Kaiousei no Senshi
Premium Member
Since the thread concerning Ceres apparently erupted in a series of misunderstandings and defensive positions, I decided to pick up Arian's idea and go ahead and create a thread concerning Ceres (and the rest of the Quartet if it evolves into that) and the proposed philosophies that surround her.
Of the several, I can think of two that stood out the most. The first assessing possible Sign rulerships, and the second the idea of planets and gender and archetypes that stem from that.
The first being Sign rulerships, some quotes from various users containing the ideas they posted in Joanna's (hope I spelled your name right, getting names wrong makes me very upset) interpretation thread. (Please note, some content may be edited so that they do not appear targeted at one member [as some were] but to be applied to everyone and taken in a less direct manner, the ideas presented, however, are preserved)
After skimming through countless articles, the three most chosen Signs to fall under Ceres' domain are Cancer, Virgo, and Taurus. At least with Virgo and Taurus you don't run into the idea of leaving a planet (Luna) without any Sign of domicile, which is a little extreme, I think. Virgo's and Taurus's rulers, however, do have another Sign to fall back on as Saturn, Jupiter, and Mars have been forced to do.
Second being gender associated with the Quartet. Again, snippets from users in the interpretation thread. (same note as above)
A third point, which was not so much touched on is symbolism and the general nature of Ceres herself. (Same note)
There, okay, I think I took out everything that was usable. If I missed something, please point me to it, I put this together rather quickly.
Feel free to introduce any ideas and charts that represent these ideas if you have them. It should be interesting...
I wanted to come up with something good to close out the introductory post, but I decided to be unoriginal and couldn't come up with anything, however, I think Lilly does it the best with this warning in the interpretation thread.
Of the several, I can think of two that stood out the most. The first assessing possible Sign rulerships, and the second the idea of planets and gender and archetypes that stem from that.
The first being Sign rulerships, some quotes from various users containing the ideas they posted in Joanna's (hope I spelled your name right, getting names wrong makes me very upset) interpretation thread. (Please note, some content may be edited so that they do not appear targeted at one member [as some were] but to be applied to everyone and taken in a less direct manner, the ideas presented, however, are preserved)
joannski3 (paraphrasing the book Asteriod Goddesses) said:Ceres is symbolized in astrology by the sickle-- the gift of agriculture. She represents unconditional love, the love that is naturally passed from mother to infant. She is best depicted by the signs Cancer, Taurus-Scorpio polarity, and Virgo
Cancer- as ruler of cancer she represents the archetype of the universal mother. How we recieve and give nurturance, how we develop feelings of self-worth, how we provide for and care for others. Also how we respond neurotically if these needs are not met.
Taurus-Scorpio Polarity- governs lesson of attachment and aversion, pathology of loss and rejection, capacity of grief and sorrow, principle of sharing.
Virgo- she addresses the issues of productivity, growth, self reliance, and work.
Kaiousei no Senshi said:I don't feel Ceres rules any Sign, but instead represents the Earthy Triplicity (perhaps in a cycle) and does best when placed in any of the three.
After skimming through countless articles, the three most chosen Signs to fall under Ceres' domain are Cancer, Virgo, and Taurus. At least with Virgo and Taurus you don't run into the idea of leaving a planet (Luna) without any Sign of domicile, which is a little extreme, I think. Virgo's and Taurus's rulers, however, do have another Sign to fall back on as Saturn, Jupiter, and Mars have been forced to do.
Second being gender associated with the Quartet. Again, snippets from users in the interpretation thread. (same note as above)
lilljgc (using astrology to combat mythology) said:In the natal chart of Ceres, for example, Ceres is located in house 4-the house that is said to be *the father* so I truly am not sure how the current *definition* of Ceres came into being. Ceres was in Taurus at the time, thus ruled by venus, and in the natal of ceres, venus was in saturn's sign,Aquarius, again emphasising the *Father* aspect of Ceres. Even further,Saturn was in Leo, and the sun was in capricorn-so mutual reception between those two.
I am at a loss as to how ceres has been ascribed feminine qualities.The moon WAS in cancer that day-again the moon/cancer is natural ruler of the fourth so agriculture seems to be an obvious connection to Ceres.
i see no evidence whatsoever that the 4 asteroids have more of an identity for women than men-especially when I see pallas in particular, so prominent in the charts of *successful* men, but not the case in the charts of *successful* women.
Arian Maverick said:Women have had nothing but masculine archetypes in their natal charts since the creation of astrology, with the notable exceptions of the Moon and Venus.
As each "new" planets was discovered and humanity gained access to their higher energies, masculine archetypes were continuously ascribed until, finally, the energy of the goddess began to enter humanity's consciousness with the introduction of the four "asteroids." I believe it is highly significant that one of these "asteroids," Ceres, now has the status of a minor planet.
Kaiousei no Senshi said:Perhaps no one in this thread suggested the idea, but you will find several articles that range from saying the Quartet have no interpretation in a man's chart, to them having little effect, to them having some, to them being just as important as the other planets. The idea of the Quartet being 'purely feminine' is out there, and it's total and complete BS.
Trust me, as a young man I feel the Quartet in my life, regardless of what some crazy astrologer tries to tell me about them not being useful to me because I have a Y chromosome.
lillyjgc said:I don't think it is very *scientific* to say that because other planets have been ascribed masculine archetypes, women should make a grab for the asteroids! surely all the planets exhibit a male and female application.
Which is exactly my point. The *quartet* obviously applies to both genders.
But I am curious why many of the sources I've googled seem to be intent on making them particularly female.
Kaiousei no Senshi said:This is actually a very good point that you raise, Lilly. The only planets that are archetypally fully masculine or fully feminine are Sol (expressed exclusively through his rulership of Leo) and Luna (expressed exclusively through her rulership of Cancer). Mercury exhibits its masculine side through his rulership of Gemini and its feminine side through his rulership of Virgo. Venus expresses her masculine side through her rulership of Libra and expresses her feminine side through her rulership of Taurus. Mars expresses his masculine side through Aries, and his feminine side through Scorpio. Jupiter's masculine side through Sagittarius and his feminine side through Pisces. Even Saturn expresses his feminine side through Capricorn and his masculine through Aquarius. Two halves (male AND female) through the same planet.
However, I do feel I need to make this point clear as well. Just because Saturn is termed a 'he' or Vesta a 'she' isn't something that stems from astrological archetypes, but from the gender of the god themselves. In all forms of astrology, the gods named for the planets repeat in the same fashion, the "Venus" god is always female (Ishtar, etc), the "Mars" god always male (Nergal, etc). Even Mercury (admittedly asexual by all classical astrologers) is signifed by the pronoun 'he'. Not because the planet itself is masculine (obviously, it is not) but because the god the planet was named for was.
Gaer said:In my opinion, the dangerous path is to then concentrate only on motherhood, which obviously only relates to women, rather than to concentrate on support, nurturing, perhaps even mentoring—in short, anything that puts you in the background while you put your energy into helping other people get on their feet, make the best of themselves, be the best they can.
My main concern is that this discussion does not degenerate into a pissing contest for who gets to claim Ceres. And I believe that was your point earlier, if I did not misunderstand. In other words, if the whole "Goddess" idea becomes so stressed that people pay no attention to Ceres in the charts of men, I think something very bad will happen. We will only see one side of the picture. I'm too Libran to like that idea!
The important thing, to me, is that as we are evolving, we are moving away from glorifying all that is traditionally male and making all that is traditionally female less important. Also moving away from defining men and women according to traditonal roles/values, which are just a way of putting people into boxes or figurative prisons.
I just finished carefully looking at two charts, of two family members. One is male, the other female. Both are incredibly good parents, supportive, very caring people.
Both have Ceres emphasized in their charts.
One, the mother, has a grand trine, Ceres/Sun/Moon. Ceres is angular, right on the 7th.
The other, father, has Ceres forming a grand trine with Mercury/Uranus in the 7th and Jupiter in the 11th. He supported his father until his death and is still taking care of his mother. If he made any mistakes raising his son, he may have been too lenient, too "soft".
This is hardly conclusive, but it is a start.
Ceres is also important in my chart. It is sextile Sun/Neptune and sextile MC/Pallas. I'm a teacher. I've spent decades mentoring, most often young kids. The one square, Ceres to Mercury, probably shows that I have to be very careful not to be too hard on people, especially with my tongue. I can push too hard, and then I get tears.
Arian Maverick said:Surely you have heard of the ancient axion, "As above, so below?" You can chide me all you want for being unscientific, but I refuse to allow astrology to descend into a calculation of formulae that can be applied to any particular individual regardless of differences that may exist. Cannot astrology be both an art and a science?
Also, do you truly believe that it was a mistake for these asteroids to be ascribed female archetypes, that if we had the opportunity to do so, we should go back and correct this? Surely you have studied astrology long enough to recognize the importance of synchronicity, of the events that were occurring during the time a particular body was discovered? I do not believe it was a "mistake" that scientists ascribed these asteroids with the names of goddesses any more than it was a "mistake" that a child was born at the "wrong time." Such mistakes simpl[y] do not happen.
Of course we are not limited to the archetypes of the names presented to us, but I believe that they play a certain role; you cannot completely disregard these archetypes even if your personal opinions differ from those of others. Ceres' identity and role in a natal chart isn't yet firmly established, yet I do not think it is possible to win the "fight" to make Ceres a masculine archetype. And what does it matter, anyway, as long as the sign and house placements as well as aspects in the natal chart provide us with greater information about an individual? Isn't this one of the true purposes of astrology?
A third point, which was not so much touched on is symbolism and the general nature of Ceres herself. (Same note)
lillyjgc (mythology) said:Hi all- interesting topic:
Here's a link for those who are exploring ceres.
[URL="http://en.mimi.hu/astrology/ceres.html"]http://en.mimi.hu/astrology/ceres.html[/URL]
Arian Maverick (psychological symbolism) said:This was an excellent post, and quite sychronistic as well; I don't normally read magazines in the library, but I had time to spare today and browsed through a copy of Psychology Today. The main article that attracted my attention was one about young women and eating disorders, how colleges have become something of a "breeding ground" for such unhealthy behavior because young people have been increasingly brought together with those of their own age not only in school but in extracurricular activities as well; with the gender ratio at most colleges and universities tipping more towards females, some psychologists are concerned that increased contact of young women with others like themselves with fuel competition between them for the attention of males.
Along with striving for the perfect resume, more and more young women are attempting to attain the perfect body, and this has resulted in much distortion in how they view themselves and others.
Therefore, I believe it is no coincidence that you were to bring up this topic at this time; the archetype of Ceres needs to be restored into the mass consciousness.
Kaiousei no Senshi (forgetting the post I was referencing said:I do agree with the connection between Ceres and eating disorders, either a lack of an or excess of foods. However, one thing is that Ceres is very, very much like Saturn and I didn't see that touched on in your post.
However, philosophy is something I'll argue with you about. I don't enjoy the idea of Ceres as the 'great mother' as mothers are something that are already seen in the significations of Luna. However, whereas Luna is directly a parent-child connection, Ceres continues the relationship to close bonds between peers, people whose shoulders we can cry on. Instead of the Great Mother, I propose the Providing Soldier. She has a positive side which is shown in a never-ending flow of met necessities, and she has a negative side that removes that which we need most.
Arian Maverick (psychological symbolism) said:This one was in a different magazine of a much different nature; it was some woman's magazine called Glamour. I picked it up because something on the cover attracted my attention, and I quickly thumbed through the pages to find an article written by a Hollywood actor describing his various experiences with women who had undergone plastic surgery, something that is apparently not uncommon in LA. He had described some of his awkward experiences with women with fake breasts and such while intertwining his thoughts and opinions about plastic surgery, trying to determine why the realization that a woman had chosen to alter her body in this way always produced a strange reaction in him, why he wasn't able to view this woman as attractive as he had before.
He finally came to the conclusion that most of the women he had met did not seem to have gone under the knife for the "right" reasons; I believe he thought the "right" reason was to bolster confidence that was already strong within the individual. Yet he noticed that many of the women who had undergone these procedures had either done so to please men they had been with or to mask some body insecurity they had experienced in middle school or high school.
Gaer (psychological symbolism said:So far I've seen Ceres linked to:
nature/the environment
reproductive issues of an adult woman
pregnancy and childbirth, birth control or menstrual cycles.
motherly love
agriculture and farming
family bonds and relationships
productive areas in a natal horoscope
grief and loss
lillyjgc (mythology) said:Ceres
by Micha F. Lindemans
The old-Italian goddess of agriculture, grain, and the love a mother bears for her child. The cult of Ceres was originally closely connected with that of Tellus, the goddess earth. In later mythology, Ceres is identified with the Greek Demeter. She is the daughter of Saturn and the mother of Proserpina.
Ceres had a temple on the Aventine Hill, were she was worshipped together with Liber and Libera. Her festival, the Cerealia, was celebrated on April 19. Ceres is portrayed with a scepter, a basket with flowers or fruits, and a garland made of the ears of corn. Another festival was the Ambarvalia, held in May.
Nexus7 with a fantastic question said:How would most people here differentiate between what Ceres represents in the chart and what the natal Moon still represents?
lillyjgc (mythology) said:http://www.astrologicallyspeaking.com/ceres.htm
and here's an interesting link-for those *new to Ceres*-I'm not saying I fully endorse this interpretation, but there is a dearth of information about Ceres...
Nexus7 (symbolism and application) said:I have seen the symbolism to do with grains crop up, to to speak, plenty of times now, so presumably Ceres ought to have a big link with the agricultural and maybe catering industries too. 'Ceres' and 'cereals' after all. I think it figures reasonably strongly for the first election chart for the EU, with heir food piles and their bureaucratic approach to food preparation....I do remember reading a book by one Adelle Davis at a tender age, explaining why nutrition was so importatnt - unfortunately, she pooh-poohed the idea that wheat could really be a problem for many people. Demetra George mentioned that Ceres and Moon were in opposition in her chart. Well, I have them in square, so my experiece there was that Davis was both very right and very wrong about quite a few things there.
Funnily enough, someone started wangling with me and with someone else on another forum recently, about why the need for more goddesses. There is a good friend of mine, a professional chef, who takes huge pride in her work - Ceres rising in Leo. I was then asked if Venus was also strong in her chart - as it happens she has Venus on the Descendant, at which point there was a triumphant 'told you so.'
All the same, when I discovered that Ceres position: it certainly did seem appropriate.
There, okay, I think I took out everything that was usable. If I missed something, please point me to it, I put this together rather quickly.
Feel free to introduce any ideas and charts that represent these ideas if you have them. It should be interesting...
I wanted to come up with something good to close out the introductory post, but I decided to be unoriginal and couldn't come up with anything, however, I think Lilly does it the best with this warning in the interpretation thread.
lillyjgc said:I think its important NOT to just blindly accept the modern trend of throwing meanings at celestial bodies based on the mythology around their name alone.
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