Problem with astrology not working

I wanted to figure out why the chart from this thread:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76065

Says the native will have money yet she claims she's been struggling really badly with money. Any ideas as to why it is? Her 2nd ruler is in rulership and in a grand fire trine.

"My entire life I have experienced the worst kind of luck with money. I am really struggling at the moment and just read that Aquarians are generally unlucky in financial matters."

I mean can anyone solve this? Cause the only possible cause would be that her time of birth is wrong. Who knows?

Her birth time seems fine to me.

That's the problem with not looking at any divisional charts etc - you will undoubtedly miss things. Divisional charts and "parts"/"lots" will often clear a lot of things up.

However, even in the normal chart you can see SOME things, but there's enough there to make one think things would generally be alright due to Jupiter as you mention. However, Jupiter is at the end of a sign (planets at the end of odd signs will often not be able to hold things together so well and let them fall apart). More importantly though, Saturn is right on the 4th cusp. The 4th is important for money as well, being the square of 2 (and ruling over land, bank deposits etc).

In the divisional chart problems become obvious though. For example, in the 2nd divisional chart, Venus will be in fall and aspecting the second sign - if you use placidus cusps the 2nd cusp will also be there and a cusp with a planet in fall is itself going to be destroyed. (Mind you, I don't use placidus cusps).

Hi,

Whose chart are we reading here? Yours or someone else's?

First of all, having a fire Grand trine from Mars in the 2nd may just indicate an OUTFLOW of cash—not an incoming flow.

And in looking at the 2nd house, the ruler of the house is of utmost importance. Neptune rules Pisces and it is OPPOSED by SATURN. So that means financial restrictions and difficulties would be expected.

Also, Chiron is in her 2nd:

http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/chiron21.5.html

Chiron in the 2nd house: Chiron teaches and gives advise. The 2nd house is money, possessions, and values. You can show other people how to take care of their money better than you take care of your own. In fact, your own finances could be a mess. Sometimes, this placement can make for a miser, but the money collected never brings any pleasure or get rid of the inner fear that there will be no resources. Most likely, this is because the person has a low sense of self-worth and feels that they don't really deserve any money or possessions. In other cases, they may squander or give away what they have for the same reason. It is important to remember that if there are problems with money or possessions, that these are most likely not the real issue. The sense of self-worth is the key here.



https://vestalyn.wordpress.com/2014/03/07/chiron-in-the-houses/
Chiron in the 2nd house:*This shows your deepest wound residing in your sense of self-worth. You may have trouble seeing the worth in your own being without having something to offer. This placement usually shows disappointment in one’s self when one is having financial difficulties. It can give one an exaggerated need for material assets. When one is well equipped materially, one will still not be happy until they find the worth in their spirit and their own being rather than what they own. You are not your possessions, your worth is not what you have to physically offer. You can see the worth in others who aren’t well off and can be very helpful in getting them to see the positive sides to themselves that exclude the material, but when it comes to yourself, you are not as kind. This placement shows a need for finding things of value inside yourself rather than outside yourself. When you truly find your personal worth you will be able to transcend your deepest wound.

Rawiri said:

Her birth time seems fine to me.

That's the problem with not looking at any divisional charts etc - you will undoubtedly miss things. Divisional charts and "parts"/"lots" will often clear a lot of things up.

However, even in the normal chart you can see SOME things, but there's enough there to make one think things would generally be alright due to Jupiter as you mention. However, Jupiter is at the end of a sign (planets at the end of odd signs will often not be able to hold things together so well and let them fall apart). More importantly though, Saturn is right on the 4th cusp. The 4th is important for money as well, being the square of 2 (and ruling over land, bank deposits etc).

In the divisional chart problems become obvious though. For example, in the 2nd divisional chart, Venus will be in fall and aspecting the second sign - if you use placidus cusps the 2nd cusp will also be there and a cusp with a planet in fall is itself going to be destroyed. (Mind you, I don't use placidus cusps).

Click to expand...

How can you know about someone's divisonal charts? Sounds like an interesting technique. Would you mind telling me how?

aquarius7000 said:

Hi,

Whose chart are we reading here? Yours or someone else's?

Click to expand...

It's somebody else's chart. It's not my own chart.

katydid said:

First of all, having a fire Grand trine from Mars in the 2nd may just indicate an OUTFLOW of cash—not an incoming flow.

And in looking at the 2nd house, the ruler of the house is of utmost importance. Neptune rules Pisces and it is OPPOSED by SATURN. So that means financial restrictions and difficulties would be expected.

Also, Chiron is in her 2nd:

http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/chiron21.5.html

Chiron in the 2nd house: Chiron teaches and gives advise. The 2nd house is money, possessions, and values. You can show other people how to take care of their money better than you take care of your own. In fact, your own finances could be a mess. Sometimes, this placement can make for a miser, but the money collected never brings any pleasure or get rid of the inner fear that there will be no resources. Most likely, this is because the person has a low sense of self-worth and feels that they don't really deserve any money or possessions. In other cases, they may squander or give away what they have for the same reason. It is important to remember that if there are problems with money or possessions, that these are most likely not the real issue. The sense of self-worth is the key here.



https://vestalyn.wordpress.com/2014/03/07/chiron-in-the-houses/
Chiron in the 2nd house:*This shows your deepest wound residing in your sense of self-worth. You may have trouble seeing the worth in your own being without having something to offer. This placement usually shows disappointment in one’s self when one is having financial difficulties. It can give one an exaggerated need for material assets. When one is well equipped materially, one will still not be happy until they find the worth in their spirit and their own being rather than what they own. You are not your possessions, your worth is not what you have to physically offer. You can see the worth in others who aren’t well off and can be very helpful in getting them to see the positive sides to themselves that exclude the material, but when it comes to yourself, you are not as kind. This placement shows a need for finding things of value inside yourself rather than outside yourself. When you truly find your personal worth you will be able to transcend your deepest wound.

Click to expand...

I thought the same thing since Neptune is opposing Saturn, but in this case Neptune is in the sign of Sagittarius, while Saturn is at 29 Taurus, meaning that there is no opposition by sign... Some people might say that there isn't even an opposition since signs aren't opposite signs.

The method is different for each different division. I have software to do it for me - although many of them I can just calculate quickly in my head.

For example, the 3rd division which shows how well a person gets along with siblings, friends, associates etc is calculated by dividing each sign into 10 degrees. The first 10 degrees are the same as the sign, the next are the 5th sign and the final 10 degrees are the 9th sign. It is quite easy to see in ones head quickly in that case the "dignities" of the planets as concerns that issue.

So in this chart for example, we'd end up with Mercury in Virgo, Saturn in Capricorn, Mars in Sag etc. From a brief glance I would expect the person to have got along quite well with the people in her life most of the time (proper analysis would look at important planets and places more closely i.e. Mars, 3rd lord etc)

They are called "vargas" or even just divisional charts in Indian astrology. There is a similar principle used by some western astrologers called "harmonic charts" (which I haven't really looked at or practically used so can't comment on but they are probably interesting...)

Rawiri said:

The method is different for each different division. I have software to do it for me - although many of them I can just calculate quickly in my head.

For example, the 3rd division which shows how well a person gets along with siblings, friends, associates etc is calculated by dividing each sign into 10 degrees. The first 10 degrees are the same as the sign, the next are the 5th sign and the final 10 degrees are the 9th sign. It is quite easy to see in ones head quickly in that case the "dignities" of the planets as concerns that issue.

So in this chart for example, we'd end up with Mercury in Virgo, Saturn in Capricorn, Mars in Sag etc. From a brief glance I would expect the person to have got along quite well with the people in her life most of the time (proper analysis would look at important planets and places more closely i.e. Mars, 3rd lord etc)

They are called "vargas" or even just divisional charts in Indian astrology. There is a similar principle used by some western astrologers called "harmonic charts" (which I haven't really looked at or practically used so can't comment on but they are probably interesting...)

Click to expand...

What software do you use? Also, what sign is the one that you have to divide? Let's say you wanna do a divisional chart related to money, do you divide the sign that is on the cusp of the 2nd house or what?

obsidianmineral said:

I thought the same thing since Neptune is opposing Saturn, but in this case Neptune is in the sign of Sagittarius, while Saturn is at 29 Taurus, meaning that there is no opposition by sign... Some people might say that there isn't even an opposition since signs aren't opposite signs.

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I don't believe it has to be 'by sign.' An opposition is geometrical, in spite of by zodiac sign, in my opinion.

I think the evidence that it is an opposition, can be seen in the chart you put forth. You say that astrology didn't 'work' and yet we see that the ruler of the 2nd is being opposed by Saturn. Which means restriction and obstruction. So dourest that indicate that the opposition is operating?



Saturn opposed Neptune;

Usually this includes elements of distortion, which with Saturn and Neptune tends to involve fears of failure, suspicions of motives, cloudy judgments, deceit, caution and wariness. These are the more negative qualities of blocked planetary energies, and yet you often fail to realize that the world you are perceiving is a mirror image of your own attitudes.

This fear of failure is inhibitory to some degree, and it is likely that you will withdraw from situations of competition, retreating into feelings of inadequacy, imagining various types of conspiracy being hatched against you in secret. You don't really trust people, and that attitude is communicated intangibly to others, so that a vicious circle is perpetuated.
http://astromatrix.org/Horoscopes/Planet-Aspects/Saturn-Opposition-Neptune

I use Solar Fire and Kala. Both of those will draw up those charts. (In solar fire you would go under Vedic and then in the lower right is the option to select whatever division you want)

You divide ALL the signs up and generate a new chart to look at.

For example, I attached the chart you gave in the D3 division (for siblings etc)

The divisions are different depending on what you look at - but everything is divided to create a derivative chart.

katydid said:

I don't believe it has to be 'by sign.' An opposition is geometrical, in spite of by zodiac sign, in my opinion.

I think the evidence that it is an opposition, can be seen in the chart you put forth. You say that astrology didn't 'work' and yet we see that the ruler of the 2nd is being opposed by Saturn. Which means restriction and obstruction. So dourest that indicate that the opposition is operating?



Saturn opposed Neptune;

Usually this includes elements of distortion, which with Saturn and Neptune tends to involve fears of failure, suspicions of motives, cloudy judgments, deceit, caution and wariness. These are the more negative qualities of blocked planetary energies, and yet you often fail to realize that the world you are perceiving is a mirror image of your own attitudes.

This fear of failure is inhibitory to some degree, and it is likely that you will withdraw from situations of competition, retreating into feelings of inadequacy, imagining various types of conspiracy being hatched against you in secret. You don't really trust people, and that attitude is communicated intangibly to others, so that a vicious circle is perpetuated.
http://astromatrix.org/Horoscopes/Planet-Aspects/Saturn-Opposition-Neptune

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You reminded me of my Saturn square Neptune in my chart. I think I do have a crippling fear of failure that's been affecting me. But that's in-sign. I don't believe as much in out of sign aspects since planets don't work in a way that match the aspect.

Rawiri said:

I use Solar Fire and Kala. Both of those will draw up those charts. (In solar fire you would go under Vedic and then in the lower right is the option to select whatever division you want)

You divide ALL the signs up and generate a new chart to look at.

For example, I attached the chart you gave in the D3 division (for siblings etc)

The divisions are different depending on what you look at - but everything is divided to create a derivative chart.

Click to expand...

I was gonna start using divisional charts, but considering how awful my natal chart becomes using the sidereal zodiac and how TERRIBLE my D60 and D9 charts look... I think I'll stop. I think I do have a good D2 chart though. Cause jeez, my D60 chart is a ascendant ruled by a in


What do you think about the D2 chart of the person in question btw? Does it show that that girl won't have any money?

obsidianmineral said:

You reminded me of my Saturn square Neptune in my chart. I think I do have a crippling fear of failure that's been affecting me. But that's in-sign. I don't believe as much in out of sign aspects since planets don't work in a way that match the aspect.

Click to expand...

I think about it this way. If two planets are opposed, no matter what sign they are in, they will be affected at the same time by transits and progressions. It does not matter if they are in or out of sign---the transits will still be operational.

Pluto squaring them by midpoint will still be felt, no matter what the signs are, if the opposition is close. So that speaks to the efficacy of the geometry, in my opinion.

obsidianmineral said:

I was gonna start using divisional charts, but considering how awful my natal chart becomes using the sidereal zodiac and how TERRIBLE my D60 and D9 charts look... I think I'll stop. I think I do have a good D2 chart though. Cause jeez, my D60 chart is a ascendant ruled by a in


What do you think about the D2 chart of the person in question btw? Does it show that that girl won't have any money?

Click to expand...

Lol. Yes, sometimes things can begin to look a lot more disappointing when you start looking at divisions (or occasionally much better...but it seems to typically be disappointing for many). D60 is quite delicate though, a slight birth time change and you could end up with a different ascendant (or just using a different ayanamsa).

I wouldn't say "no money" - it would have to be completely trashed for that and that is rare. But there are important things that are quite trashed (most of the planets have some major issue) which would cause problems constantly and a lot of low times.

The D2 is a controversial division though...most everyone uses it where all the planets will end up in leo and cancer. But there is controversy about how correct that is and I think it's a mistaken way and do it differently...

obsidianmineral said:

... I don't believe as much in out of sign aspects since planets don't work in a way that match the aspect.

Click to expand...

That is the right approach. The whole logic behind aspects is that the energies of two signs, where the relevant planets are, either support each other (sextile and trine) or doesn't (square and opposition, for instance). So, for E.g., planets in Libra and Sag. will sextile each other, while planets in Libra and Cap will square each other! So yes, the planets HAVE to be in sign.

...Wait, why does the chart say she is supposed to have money? That's not what it says to me. I glanced at the OP before I logged in and I was expecting to see a better-looking chart re: finances seeing as this had several responses already.

Mars is in the 2nd opposite Uranus in the 8th. That in itself doesn't indicate to anyone else unstable finances? Or are people ignoring outer planets? If I were reading the chart that's what I would include. Being domicile really only makes this worse. Moon ruled 6th house with Moon square Saturn...fluctuating employment, work = drudgery. Mars rules MC traditionally, Neptune in 10th can make advances in career seem impossible. Venus making no major aspects. This is supposed to indicate money, how? The Grand Trine?

aquarius7000 said:

That is the right approach. The whole logic behind aspects is that the energies of two signs, where the relevant planets are, either support each other (sextile and trine) or doesn't (square and opposition, for instance). So, for E.g., planets in Libra and Sag. will sextile each other, while planets in Libra and Cap will square each other! So yes, the planets HAVE to be in sign.

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So if Pluto is opposing something very tightly, but is out of sign, you don't think there is really an opposition? Does it really matter if Pluto is in Libra or Virgo if it opposes someones Moon?

I think the signs of the generational planets are much less important that the aspects they make.

obsidianmineral said:

I wanted to figure out why the chart from this thread:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76065

Says the native will have money yet she claims she's been struggling really badly with money. Any ideas as to why it is? Her 2nd ruler is in rulership and in a grand fire trine.

"My entire life I have experienced the worst kind of luck with money. I am really struggling at the moment and just read that Aquarians are generally unlucky in financial matters."

I mean can anyone solve this? Cause the only possible cause would be that her time of birth is wrong. Who knows?

Click to expand...

Your approach is overly simplistic. Not everything is rosy as it appears on the first glance.

(Note: I'm using whole signs)

First thing that catches the eye is that we find L1 (Saturn) on a powerful fixed star Alcyone.

http://www.constellationsofwords.com/stars/Alcyone.html

The way the fixed star exerts its influence is by "coloring" the planet with its influence and thus modifying to an extent planet's original qualities with its own themes and meaning. So, some of Alcyone themes may be prominent in native's life or may reoccur from time to time. It is also important to note that Saturn is out of sect and he also rules the 12th house which, among other things, signifies restrictions to native's independence and ability to be her own person.

One of the most important points in ANY chart is Part of Fortune (POF). POF shows overall external circumstances in native's life, body, health, fortune, wealth and poverty, honors and recognition, good and evil...and it has signification over everything (Bonatti) .... Lot of Fortune, the most influential and most potent place (Valens)
POF (25 CAN 06) is in unfortunate 6th house, ruled by the peregrine Moon in 7th, and for this particular placement Valens states "...men are less prosperous, but not poverty-stricken"
Now, POF is placed exactly on another powerful fixed star, Proycon. In natal astrology, when placed in proximity of a powerful star POF tends to get "damaged" in a way. This is especially the case in proximity of 4 royal stars. Star will still convey powerful gifts to the native but since it has destructive influence on POF (and POF represents everything material) those gifts usually come with the price.
POF is aspected by Mars and Saturn (two malefics). Mars (L10) is well dignified and doesn't signify malefic influence here, it means a lot of action (hard work and effort, most likely intellectual because predominant temperament is sanguine) but the fruits of this effort materialize hard in native's life (square) and this is not very effective (3rd house, inability to act). L10 placement in the cadent house could also signify some restrictive factors that are hindering native's career prospects or unemployment.
Saturn (out of sect) sextile POF shows restrictions and limitations to native's overall well-being, either self-imposed (1st) or generated by (hidden) circumstances (12th).

Ancients considered POF to be of such great importance that they have developed a technique for further insights in native's life using POF as alternative ascendant. POF is placed in 6th house, so the 6th house (Cancer) becomes the 1st house of this new chart, Leo is 2nd house and so on... To avoid confusion I will refer to this chart as "POF chart".

First thing, there is South Node in 2nd house of the POF chart. South Node has malefic influence (of Mars and Saturn combined) and his main signification is that he decreases everything he touches. This is not always bad but in this case all things connected with the 2nd house are decreased.
We also find Moon (L1 of the POF chart) in the 2nd house. This is reoccurring theme: in the main chart L1 (Saturn) is placed in 4th (property, immovable possessions) and in the POF chart L1 (Moon) is in the 2nd (movable possessions). This shows native's striving for possessions (or we can say striving for economic independence). Also, peregrine L1 in 2nd house shows native's inability to choose (or we can say to intuitively feel /Moon/) correct direction when pursuing financial matters.
Sun (L2 of the POF chart) is in his detriment in 8th - very unfortunate placement.

11th house of the POF chart is called "the place of acquisition". It essentially shows where and how native "gets paid". Saturn placed here represents obstacles "to payment". Those obstacles are of the 7th and 8th house things or people. Venus (L11 of the POF chart) is placed in her exaltation in 9th. So, native will obtain material (financial) success in environment connected with 9th house meanings (long journeys, foreign countries, higher education, religion, using her imagination - journeys of the mind etc.) and by doing some venusian things (something connected with young women, fashion, jewelry, art, money etc.).

Returning to the original chart, the same placement (Venus L4, exalted in 2nd) most likely shows her family support in the financial matters. It could also show inheritance.

Jupiter (L2) is in his domicile in 11th which is essentially fortunate house, place of hopes and wishes (again reoccurring theme). It is also the house that shows native's career profits. This is indeed strong L2, fortunately placed but this is not the ONLY influence signifying financial matters. In order to get accurate picture we must take all other influences into account as well.
Jupiter forms a grand trine with Mars and Moon. For this particular combination of planets Valens states: "Jupiter, Mars, and the Moon produce shrewd men, bold, public men with many friends, men advancing to high place from humble fortune and thought worthy of trust. These men are governors, athletes, distinguished men, leaders, supervisors of the masses and of districts. They have a share of offices, stipends, or priesthoods. They fall into reversals and criminal charges, betrayed by their own relatives or by females, and they suffer loss of possessions. Later however they recover them because of religious or other unexpected affairs."
So, this combination has its good and bad sides. In her post, native has mentioned constant career and financial reversals (L2 and L10 are involved). Betterment may come most likely either as a promotion (they have a share of offices) or through "unexpected affairs".

Jupiter in late degrees could indicate that full financial independence may come late(r) in native's life.

This is just a small fraction of everything that can be said about native's financial matters. All those influences, the good and the bad, are mixed together, how it usually goes in life. By using solar returns, profections and other techniques it can be determined when the native will enjoy good influences and when she will suffer bad influences.

obsidianmineral said:

I wanted to figure out why the chart from this thread:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76065

Says the native will have money yet she claims she's been struggling really badly with money. Any ideas as to why it is? Her 2nd ruler is in rulership and in a grand fire trine.

"My entire life I have experienced the worst kind of luck with money. I am really struggling at the moment and just read that Aquarians are generally unlucky in financial matters."

I mean can anyone solve this? Cause the only possible cause would be that her time of birth is wrong. Who knows?

Click to expand...

Hi,
I'm responding to this thread because the OP is 3 days older than my son with a 3+* Asc.(Europe birth). Consequently, major configurations are in the same houses, although Moon is different, and his M.C is exact conjunct Neptune.
Interpretations of their charts will actually be quite different.

Yet I wonder if OP's grandmother would have said the same of his chart;i.e.

When I was a little girl my grandmother drew out my chart and told me I would have abundant wealth in my life....well I am 42 and that hasnt happened yet

Click to expand...

The OP appears to associate 'abundant wealth' with its tangible manifestation, yet Neptune has a reputation for that which is intangible. So, wealth could be that of another nature.

My son suffered from the Saturn-Neptune 'failure complex'. Never quite did his best, so if he did fail he could say he didn't really try!! Failed his final exams when the love interest whom he married took up his time. Family well-off, so there were no money issues for him UNTIL the marriage broke down and a traumatic divorce followed. He hit rock bottom, was penniless, was not allowed unemployment benefits, so had financial aid from family. In effect, he had been a Neptune type 'parasite', living off others since leaving college.

He had to change; pull himself up by his socks. Sink or swim.
He took any sub-sistance job whilst re-schooling, went back to his first love, the helping profession. Found work in the profession but only temporary. Like OP he worked all hours trying to build up and become self-sufficient.
Four years further and his life has turned completely around. He works free-lance, and is also building up a good private client file. His failure complex has vanished, to be replaced by a reputation in his field that businesses seek out. He's repaid all his debts, worked off his mortgage to a repayable amount, re-furnished his home, bought a company as well as private car.

He no longer cries tears of despair but of being unable to understand why he has been so fortunate. His wealth for him is not in his possessions but in his love for his vocation and the joy he gets from it.

His weakness now? He has a tendency to bring home 'lame ducks'.
Understanding how low people can sink, he is easily susceptible to help those who experience difficulties and 'clamp' to him like limpets for a free handout.
Seems the shoe is now on the other foot.

So; yes, out of sign oppositions definitely work.