Why is Mars exalted in Capricorn

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
tsmall said:
Anachiel, isn't it also something to do with each planet having a preference for one of the two signs it rules? For example, Jupiter prefers Pisces to Sagittaruis, and Cancer trines Pisces.

Sorry to interject here. Planets prefer the signs of their own gender...and then there's Mercury who prefers Virgo.
 

tsmall

Premium Member
Sorry to interject here. Planets prefer the signs of their own gender...and then there's Mercury who prefers Virgo.


I hadn't read about gender, but I did misremember my source. You are right that Jupiter prefers Sag. That's what I get for posting before checking. :sad: But, what of the idea that Mars prefers Scorpio to Aries? Isn't it that the diurnal planets prefer the masculine sign they rule, and nocturnal planets prefer the femine? Or did I mess that one up too, lol?
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
I don't know if you're familiar with the differnet sect concepts, but there is one called Hayz which is when a planet is in a sign that matches its own gender. This is the rule that the preferred domicile works off of. Mars prefers Aries, Venus prefers Taurus, and then Mercury comes a long and messes everything up and prefers Virgo. Mercury preferring a feminine probably goes back to how Mercury would often be used as a feminine planet to help maintain the flow of certain patterns. The days of the week are a good example of this as they form a male/female/male pattern starting with Sunday. In this pattern Mercury (as Wednesday) is fit between Mars's and Jupiter's days to make a third feminine.

Though, like I mentioned earlier, it was probably also put this way to maintain it's relationship next to the Sun.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I don't know if you're familiar with the differnet sect concepts, but there is one called Hayz which is when a planet is in a sign that matches its own gender. This is the rule that the preferred domicile works off of. Mars prefers Aries, Venus prefers Taurus, and then Mercury comes a long and messes everything up and prefers Virgo. Mercury preferring a feminine probably goes back to how Mercury would often be used as a feminine planet to help maintain the flow of certain patterns. The days of the week are a good example of this as they form a male/female/male pattern starting with Sunday. In this pattern Mercury (as Wednesday) is fit between Mars's and Jupiter's days to make a third feminine.

Though, like I mentioned earlier, it was probably also put this way to maintain it's relationship next to the Sun
.
Here's one I prepared earlier :smile:
FAQ SECT common knowledge amongst Hellenistic astrologers

To be in Sect, the Sun must be above the horizon
The Sun can only be above the horizon in a Day/diurnal Chart

The Moon in a Night Chart may be in Sect either above or below the horizon

- that's because the Sun determines Diurnal/Nocturnal

(a) The Sun is always in Sect in a Day Chart

(b) The Moon is always in Sect in a Night Chart

ADDITIONAL CONSIDERATIONS

1.) In a diurnal chart you'd want the diurnal planets in the upper hemisphere with the Sun (hayz) as that would be more natural for those planets. The diurnal planets are Sun, Jupiter and Saturn.

If any diurnal planets in a diurnal chart are in the lower hemisphere/below the Ascendant/Descendant axis then although they are in sect, nevertheless they are considered slightly out of sect and more nocturnal in nature (halb).

If the nocturnal planets in a diurnal chart are below the horizon, although they are out of sect they are still in hayz and so more natural - but nocturnal planets that are above the horizon in a diurnal chart are situated contrary to their nature (halb).

2.) In a nocturnal chart you'd want the nocturnal planets in the upper hemisphere away from the Sun (HAYZ).

Any nocturnal planets in the lower hemisphere in a nocturnal chart are still in sect but are considered slightly out of sect and more diurnal in nature (halb).

If the diurnal planets in a nocturnal chart are below the horizon they are also hayz, so a little more natural but if they are above the horizon they are situated contrary to their nature nature (halb).

Just remember

(a) the Sun alone determines Day and Night.


(b) the Sun can only be above the horizon in a Day Chart

(c) the Moon is always out of Sect when the Sun is above the horizon (Diurnal/Day Chart)

(d) the Moon is always in Sect when the Sun is below the horizon (Nocturnal/Night Chart)

(e) therefore if the Sun is below the horizon it is a Nocturnal/Night Chart and

(f) therefore in a Nocturnal/Night Chart the Moon is in Sect whether above or below the Horizon

diurnal = day
nocturnal = night


(a) when above the horizon the Sun is in the upper hemisphere = Day/diurnal

(b) when below the horizon the Sun is in the lower hemisphere = Night/nocturnal

therefore

(c) the Moon is in Sect in a Night Chart irrespective of hemisphere and/or horizon

This is a question often debated :smile:

'Ascendant' is the name given to the Eastern section of the Great Circle of the Horizon


If the Sun were visible on the Eastern Horizon then one would define that as Day

Nevertheless there are a number of definitions for both Sunrise and Sunset
- one of which is 'apparent sunrise/sunset' - Due to atmospheric refraction, sunrise occurs shortly before the sun crosses above the horizon. Light from the sun is bent, or refracted, as it enters earth's atmosphere. This effect causes the apparent sunrise to be earlier than the actual sunrise. Similarly, apparent sunset occurs slightly later than actual sunset. However, it should be noted that due to changes in air pressure, relative humidity, and other quantities, no one can predict the exact effects of atmospheric refraction on sunrise and sunset time: this possible error increases with higher latitudes (closer to the poles).


Official times of Sunrise and Sunset may be found on various astronomical websites.


Hellenistic astrology states that the Sun is always in sect in a day/diurnal chart and obviously then out of sect in a night/nocturnal chart
link to an explanation of sect http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2008/11/25/the-astrology-of-sect/ :smile:
 

tsmall

Premium Member
I don't know if you're familiar with the different sect concepts, but there is one called Hayz which is when a planet is in a sign that matches its own gender. This is the rule that the preferred domicile works off of. Mars prefers Aries, Venus prefers Taurus, and then Mercury comes a long and messes everything up and prefers Virgo. Mercury preferring a feminine probably goes back to how Mercury would often be used as a feminine planet to help maintain the flow of certain patterns. The days of the week are a good example of this as they form a male/female/male pattern starting with Sunday. In this pattern Mercury (as Wednesday) is fit between Mars's and Jupiter's days to make a third feminine.

Though, like I mentioned earlier, it was probably also put this way to maintain it's relationship next to the Sun.

I thought that in order to be in Hayz, the planet not only had to be in sect by sign and position according to the horizon, but also by the nature of the chart. Meaning, nocturnal planets could never, for example, be in Hayz in a day chart? I have Crane here paraphrasing Hephaistio, who quoted Dorotheus, that Mars actually prefers Scorpio.

Aries is masculine and cardinal: here Mars can be as if on steroids. Nocturnal Mars prefers the Scorpio to Aries, since the fixed feminine zodion tones down Mars' recklessness and bravado, and gives opportunities for meaningful~not pointless~conflict. Four zoidia away gives us the potent but stressful aspect of the square, and the square is the nature of Mars.

Of course, Mars is a natural malefic, and so perhaps it is the native that would prefer Mars in Scorpio to Mars in Aries?
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
Any nocturnal planets in the lower hemisphere in a nocturnal chart are still in sect but are considered slightly out of sect and more diurnal in nature (halb).

Halb. That's the other word I couldn't think of. Hopefully I'll remember it this time.

I thought that in order to be in Hayz, the planet not only had to be in sect by sign and position according to the horizon, but also by the nature of the chart. Meaning, nocturnal planets could never, for example, be in Hayz in a day chart?

You may be right that they have to have both to be Hayz. I don't have a source in front of me at the moment, and Hayz and Halb are fairly insignificant anyway when considering sect. No one really knows how much they mitigate a planet that is out of sect. I say all that to say that I don't really look at them closely enough in practical charts to have the distinct definitions memorized. D:

One of these days I'm going to stop editing this post I swear.

Houlding briefly discuss sign preferment in this article.
 
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SniperBomber328

Well-known member
Well I don't want to insist, but I think tsmall may be right with Mars prefering Scorpio over Aries. Since the benefics are good in nature it is best that they are in the signs that enhance that nature. E.g. Jupiter is Masculine so naturaly you will want him in Sagittarius and Diurnal. Then comes the malefics, where because of their malicious natures are best in the signs that temperate them. E.g. Mars is hot and dry. In Aries this wouldn't be at its best when compared to Scorpio. Scorpio is nocturnal so it cools Mars down.
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
Sniper, you've probably hit the nail on the head. Especially since tsmall is quoting from someone who quotes Dorotheus who used triplicities that work in a very similar manner.

I know Lilly says Aries is Mars's preferred sign. I assume Bonatti says this as well since Lilly tends to follow Bonatti unless he states otherwise, which leads me to believe that Bonatti was quoting Ptolemy like he usually does.
 

SniperBomber328

Well-known member
Actually I was just paraphrasing someone else's post from here from a while back. It made sense too me since it explained why Saturn is best in Aquarius and Venus in Taurus. Anyone notice that 4 planets of the Trad. 7 do best in the fixed signs. Leo, Taurus, Aquarius and Scorpio? Only Jupiter, Mercury and the Moon do well in the Mutable signs Sagittarius, Virgo and the Cardinal sign Cancer, respectively.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Sniper, you've probably hit the nail on the head. Especially since tsmall is quoting from someone who quotes Dorotheus who used triplicities that work in a very similar manner.

I know Lilly says Aries is Mars's preferred sign. I assume Bonatti says this as well since Lilly tends to follow Bonatti unless he states otherwise, which leads me to believe that Bonatti was quoting Ptolemy like he usually does
.
BUT unfortunately, Ptolemy did not quote verbatim the ancient sources but instead altered many according to whim replacing his own ideas of what in his view "worked better mathematically"...
Ptolemy's theoretically perfect mathematical explanation for retrograde motion remains a more than obvious testament to the fact that Ptolemy was indeed a mathematician and not an astrologer. the deferent/epicycle and the "crystalline circles" DO NOT in fact describe the actual retrograde motion of the planets as seen from Earth:smile:

Ptolemy imagined mathematically beautiful ideas to illustrate planetary motion which were based on brilliant mathematical minds that preceded him such as Appolonius of Perga and are simply weird when compared to the real world motion of the planets. For example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utH-GHH1FT8

link to explanation of "The Universe of Ptolemy and Aristotle"
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/retrograde/aristotle.html

thumbnail Ptolemaic universe entitled "Epicycles on Epicycles" illustrates clearly Ptolemy's mathematically neat yet totally inaccurate - in compariosn to the reality of Earth's actual orientation in space and/or time - explanation for the retrograde motions of our Geocentric view of the movements of the planets :smile:
 

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tsmall

Premium Member
You may be right that they have to have both to be Hayz. I don't have a source in front of me at the moment, and Hayz and Halb are fairly insignificant anyway when considering sect. No one really knows how much they mitigate a planet that is out of sect. I say all that to say that I don't really look at them closely enough in practical charts to have the distinct definitions memorized. D:

One of these days I'm going to stop editing this post I swear.

Houlding briefly discuss sign preferment in this article.

First, let me say that I laughed when I read the "one of these days" line. I know the feeling, lol.

So, for us new students, isn't Hayz and Halb all about sect? I mean, if we are going to consider sect in the chart (and I know that some/a lot of astrologers do not) wouldn't we want to know which is which? For all pratical chart reading purposes, a planet is either completly out of sect, a little out of sect, a little in sect, or completly in sect. That does at least make a difference in how "comfortable" that planet will be in how it expresses its self in the chart?
 
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byjove

Account Closed
Exactly Sandstone, I support debate on these things, but I think it ought to be a long drawn out process of debate, theory and practice before anyone decides to RE-design the universe! :w00t:

I should say, Bob assessed dignity in my natal chart before and he did mention a few compatibilities were needed for hayz, I think it was gender, triplicity and angular. I would like to find where he said that but trying to find that one thread out of 20 pages or so ... He used traditional and older methods I believe.

Also, to add a notion to exaltation etc. I've a diurnal chart with the Sun angular, in sect and ruler, cardinal, in triplicity and exalted with very useful aspects...but Bob, a tremendously experienced astrologer declared my Jupiter as being more dignified. My Jupiter is in the same sign as the Sun, only in sect, triplicity and angular but still won the fight. Apparently exaltation isn't the biggest gun.
 

MaeMae

Banned
mars is exalted in capricorn, because drive and caution always yields success. initiative is backed by astuteness.
risks not taken blind ariesly, bashing into obstacles, but with goat climing up rocks caution.
doesn't matter how long it takes, it will get done, got through.
warlike in that way.
they'd rather win the battle than the war.
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
So, for us new students, isn't Hayz and Halb all about sect? I mean, if we are going to consider sect in the chart (and I know that some/a lot of astrologers do not) wouldn't we want to know which is which? For all pratical chart reading purposes, a planet is either completly out of sect, a little out of sect, a little in sect, or completly in sect. That does at least make a difference in how "comfortable" that planet will be in how it expresses its self in the chart?

You're right. But the reason why I called Hayz and Halb insignificant is because there really aren't any considerations that mention them. In all the considerations that mention Saturn being unfortunate in a night chart, there's no mention of if and how much that is mitigated by Saturn being in either Hayz or Halb. It's easier to just consider them as in sect or out of sect. Now, it would make sense for Saturn to be less malevolent if he were in Hayz or Halb, we just don't have any examples of that.
 

SniperBomber328

Well-known member
You're right. But the reason why I called Hayz and Halb insignificant is because there really aren't any considerations that mention them. In all the considerations that mention Saturn being unfortunate in a night chart, there's no mention of if and how much that is mitigated by Saturn being in either Hayz or Halb. It's easier to just consider them as in sect or out of sect. Now, it would make sense for Saturn to be less malevolent if he were in Hayz or Halb, we just don't have any examples of that.

Isn't it something like -2 or +2, when using Lilly's table of dignities and debilities? Well when completely out of sect or in-sect, so I'm guessing when partial out of sect/in-sect then it would be -1/+1? Just food for thought.
 

dhundhun

Well-known member
Exaltation is not related to a sign, it is related to degree. Mars is exalted @28th degree of Capricorn. Based on experiences Mars, its exaltation is given this point. I have two ways of explaining this:
1. Mars is fire, wild - if uncontrolled it is destructive. The 28th degree of Capricorn harness this energy (like Saturnian control) and provides direction. As an example rocket fuel, working properly has open frontier to different planets and space.
2. The 28th degree of Sidereal Capricorn is approximately equivalent to 23rd degree of Tropical Aquarius, where the following beneficial stars are located:
~ Gamma Capricorni (22)
~ Alpha Equulei (23)
~ Beta Aquarii (23)
~ Delta Capricorni (24)
~ Gamma Cygni
These benefic stars take color of Mercury, Venus, Jupiter and Saturn. Mars is the best planet to energize their benefits. Well this answers, why Mars is exalted at Sidereal 28 Capricorn.

There has been debates that Sidereal and Tropical Zodiac are changing - now over 24-25 degrees apart. Whether the degrees of exaltation and fall are also changing? If this debate takes Stars into consideration than answer is - no.
 
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soratothamax

Well-known member
So would it be said that exaltations overcompensate in their planets?

Because exaltations "feel" inferior, they overdo things, making the influence pure?

Is it that exalted is pure because they don't have those weaknesses that would otherwise make a domicile weak?
 

dhundhun

Well-known member
Is it that exalted is pure because they don't have those weaknesses that would otherwise make a domicile weak?
Exaltation degree represents best utilization of planets energy. Domicile is best comfortable comfortable. In exaltation planet tend to work. In domicile planet might relax.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Exaltation is not related to a sign, it is related to degree. Mars is exalted @28th degree of Capricorn. Based on experiences Mars exaltation is given this point.
dhundhun, are you saying Mars is exalted at 28th degree of no sign in particular? Because if you are saying that exaltation is related solely to degree - then why mention the sign of Capricorn at all?
I have two ways of explaining this:
1. Mars is fire, wild - if uncontrolled it is destructive. The 28th degree of Capricorn harness this energy (like Saturnian control) and provides direction. As an example rocket fuel, working properly has open frontier to different planets.
2. The 28th degree of Sidereal Capricorn is equivalent to 23rd degree of Aquarius, where the following beneficial stars are located:
~ Gamma Capricorni (22)
~ Alpha Equulei (23)
~ Beta Aquarii (23)
~ Delta Capricorni (24)
~ Gamma Cygni
These benefic stars take color of Mercury, Venus, Jupiter and Saturn. Mars is the best planet to energize their benefits. Well this answers, why Mars is exalted at Sidereal 28 Capricorn.

There has been debates that Sidereal and Tropical Zodiac are changing - now over 24 degrees apart. Whether the degrees of exaltation and fall are also changing? If this debate takes Stars into consideration than answer is - no
.
Here is a link to table of planetary dignities at Skyscript http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig2.html clearly showing Mars exalted at 28[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT] Tropical Capricorn

28
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT] Tropical Capricorn is equivalent to 4[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT] Sidereal Capricorn

But you have just said that Mars is exalted at 28[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT] Sidereal Capricorn - and then told us that 28[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT] Sidereal Capricorn is equivalent to 23[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT] Tropical Aquarius - could you explain?:smile:
 

dhundhun

Well-known member
dhundhun, are you saying Mars is exalted at 28th degree of no sign in particular? Because if you are saying that exaltation is related solely to degree - then why mention the sign of Capricorn at all?
Mars exaltation is 28th degree of Capricorn, fall is 28th degree of Cancer.
Vedic Astrology treats Sidereal 28th degree of Capricorn, Western Astrology treats as Tropical 28th degree of Capricorn.

Here is western tropical exaltation degrees: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaltation_(astrology)
Here is Vedic Sidereal exaltation degrees: http://www.planetarypositions.com/notes/2010/01/01/exaltation-debilitation-and-moola-trikona-chart/
 
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