narcasissm

pudinnpop

pudinnpop

Well-known member
I was having this talk with my sister and a freind about people who are truly narcasists.And i know a couple of ppl just like this!!! Its a personality disorder one which doesnt have a cure really.Anyways i looked at the charts of these two ppl and saw both had some jupiter squares,especially to the asc,also venus and at times pluto.First house.

Im sure other aspects would streghten this too but for now what im trying to study is planets that may indicate such a disorder,and these is what ive came up with.

So any discussion on this would be great as im trying to learn more about phycological astrology.I just find this fasinating.Thought id share on the forum:)
 
lillyjgc

lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
pudinnpop,
I agree its an interesting topic, but in this instance there would need to be two provisos:
charts with accurate birth times and only charts of people officially diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder/.
It is actually quite rare and often confused with similar personality disorders, of which there are very many.
I think it can be counter productive to assume we can diagnose people's personality disorders accurately-and potentially dangerous. Also *potentially* unethical and of course charts, in this instance, should not identify the individuals in any way, or we run up against privacy issues.
I have a chart of a person diagnosed with NPD by a clinical psychiatrist, (the only people in my country qualified to make such a diagnosis.)

BTW, I have jupiter squares, but I have no personality disorders.I think *look at oppositions more than squares*...as narcissism can't really be overcome, and squares suggest obstacles that can be overcome.
Cheers Lillyjgc
 
S

Shining Ray

Banned
This topic is touched upon in the book inner planets by Howard & Liz.

I will just give out the astrological pointers from the book.
  • Usually difficult issues around the Moon, deep disorder in the early bonding. Baby is not encouraged to develop an independent existance. Mother may be over attentive and then withdraw. Mother cannot allow child to be seperate because of her own dependent needs. It is stressed in the book that such dilemmas with bonding may have legitamite reasons, one cannot always point the moral finger at mother (which I am glad to read, I get sick of mother always getting the blame :) ).
  • A disturbance of feeling safe is reflected by Moon in hard aspect to the heavy planets - paticularly Saturn, Chiron, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. Many people have such aspects, (Liz Greene mentions earlier in the book that most us have narcisstic pockets in our personality).
  • Narcissism is a natural state of childhood, it is a 'disorder' when one gets stuck there in adulthood. Especially if one's perception of life becomes prinarily infantile. Difficult Moon aspects can suggest one has got stuck.
  • Powerful planets such as Uranus and Pluto in 10th may reflect a similar dilemma if the Moon is also in trouble.
  • There is a conflict around forming an identity, refelcted by a strong Neptune. And resistance to the limits of reality, reflected by an over powerful but badly aspected Saturn.
  • Liz Greene says there is no such thing as a chart which says "Narcisstic Personality Disorder" any more than a chart which says "World Dicatator" or "Musical Genius". There are hints which when added together point to a possible total sum.
  • Fire signs are paticularly prone to Narcissism. It's a charecteristic defence of the fire signs, against feelings of helplessness and inferiority. A fire sign feeling threatened will react with a display of grandiosity. Fire uses Inflation as a defence against feeling human and ordinary.
I forgot how good those book in the astrology psychology series are. Highly recommended books.

Hope this helps :) .
 
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R

Raindrops

Well-known member
Narcisstic Personality Disorder Symptoms:

"Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance and a deep need for admiration. They believe that they're superior to others and have little regard for other people's feelings. But behind this mask of ultra-confidence lies a fragile self-esteem, vulnerable to the slightest criticism.
Narcissistic personality disorder is one of several types of personality disorders. Personality disorders are conditions in which people have traits that cause them to feel and behave in socially distressing ways, limiting their ability to function in relationships and in other areas of their life, such as work or school. In particular, narcissistic personality disorder is characterized by dramatic, emotional behavior, in the same category as histrionic, antisocial and borderline personality disorders. Narcissistic personality disorder treatment is centered around psychotherapy"




==========================


His Chart:

Venus on the ASC by 1 degree in Cancer
Mercury in the middle of the 1st house
His moon (the ruler of his ASC) is in Sag 6th house opposing Jupiter (by 1') and Uranus (by 4').
Neptune in the 4th house -- disguising how he ran the house and his homelife
 
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Kingsley

Kingsley

Well-known member
I am afraid it is not as simple as Sun signs. Any way, most of the top end of mental health signicators show merc saturn neptune configurations and difficult Moon aspects etc.

There are personality adaptations rather than disorders. In other words one may have a narcissistic personality type, which just goes to explain something about how the person expresses themself. That is pretty normal kind of thinking feeling and behaviours.

I did some research on Narcissism and the asteroid Vesta. You might wish to read this
Death of a Narcissist: Insights to Vesta

I tend to write from a different view point and relate my case studies to astrology. I use other charts to describe what my findings are. These are not difinitive studies however I like to promote different ways of looking at and using the chart.

Nothing wrong with healthy narcissism in my view.

kingsley
 
Natasha

Natasha

Well-known member
Getting away from medical labels and looking at the overall "IDEA" of narcasissm when thinking of the Greek myth of Narcassis I would like to suggest the following ideas
- narcasissm seems to be behaving like we do when we are a child ie less than say 3 or 4
I feel narcasissm images would be found around the moon. Now not every moon with difficult aspects would play out like that but it may
A family member who is no longer with us and was quite old when she died, had many of the characteristics of narcasissm. She was an intelligent women at a mental level but emotionally like a demanding & self centered child
Now it is normal for a child of 3to exhibit demanding & see themselves as the centre of the world and see everyones motives caused by them, as a child of 3 is just starting out in life
But this lady was like that all her life.
Her Moon was in Leo square to her Saturn in Scorpio
She lost her mother at 7 and her father at 14.
Her husband who she married when she was 21, treated her like "the princess" all her life and let her behave in this way.
I feel she have never recovered from the loss of her mother and father and did have any lifestyle counselling (as it wouldnt ever really happen in those days I guess anyway)
 
BobZemco

BobZemco

Well-known member
Kingsley said:
I did some research on Narcissism and the asteroid Vesta. You might wish to read this
Death of a Narcissist: Insights to Vesta
Click to expand...

I don't see where the article is valid.

The symptoms for narcissism are:
  • Overreacts to criticism, becoming angry or humiliated
  • Uses others to reach goals
  • Exaggerates own importance
  • Entertains unrealistic fantasies about achievements, power, beauty, intelligence or romance
  • Has unreasonable expectation of favorable treatment
  • Needs constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
  • Is easily jealous
It was a bit of a shock to see Karen Carpenter's name on the list, since she was quite clearly not narcistic. In Saddam's case, perhaps some are confusing megalomania with narcissim. They are similar, but not the same. As with all psychiatric/psychological diagnoses, all symptoms must be present, not just one or two or a few.

I think the best indication might Saturn, Neptune and Sun when forming a t-square.
 
Kingsley

Kingsley

Well-known member
Gidday Bob, thanks for your opinions. That seems to be a mixed list of symptoms you list, which could apply to a few categories. I think my blog was investigating Vesta and Narcissism and I am not saying that Karen Carpenter was a narcissist even though she did have some eating disorders I believe.

I hope you understand what most people seem to get mixed up between personality traits versus disorders. Obviously Warren Beatty doesn't have a disorder.

I hear what you are putting forward to back your statement (opinion) about my blog on Narcissism however I strongly disagree with you Bob.

best
Kingsley


Kingsley



In my understanding the narcissist has little empathy for others
 
S

Sansamark

Member
This is a really interesting subject and one i would like to voice my opinion on. Having studies a bit of psychology, I beleive narcissism to have be instigated by an amalgamation of pschological medical condition and of effected by astrological issues. However, I truly beleive that if the sufferer is aware that he or she is narcasistic then something can be done, which lies not in psychological make-up, nor astrological systems, but the innate effort that all humans must make in order to be accepted. For the world of the narcasist is not only difficult for everyone else but also difficult for themselves.
 
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Natasha

Natasha

Well-known member
I am feeling that people can be narcasistic and also be able to have a normal life. We dont know intimate details about Karen Carpenter or Warren Beattys personal lives so my feeling is that they could very well have some narcasissm tendencies.
People can & do live ordinary lives keeping up successful careers and run businesses and own property and have relationships and still have personality traits like narcasissm. In fact very successful people seem to not escape from these personality challanges and more than the person who cannot hold down a successful job etc. And people do change the patterns which cause the exhibition of narcasissm - mostly thru counselling. Plus people dont always change 100% from narcasissm traits - its not like turning a car on or off. Some with counselling improve by 50% some 25% depending how they can and want to change that inner dialogue for instance.
Psychology drugs rarely resolve personality "disorders" like narcasissm as far as I can see - they just push down things then as soon as the drug is stopped it all comes back worse than ever.
It does seem that counselling combined with inner work seems to help
Astrologically the best time is when Pluto aspects luminaries and to a lesser extend the other inners. It opens the capacity for permanent change when combined with counselling.
 
BobZemco

BobZemco

Well-known member
Natasha said:
I am feeling that people can be narcasistic and also be able to have a normal life. We dont know intimate details about Karen Carpenter or Warren Beattys personal lives so my feeling is that they could very well have some narcasissm tendencies.
Click to expand...

Sure we do. Karen Carpenter died of a heart attack because she was anorexic-bulemic. She didn't think she was beautiful, hardly narcissistic. She was not one to demand the spotlight, as was obvious from the fact that the name of the band was "The Carpenters," not "Karen Carpenter," and she preferred to sit behind the drums while she sang, rather than grabbing attention by standing in front with the spotlight. In fact, she had no narcissistic traits whatsoever.
 
BobZemco

BobZemco

Well-known member
Sansamark said:
However, I truly beleive that if the sufferer is aware that he/she is narcasistic then something can be done
Click to expand...

That's true for any disorder. The problem has always been getting kleptomaniacs, or narcissists or substances abusers and others to see that they are.
 
Natasha

Natasha

Well-known member
BobZemco said:
Sure we do. Karen Carpenter died of a heart attack because she was anorexic-bulemic. She didn't think she was beautiful, hardly narcissistic. She was not one to demand the spotlight, as was obvious from the fact that the name of the band was "The Carpenters," not "Karen Carpenter," and she preferred to sit behind the drums while she sang, rather than grabbing attention by standing in front with the spotlight. In fact, she had no narcissistic traits whatsoever.
Click to expand...
Interesting Bob - I don’t know anything about Karen Carpenter - wonder how she was felt to be narcissist by someone. Perhaps being a bulimic was enough for the person to think she had some narcissism issues. I personally don’t know enough about bulimia to comment but am sure there would be many reasons that people become bulimic & many more than one underlying reason whether narcissism is one I am not sure.

I felt that narcissism could be more that outward self aggrandizement tho.

I had this feeling that it INCLUDED PATTERNS which outwardly look like the neediness and self focus a small child normally exhibits and somehow a narcissistic person does not get emotionally past that preschool neediness.

Whether it is openly exhibited or not I am not sure - my feeling was that it sometimes may not be as the person may have issues with feeling the world thinks they are entitled to attention but crave it personally
.
 
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S

Sansamark

Member
BobZemco said:
That's true for any disorder. The problem has always been getting kleptomaniacs, or narcissists or substances abusers and others to see that they are.
Click to expand...
Yes of course. I guess i know quite a few people who simple say "yes i do need constant attention but that is just the way i am" or "i am just really quite self-centered, can´t help it, its me". It is not a good enough excuse to go around being selfish and mean and excuse it merely by owning up to it as being a personality trait. If you are clever enough to KNOW you are, then you are clever enough to DO something about it.
 
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BobZemco

BobZemco

Well-known member
Kingsley said:
Gidday Bob, thanks for your opinions. That seems to be a mixed list of symptoms you list, which could apply to a few categories.
Click to expand...

It's straight from the APA (American Psychology Association) diagnosis handbook.

In order to be diagnosed as a narcissist, one must possess all traits listed, not just a couple.

Kingsley said:
I hope you understand what most people seem to get mixed up between personality traits versus disorders. Obviously Warren Beatty doesn't have a disorder.
Click to expand...

No, he doesn't, and the fact that at one time in his career he may have over-exaggerated his importantance as an actor and director doesn't suggest that he has narcissistic traits or tendencies.

I watch Heaven Can Wait about 4-5 times a year. It's a very humurous film that he co-directed with Buck Henry (who also wrote the script), which is something a narcissist would never even consider doing.
 
Kingsley

Kingsley

Well-known member
I would check the DSM1V diagnostics Bob, The Narcissist is within a cluster of other like-disorders such as anti social and also gets mixed up with women diagnosed with the Borderline personality. There are many very successful narcissistic people in the world. It would seem that blogging in the last several years has also given rise to an outlet for "narcissim on the net".

kingsley
 
blueheron

blueheron

Well-known member
DofS said:
well from what I know, Leo is the most conceited **** in the zodiac which makes him the biggest narcasist.
Click to expand...

Guess you don't know much.

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P

Polo

Well-known member
Raindrops said:
Narcisstic Personality Disorder Symptoms:

"Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance and a deep need for admiration. They believe that they're superior to others and have little regard for other people's feelings. But behind this mask of ultra-confidence lies a fragile self-esteem, vulnerable to the slightest criticism.





==========================



That's everyone.
Click to expand...
 
blueheron

blueheron

Well-known member
pudinnpop said:
I was having this talk with my sister and a freind about people who are truly narcasists.And i know a couple of ppl just like this!!! Its a personality disorder one which doesnt have a cure really.Anyways i looked at the charts of these two ppl and saw both had some jupiter squares,especially to the asc,also venus and at times pluto.First house.

Im sure other aspects would streghten this too but for now what im trying to study is planets that may indicate such a disorder,and these is what ive came up with.

So any discussion on this would be great as im trying to learn more about phycological astrology.I just find this fasinating.Thought id share on the forum:)
Click to expand...

It's interesting that you found this little tidbit. George Bush Jr has Jupiter conjunct Moon, square Sun. It's been my experience with the Jupiter square that the native is arrogant. That would be a factor in narciciss... however you spell it.

I have a client with Jupiter square her Sun, and she tells me that she has to always self-reflect and self-correct because it's natural for her mind to jump to a judgmental and arrogant conclusion.

Jupiter squares can also cause a person to be inappropriately enthusiastic. This (taken with other factors of course,) could partly explain the "grandiosity" of narcissism.

However, one must always take all factors into account, and not jump to conclusions too quickly. In serious cases, I'd wager severe afflictions from Saturn/Mars/Pluto.
 
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