
SniperBomber328 said:
Here is my chart. Sorry I got lazy like a few minutes before. I don't know why I was such a stickler.
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omg! im scorpio rising too (@6 degree). also, venus + Jupiter libra in the 12th :) actually, im with you on this one because i have no interested in spiritual enlightenment. i just want to live and experience life to the fullest. imo the 12th is the house of withdrawal. you have to withdraw from withdrawing.
 
SniperBomber328

SniperBomber328

Well-known member
d00dle said:
omg! im scorpio rising too (@6 degree). also, venus + Jupiter libra in the 12th :) actually, im with you on this one because i have no interested in spiritual enlightenment. i just want to live and experience life to the fullest. imo the 12th is the house of withdrawal. you have to withdraw from withdrawing.
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I love how you said that; "you have to withdraw from withdrawing". As I have said before though, that perhaps it has to do with Venus and Jupiter not being in such a bad place in the 12th. Since Venus joy's in the 12th, and Jupiter co-signifies the 12th, perhaps it's not so bad as say having the Sun, Moon or Mars here. Mercury can be bad too, but Saturn....not so much to the native.

Born 1981 or 93? Or perhaps 69 or 57? Just stating cause I was born in 93' so I still have far to go when it comes to Astrology.
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
From my unorthodox, eclectic perspective:

-Sun in the reference chart is in the first whole sign house and ABOVE the ascending degree in that house, which is very beneficial
-Sun is also in a Bright degree of Scorpio
-Sun's benefic and strong indications are somewhat diluted by Sun being in the Fiery Road
-Sun conjuncts ascending degree = Sun's influence strikes deep into the essence of the subject's personality
-Jupiter is in the 12th whole sign house
-Jupiter is not in conjunction with the Sun because
a) first and foremost (for me), the orb of conjunction (which I follow), 6 degrees maximum for the Sun, is exceeded in the chart (by 11 minutes of arc)
b) and, additionally (but secondarily for me) they are in seperate signs
-by Traditionalist, Hellenist and Vedic parameters Jupiter is combust the Sun, and therefore Jupiter indications and ramifications havebeen absorbed by the Sun
-however, I do not ascribe to the (what I consider to be) excessively extended combustion zone doctrine: for me, combustion varies with the quality of the planet (elemental quality): regarding Jupiter, I consider the combustion zone to be 5 degrees: since Jupiter is 6 degrees from the Sun, I do not consider Jupiter to be combusted in this chart.
-Sun is in longitudinal conjunction with the quite benefic star Syrma, which channels the influences of the constellation Virgo into the Sun sphere, and through the Sun's conjunction with the ascending degree, right on into the entire first house (so for me the first house would be a mixture of the influences and indications of the SIGN Scorpio PLUS influences and indications of the constellation Virgo)
-Jupiter gets a major + boost from being within orb of longitudinal conjunction with the glorious Arcturus, which I would consider to largely overcome the detriment of cadency/12th house placement for Jupiter (and remember that I do not consider that Jupiter suffers from combustion, either)-so all in all, Jupiter comes out as likely to have a net benefic influence, if these considerations are credited and factored into the totality of testimonies...
 
SniperBomber328

SniperBomber328

Well-known member
dr. farr said:
From my unorthodox, eclectic perspective:

-Sun in the reference chart is in the first whole sign house and ABOVE the ascending degree in that house, which is very beneficial
-Sun is also in a Bright degree of Scorpio
-Sun's benefic and strong indications are somewhat diluted by Sun being in the Fiery Road
-Sun conjuncts ascending degree = Sun's influence strikes deep into the essence of the subject's personality
-Jupiter is in the 12th whole sign house
-Jupiter is not in conjunction with the Sun because
a) first and foremost (for me), the orb of conjunction (which I follow), 6 degrees maximum for the Sun, is exceeded in the chart (by 11 minutes of arc)
b) and, additionally (but secondarily for me) they are in seperate signs
-by Traditionalist, Hellenist and Vedic parameters Jupiter is combust the Sun, and therefore Jupiter indications and ramifications havebeen absorbed by the Sun
-however, I do not ascribe to the (what I consider to be) excessively extended combustion zone doctrine: for me, combustion varies with the quality of the planet (elemental quality): regarding Jupiter, I consider the combustion zone to be 5 degrees: since Jupiter is 6 degrees from the Sun, I do not consider Jupiter to be combusted in this chart.
-Sun is in longitudinal conjunction with the quite benefic star Syrma, which channels the influences of the constellation Virgo into the Sun sphere, and through the Sun's conjunction with the ascending degree, right on into the entire first house (so for me the first house would be a mixture of the influences and indications of the SIGN Scorpio PLUS influences and indications of the constellation Virgo)
-Jupiter gets a major + boost from being within orb of longitudinal conjunction with the glorious Arcturus, which I would consider to largely overcome the detriment of cadency/12th house placement for Jupiter (and remember that I do not consider that Jupiter suffers from combustion, either)-so all in all, Jupiter comes out as likely to have a net benefic influence, if these considerations are credited and factored into the totality of testimonies...
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Thanks so much for the read Dr. Farr! I very much appreciate it! :biggrin:
All the reading you did for my chart, and as I have stated before, sounds extremely relieving for me! I wonder how powerful my Sun has into the essence of my soul? I never really questioned that.
 
d00dle

d00dle

Well-known member
SniperBomber328 said:
I love how you said that; "you have to withdraw from withdrawing". As I have said before though, that perhaps it has to do with Venus and Jupiter not being in such a bad place in the 12th. Since Venus joy's in the 12th, and Jupiter co-signifies the 12th, perhaps it's not so bad as say having the Sun, Moon or Mars here. Mercury can be bad too, but Saturn....not so much to the native.

Born 1981 or 93? Or perhaps 69 or 57? Just stating cause I was born in 93' so I still have far to go when it comes to Astrology.
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81' here. having venus in the 12th could simply just mean someone who hides their sensitivity, moon - hide their emotions, mercury - intellect, mars - anger and aggression, saturn - depression, etc. after all, the 12th is associated with hidden and secret.

i've read somewhere that the 12th belongs to sensitive and caring people (also, im not surprised, serial killers and psychos). A Person with many planets in the Twelth house will tend to spend much of their life hidden away or at the very least they will regularly need their space to recharge (110% agree). They will be highly in tune with the group consciousness and be sensitive to receiving inspiration from a higher source (not sure). They may end up working in hospitals and caring for other people (caring = no, helping the less fortunate = yes). In a negative side, they may have trouble adapting to day to day realities and may continually want to be on their own (actually, this is very accurate). The insanity can also be caused by the person not being fully grounded in this world but having a foot in some other distant world.
 
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greybeard

Well-known member
Let's see....the 12th House belongs to caring spiritual people; oh, and the occasional psychopath and serial killer.

Hmm. Now if I could just figure out which is which....
 
poyi

poyi

Premium Member
greybeard said:
Now you see why I chose you Po Yi. Get the Cheese.
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Thank you for the Cheese. I hope one day I will make you proud, my dear Teacher. :biggrin:

There are at least 2 major types of blindness. The first one is blindness of the physical body, the second type is the blindness of lying to yourself. The second type brings out the Greatest Darkness that no one can cast out but the native he/herself. If you manage to do so Then, perhaps you shall see.

If you observe carefully with the Eyes of your heart; suffering is Always because you lied to yourself.
 
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MaeMae

MaeMae

Banned
poyi ~ your last sentence is perfect!
it really captures the need for self honesty with 12th folks who often have a problem in this area. something about 12th house folks (pisceans too) feeling victimized by their own self-deceit. "how did this happen to me?" or "why is this happening to me?" seems to be their frequent battle cry.
 
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poyi

poyi

Premium Member
MaeMae said:
poyi ~ your last sentence is perfect!
it really captures the need for self honesty with 12th folks who often have a problem in this area. something about 12th house folks (pisceans too) feeling victimized by their own self-deceit. "how did this happen to me?" or "why is this happening to me?" seems to be their frequent battle cry.
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Thanks for your compliment haha

Life is a lot more delightful if you are true to yourself. We all have different paths....as long as you are walking toward the right direction. It doesn't really matter how you get to the end stop. We are all human mistakes and errors simply just part of us.....By making mistakes, we see our own limitations. It is necessary.
 
StillOne

StillOne

Well-known member
Well, then potentially spirituality is the solution to the troubles of the 12th. I'm biased of course, I have an interesting 12th house situation and the energies emanating from the placement of this structure is recommending a particular spiritual direction. However, as we've discussed, there can be other chart placements that invite this, more than just the 12th house situation.

I awoke in the night last night and picked up my copy of Astrology, Karma, and Transformation by Arroyo to see what he had to say regarding the 12th:
The twelfth house, by contrast, [He's in the middle of writing about the water houses] reveals influences that are totally and obviously beyond our control. It is often clear to the person that he or she will not be able to satisfy the inner longings through any ordinary activity, although this clarity may take years of suffering to develop. The yearning for emotional peace found in the eighth house is still present, but here it is intermixed with an awareness of the need for ultimate peace for the soul. Planets in the natal twelfth house symbolize forces which often overwhelm us and which can be dealt with effectively only by redirecting that energy to an ideal that inspires us inwardly toward greater self-knowledge and devotion to the Oneness of all things and outwardly toward greater generosity of spirit and service. This house deals with the process of assimilating a vast array of experience in all dimensions of life, particularly in our handling of responsibilities toward all other living beings. Through some sort of devotion, spiritual practice, or selfless service, one begins to gain freedom from the results of past actions and their accompanying mental impressions...
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There is a whole same size segment that I didn't include because I know the mods will chop it. I'll post it later.

We are all in different stages of evolving our souls, in my opinion. While some people are focused on a career, others may be focused on understanding their greater goal of evolving the soul and working on clearing karma, thus... eliminating suffering. I think this process can be different for people. It doesn't have to happen thru one particular way, religion, philosophy etc.

In my opinion, understanding the nature of, and working with suffering leads to understanding it's opposite, which is bliss. This happens in the same fashion as tensing your muscles to it's full extent and then relaxing leads you to understand the nature of total relaxation further. Meditation and journeying inwards, then, allows me to connect to my true purpose of my deeper universal mission of consciousness expansion through a path of love and compassion by abiding to ways to avoid suffering. Meditation provides the vehicle for focusing on the essence, while the bs falls to the wayside making for a more productive mind, one that understands my true nature so I can outwardly be a better person who operates from the authenticity of the true Self, one who is the change I want to see in this world. I may not be there completely yet, but it is my goal.
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
StillOne said:
I respectfully disagree, I wouldn't say always... as suffering can also result from stealing, addiction, killing, & sexual misconduct... which someone can be completely honest to oneself about performing.
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By the very nature of the acts committed, thieves and addicts are notoriously dishonest to others... would it be so surprising if thieves and addicts were dishonest to themselves also? Of course we cannot know for certain :smile:
 
StillOne

StillOne

Well-known member
JUPITERASC said:
By the very nature of the acts committed, thieves and addicts are notoriously dishonest to others... would it be so surprising if thieves and addicts were dishonest to themselves also? Of course we cannot know for certain :smile:
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possibly I shouldn't have deleted this post. I felt, after rereading it, that it was counter-productive to this thread...
 
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