Suicide and Astrology

R4VEN

Well-known member
Watersign said:
I tried to kill myself with pills and alcohol because of depression and an obsessive love affair.
http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?cid=tvqfileyZzC9A-u1233637891&lang=e&gm=a1&nhor=4&nho2=1&btyp=24subtit&mth=gw&sday=16&smon=6&syr=1997&hsy=-1&zod=&orbp=&rs=0&ast=
I have many times wondered what was going on astrologically to contribute to the horrible darkness and desperation I felt. Just looking now, I see Saturn transiting chiron in the twelfth house. Mars may be moving into a grand cross pluto/moon opposition in the sixth house of health and service. Pluto's near or about to transit the eighth house. Neptune is the in the natal eighth house. Maybe the pills/neptune and pluto/obsession are represented there. Neptunes and Uranus are also transiting the tenth house. I'm not advanced enough to really know what's going on here. I would love some insight though. Am I on target? Am I missing something?:eek:
Also after I recovered I made good changes and everything has been a lot better since. Not happily ever after but it didn't turn out to be a kind of pluto transformative experience in a good way.
I think you're right when you describe it as a `Pluto tranformative experience'. You're right about all you mention, but when you talk in terms of obsessive relationships this smacks of Pluto and Neptune (and maybe Venus, but Venus would have to be affected by one of the transpersonal planets for something as dramatic as this to happen.) During this same time tr Saturn may have been forming a square with your natal Venus - difficulty in relating to others, and a feeling of being limited/restricted in your relationships.

You experienced transiting Pluto's conjunction to Neptune in Sagittarius - and with Neptune in the 8th, conjunct the 8th house cusp. Huge transformation, but not easy. At least you made it through to the other side.......which was obviously the purpose of this time in your life.
 

Virinchi

Well-known member
usually afflicted moon or 5th house gives suicide tendency
in vedic method. nodes if associated with moon, especially north node along with weak moon in 1st or 5th house gives suicde thoughts
also mercury if conjuct with nodes(especially south node) promotes the thought
and if sun is also afflicted then person dares to kill himself

in western i guess its pluto
 

Mist Knacker

Well-known member
In early 2005, I attempted suicide a couple of times.

The second time I did was on February 10, 2005 when I ran my car off of the road. At the time of this, the transiting planets were making no aspects to my natal planets.

During the whole period from January 18, 2005 to March 13, 2005, all of the transiting outer planets were not making any aspects to my natal planets. This period was the most difficult time I ever went through with the two suicide attempts and also a couple of times when I cut myself, though things were quite rough during an approx. 1.5 year period before this (though not this bad). This period was the only one where I had times where I cut myself. About the end of January was when I did the first suicide attempt, and on that one, I overdosed on drugs.

Here's how I consistently felt during this period, especially over the month of February, much of which had never been a problem for me:
Emotional numbness, as if my feelings had been completely turned OFF
I seemed to have a 3-word vocabulary
Often, responses to questions were no more than 1-word
Marked apathy
Anhedonia
Music did not evoke emotional arousal as before
Thoughts were often inhibited which caused me to have trouble describing things
Socially withdrawn
Mood never matched the circumstances at a given time
I saw the world in gray rather than in techni-color
Major OCD
Doing just ordinary daily stuff seemed too much trouble
Incessant mental tics where certain words would repeat over and over in my mind
Had a sense of feeling more 'mechanical' and 'robotic' and having to fake emotions (e.g. laughing) due to the emotional numbness, when, in reality, I did not feel anything at all from whatever was funny at that given time
The times when I was not emotionally numb, I would be in a state of severe depression. It was basically either emotional numbness/flatness or severe suicidal depression. This emotional numbing would, at times, actually lead into this depression due to the opportunities lost to be able to experience joy at that given time as everyone else. In the depression, the emotional pain would be bad that it felt like a giant vacuum cleaner was sucking my mood down. My mind would be in a confused state, and I would be unable to make decisions. Even with the pain and despair, I had no ability to cry. At times, agitation would be mixed in

During this entire time when I was experiencing all of the above, I kept thinking this as some unique form of "depression" or something. I was like, "Whatever the heck it is..." I've read about Schizophrenia and its negative symptoms, and my symptoms sure did fit those, but at the time, I never wanted to consider that I may possibly have had any kind of schizophrenic disorder.

Overall, to sum it up, this is basically what I kept on stating to my parents and also on some posts on mental health forums.
"What's the point of living if you can't feel anything at all??? I might as well be dead because I already feel dead inside."

I was basically just as a walking shell.

The lack of transits then reflected that, particularly at the time of that second suicide attempt.

At the time, the last outer planet transits going on were:
Neptune Square Saturn, which ended on January 17, 2005
Saturn Trine Mars, which finished its second pass on January 13, 2005

The next outer planet transit I would have would be:
Uranus Sextile Sun, which wouldn't begin until March 13, 2005.
It was after the beginning of this transit that I went back to work as things had gotten a bit better by then. Before this, I had been on Leave Of Absence since the end of December 2004.

Attached here are my natal chart and the incident chart.
 

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kazman32

Well-known member
My father committed suicide and I have had terrible bouts of depression (bi-polar) I'm not able to read charts, but I wanted to say somehow hang in there they say "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem) or something like that...I don't have an extremely happy life but I know I have made positive impacts in other;s lives and I guess that gives me some satisfaction, counseling didn't do much for me, but I know it has helped others. I'm experimenting with some different meds, I now I have a dopamine problem, a lot of people have serotonin deficiency's.Meds can help if you can find the right one. For everyone who has felt like killing themselves your not alone! I know how you feel and the emotional pain you struggle with every day.
 

Lost_spirit

Well-known member
Thanks for bringing this back!I am suicidal since I remember myself,so I'm glad to offer my chart for study purposes on this matter.I always considered suicide as a "giving up my life" thing,since I was 13.I'm 26 now.
Thoughts of suicide usually strike me in random days,and they usually last a day,next day I could be happy beyond belief and hate myself for the thoughts I had.But I've also spent some weeks or months planning it ahead 2 or 3 times,I always kept it to myself,so I was not trying to get attention.In the last minute there was always something that kept me from doing it.It was my will to stay strong and fight instead of giving up.
I'm sure it has something to do with my moon square pluto,and with my pluto saturn conjunction.Also Mercury square neptune could lead to these thoughts,with Neptune ruling my 8th house.
I have strong indications that next year may be the year of my death,either by suicide or by anything else.Because at the same time,progressed sun will be conjunct natal saturn and transit Saturn will be conjunct my sun in the solar return for 2010.I hope it's not in the form of suicide,I like to think some random person will do the dirty job for me.I'm surprised that after these years of having these thoughts I never lost my sense of humor.It's probably another part of the brain.:pinched:
 

starlink

Well-known member
Lost Spirit, I am sorry to hear this and I wonder why, when you had this since you were 13, nobody has sent you, and lateron, why you yourself did not seek professional help. There must be a reason for these bouts of depression, for instance, you could have some sort of hormonal imbalance maybe causing this.(not saying that that is the reason but you never know with depression). Have you ever been medically checked on this?-

Looking at your chart I see a very dignified Ascendant ruler, strong in the 1st house and strong in own sign. Then I also see a wonderfully placed Moon, also very strong in own sign and in the fortunate 11th house.(traditionally). And they sextile one another!! AND I see a dignified Jupiter in the 4th house in own sign. Three great positions showing strength, so I cannot imagine that you would be a person who thinks about suicide all the time if it were not caused by a physical imbalance or a psychological trauma.

Yes, Mercury squares Neptune, but Neptune trines the ruler of your Sun. The square can make you a bit delusional and too gullible, prone to desillusions, not really knowing who you really are and that in turn can make you feel very awkward when you are in the public view with that Chiron in the 10th. You might feel different for some reason and think maybe that people dont like you. Maybe you feel worthless. This often happens with Chiron in the 10th house. And as you see, Chiron squares your Ascendant exactly.

,I like to think some random person will do the dirty job for me

I dont think this is a very healthy thought and you really should try not think of death all the time and your own death and whatever. It is probably Neptune, ruler of the 8th trining your Venus, ruler of your Sun bringing these ideas up. Also Moon-Puto of course. By the way, that Venus of yours has to wide an orb to be in square aspect to Uranus/Jupiter. 10° is wide for a square. Mars is and because it conjuncts that Venus, I think Venus is being pulled into that square through Mars. This could cause you to push people away, not wanting too close contact with others. the Neptune square Mercury underlines this.

I'm surprised that after these years of having these thoughts I never lost my sense of humor.It's probably another part of the brain
I think it is your Sun sextile Jupiter/Uranus. (extreme=Uranus, optimism=Jupiter).
Thank God you have this aspect in your chart. It is not only sense of humor, it also gives you optimism which probably saves you in the end.

Now where could all this come from if it is not a hormonal imbalance? You pointed out the Pluto-Moon square. But I also have that in my chart AND a Sun-Pluto square and I never think of these things, so that is not really a valid argument unless you can give a reason for it. It does tend to make you a passionately deep feeling person however, who can be hurt easily.

Which house does Pluto rule in your chart? Your 4th, your family and early upbringing and I suspect that maybe there lies the reason for these bouts of depression you have.
Something probably happened to you in your childhood and it could have scarred you and subconsciously make you want to kill yourself. These feelings come back to you, also subconsciously, maybe because something is triggered in that 4th house or that Moon-Pluto square being transited by the Moon (as you say it lasts so shortly).

The Pluto-Saturn conjunction squares your Mars /Ascendant conjunction and that shows violence. That together with an exact Uranus/Jupiter conjunction in the house of family could therefore show domestic violence which could have strongly affected you and undermined you selfconfidence and selfworth. There could also be alot of pent-up aggression and anger inside yourself.

Still, you cannot put all the blame on the stars. Please read again what I wrote above in my post nr.26 and Nexus's post nr.35. Try concentrating on the positive aspects of your chart. Your creative side (sculpting as a hobby could be a good outlet for you!).

There could be something physically or psychologically out of balance when you have these thoughts and urges. These moments dont just come from nowhere and certainly not from the stars!


[QUOTE by PNDT]
In commiting suicide, mercury plays major role and Moon is the doer.
[/QUOTE]

And this cannot be the reason here either. Your Mercury as well as your Moon are very strongly placed, notwithstanding the square from Mercury to Neptune which makes you a dreamer rather than a suicider. Mercury plays a major role only when there are signs of mental illness I would think and in your chart does not aspect the ruler of your 6th house.
Moon most always functions as trigger to progressions and such, Moon is not "the doer" in my opinion. But maybe PNDT means exactly that.

I do hope you will seek help because it would be a shame to just waste your life and almost waiting for your death to come around the corner. That really is no way to live, pardon me saying this. There is a lot of good to be seen in your chart and the Mutual Reception between Venus and your Sun shows you could be artistic as well. Venus rules your MC so maybe a career in the arts would be something to pursue.

Good luck, STarlink.
 

Lost_spirit

Well-known member
Thank you very much for your reply Starlink.I try to avoid doctors cause I don't want to take any medication,plus,I have some friends who changed for the worst after visiting a psychologist.
My depression could be caused by hormones,since it's usually very temporary,but it's also a mixture of other things in my childhood,teen,and early adult life that affected me negatively.Such as the rejection of people,the betrayal of friends,loneliness,and the absence of compassion and affection from my parents.It's my mother usually who drives me crazy,since she is bossy and very unsupportive.My father is absent,since he works all the time and we rarely communicate.The thing is,most people like my mother,since she is very outgoing and loving,BUT not with me.She also blamed me for a short depression she had a few years ago.
So after all this blaming,I feel I want to be victimized at last,maybe that's why I want to die.I feel like a burden to the people around me,at least to some of them and sometimes I feel they will appreciate me more as a dead person than as a living.
I'm very aware of my good side,I'm into arts,painting and photography and maybe something good can come out of this.And I can be funny as well.I can be really sarcastic about myself and I'm good at giving a funny side to even the worst situations.I'm very loyal and rightful as well.That's my good side.The thing is,I feel so broken and disturbed as a personality,that I can't move on,get a job or do something serious in my life.In other words,I don't want to grow up anymore.:pouty:
 

R4VEN

Well-known member
Which house does Pluto rule in your chart? Your 4th, your family and early upbringing and I suspect that maybe there lies the reason for these bouts of depression you have.
Something probably happened to you in your childhood and it could have scarred you and subconsciously make you want to kill yourself. These feelings come back to you, also subconsciously, maybe because something is triggered in that 4th house or that Moon-Pluto square being transited by the Moon (as you say it lasts so shortly).

The Pluto-Saturn conjunction squares your Mars /Ascendant conjunction and that shows violence. That together with an exact Uranus/Jupiter conjunction in the house of family could therefore show domestic violence which could have strongly affected you and undermined you selfconfidence and selfworth. There could also be alot of pent-up aggression and anger inside yourself.
As a long-term on & off suicide ideator (but not lately since having hit upon some core reasons for this) I can relate to what you are saying, Lost_Spirit, but I also totally agree with what starlink has said in her post.

For the kind of feeling - all your life - of which you speak I would look to the 4th house, and being ruled by Pluto, this would indicate that it is within your early life in your family of origin that your power was compromised in some way. That is, someone (and you have indicated your mother) somehow - mostly unintentionally I would think - stymied your power, so that now in adulthood you feel powerless to go on.

I also agree that medication is not an answer, as it just puts a lid on the true feelings. Depression is your rage - towards your mother, the world - turned in upon yourself. If you can, when you next feel suicidal, allow yourself to feel somthing, anything - other than `I must off myself and get outta this place' - then you can begin to uncover your true beliefs about yourself.

I suspect that whatever happened to you as a child growing up led you to believing things about yourself which are not and never were true. You are going to have to address these beliefs before you can change them. Feeling powerless to do anything other than what you are doing now is a truly terrible feeling. I know all about that. But you do not have to continue to treat yourself in the same way that you felt your mother treated you. This is kinda dumb.
 

starlink

Well-known member
Hi Lost Spirit! thank you for your frank reply. I am glad you do recognize the origin of your problem. Just for you info, I have a brother who is bi-polar and you are right, the medicines do help (against the depressions and because there is some sort of substance which his body is not producing so he gets it in the form of a pil. That is OK. But it does not help getting rid of the underlying psychological problems he also has due to his childhood experiences, so what I actually meant is talking, not medicating. Where he lives he is in a state owned psychiatric facility and they just dont have time to do real psychologic work with their patients, they just calm them down with medication. Horrible!

There are also people these days, who can help you very well without any medication at all. A Psychologist is not allowed to prescribe medicine because they are not MD's. Only psychiatrists can do this as they study medicine before doing psychiatry.

I have gone to a person who balances out chakra's, does hypnotism as well when necessary and helps you remember past life trauma's, for my problems relating to traveling. She is well known here and does give seminars as well. I just cannot look forward to nice things in my life, it is as if I dont deserve it, not even vacations and I also dont feel like visiting other places. This has really blocked me from visiting family and friends who live just about 1 hour's flight away.(I have Saturn square Mercury in my chart and Saturn in the 9th! I had to do forgiving exercises a.o. towards my parents and I also was pointed out what my former life had to do with all this. It has helped me enormously. I know now that it was also my mother as well as my father who took all my initiative away,unintentionally mind you!! My mother was also often depressed, she also blamed her children for loosing her waistline etc. She was a beautiful women and getting fatter after the babies, mmmm.... she just did not like that. But she could not help herself. She just could not give out love ( Venus conjunct Saturn in Virgo). As a child you dont understand those things of course.

Your mother probably has the inability to treat you the way she should treat her own daughter. Ever wondered how her own mother was to her? Maybe she (subconsciously) does not want to give you any more than she got from her own mother. Maybe she is projecting her own anger for her mother (or whomever), on you. There is always a reason for everything. If you can figure out why she was like that, maybe you can let go of your anger and realise that her behavior was not at all meant for you, but someone else. You just happened to be the closest. Maybe if your dad had been home, she would have given it to him!! Maybe she wanted to follow her own dreams and could not because he was not there and she was the only one who had to look after you.
All sorts of possibilities. You should just start to believe that you are lovable, that you are not a burden to others and certainly cannot make others happy by disappearing.!!

Wished I had met my therapist earlier on in my life, maybe I had done more with it. But it is never too late, even if it will benefit me for just a few years.
You are still young- Please do find someone, de-block yourself with the help of another person. You are a wonderful person, dont live on letting that little girl with her bad memories inside you telling you otherwise.

You can do it!!! Starlink
 
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I came across this thread whilst researching fixed stars & even though old thread i hope to gain a little peace of mind.
venusfriend has listed some of the suicidal fixed points in a female chart.
To start with, my nickname has always been Dee, I am a 37 years old female. I have 1 daughter, Lola.
Ebola was a rather bad taste nickname that seem to stick to her in the first few years due to typical childhood virus's of which i had never had any of and the spread of said virus at the time.
Coincidentally, DENEBOLA the fixed star of 21/19 Virgo is exact same degree as my north node of 21/19 Virgo. Kinda spooky.
My north node squares Mercury and Neptune and my Juno is at 21degrees of Aquarius.
I also have Venus is at 22degrees Scorpio,in 8th house, as is fixed star UNUKALHAI. My Saturn is at 13 degrees Leo, as is fixed star KOCHAB. I have moon & mercury at 13degrees of Capricorn & Aquarius, this then adds to the other two fixed stars at 13deg of Cancer & Aries, being Sirius and Eris.
I am currently going through a pluto transit pluto, starting a seemingly activation of my dark moon lilith.
I currently feel like all is beyond my control and though i don't particularly like society as a whole,due to overall selfish capitalist mentality of the masses, I believe I would never do that to my daughter & leave her without her mum.
Can anyone shed some light on whether this could actually point towards a fatal accident or disease involving my lungs or prediction of early death via accident or disease. is there anyway to deviate the action that all of these aspects point too, the more i read the less I wanna know or even venture into the world.
 

R4VEN

Well-known member
Without your chart to refer to I would not attempt any kind of answer to your questions.

And no responsible person on this site would attempt to predict your death. If they did their post would be removed.

We need a chart to come at it from wherever we are. I need to know where your Chiron is, as IMO it can give quite a clear picture of someone's mental/emotional state.
 
astro_2gw_01_deahne_erin_letts.9803.18464.gif

Im not sure Ive uploaded my chart correctly, im sure ill find out soon enough, thank you for your response, it was a silly question really, my whole chart seems to contradict itself with so many oppositions from a stellium in 9th house to MC - AS & moons node, i understand the planet energies and areas they will present themselves, yet all the aspects seem to contradict considerably leaving me tad confused. Free will i understand, evil chess game i do not comprehend as well :sideways:
 

R4VEN

Well-known member
Thanks for the chart. I have redrawn it using astro.com, but leaving off the fixed stars, etc. For me, they do little more than confuse. I have also drawn your natal chart with accompanying transits, as that can shed light as to what is occurring now.

I have not the time at present to look into your chart too deeply, but the first thing which drew my attention was the close conjunction in Capricorn of your chart ruler (Mars) with your Moon. It is a driving force in your life. You are no doubt a survivor - one who is persistent and hard working. Being in Capricorn, this conjunction can also hide a deep, deep anger, which may be so deeply buried that you are mostly not in touch with it. All depression has anger beneath it. Without knowing anything about your personal story, I am curious about your relationship with your mother, as this may be the source of any buried anger.
It is relevant that transiting Pluto has been conjunct your Mars-Moon throughout much of 2015, returning again in Sep and Oct of 2016. Pluto demands that you dig deep and search for patterns in your life which are running things in your life. It will `dig up' anything which leads you to believing that you are unloved, and it will also force you to search for the reasons you may find yourself on the receiving end of the rage or anger of others.... and if you find that has been happening in your life, then it is your rage which is being reflected to you, rather than that of the other person/people.

Natally, Pluto squares the Moon-Mars conjunct, so you probably have a sense that you are controlled by others, which will feel like some kind of `external force'. The truth is that you were probably controlled while young - perhaps by both parents, but chiefly your mother - and yet without your parental figures in your everyday life currently, you can still feel controlled (= out of control) by an unconscious inner memory. It's more complicated than that, but that's just a quick description of how it works.

One thing which I think is important to acknowledge is that while significant Capricorn personal planets can confer a deep and perhaps melancholy nature, given your Moon-Mars closely trines Saturn (which is the ruler of Capricorn) you have a serious nature - which can dip into depressive states quite easily - but you are also persistent and resilient, and the moods which can feel overwhelming to you are not in charge of you, and nor do they define you.

Something else which is important is the Saturn square, and you are right in the middle of your first Saturn square after the Saturn Return at 29. Now, I used to teach in Women's Studies in TAFE, and I'd find so many women who enrolled in this course at the age of 37 - during their 2nd Saturn square after the Saturn Return. It can be a time of renewal. It is an opportunity for renewal, and it is a time when (women, in particular) begin to look at what they need to do to improve the physical/material and relationship circumstances of their life.

Be aware that transiting Chiron being in Pisces and transiting your 12th house, there will be quite a lot emerging from your own unconscious. Some of it may be real, and a lot of it will be feelings of pain, hurt and victimhood, which you have experienced in the past, but are no longer relevant, not if you want to improve your life, and how you feel.
 
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R4VEN

Well-known member
As I said, what I wrote above, while lengthy, is barely the tip of the iceberg.

Your Neptune-Mercury conj in 9th in Sag is something which can give you a powerful intuitive nature, but you must also be wary of deceiving yourself .. as well as others. Currently the transiting Neptune-Saturn square (which you also have natally, so the transit will affect you deeply) is probably pushing you to look at the reality of your life, rather than the way you wish it was. It is a process, and so must be experienced in its whole gut-wrenching glory. You are being pushed to figuring out what is real, as opposed to what is fantasy/wishful thinking/dreaming/longing.
 
Thanking you kindly for your response, most of my chart analysis has been based around my "Hades Moon" some back ground into that.
I am the youngest of 4 kids all born within 5 yrs, needless to say i was a massive accident & my birth set off a chain of not so positive events, separation not long after & the eventual divorce of my parents when I was 3. I guess in some ways my mother may blame me for these events but i tend to lean more towards, she was scared, alone and had 3 other children to tend to as well, I believe my mother did the best she could in the circumstances she was presented but am also certain that her emotionally fragility at said time, effected me massively throughout childhood and very much right up to now. There really was no room for emotional weakness & I'm pretty sure the hidden messages, baby me picked up, were not so positive! She then met a very strong and obviously slightly insane man :lol: that moved us away from the volatile father, into remote part of north western Australia. He then set about creating a very strict and guided upbringing. He was tough but fair, my mother possibly was very grateful for his intervention and aligned her way of being to his, whether thru love or means of survival. though given all needs in a physical sense my childhood was void of emotional tolerance, I was always chastised as to my way of expressing myself,I"m sure this is at the core of what i like to call my "emotional autism" i seem to be inept at expressing and more often alienate myself to any emotional attachment. I swing from aloof and a seemingly non caring dis attachment from people & events to the total opposite at other times. This total imbalance makes relationships with just about anybody from lovers, to friends and family restrained, lets not even mention employers, as i am literally terrified by attaching my personality to my emotions, Im too empathetic, i get extremely upset and irrational about issues within society that SHOULD NOT exist & feel as though aggressive, violent & the selfish egotistical nature of man, effect me to the very core. I am aware that it is my thoughts that govern my disappointment to my surroundings & society as a general, over time i guess i just dont place thought, speech and emotions together too often, therefore unwittingly developing some serious flaws in my persona that i have no idea how to remove so i can ascend towards a happier more fulfilling latter life. All those years that I envisioned my life from a what i DONT WANT perspective, i have created this current lifepattern, which is lacking in any real love or respect of oneself & ability to ever place my trust in others, I believe i have such a undefined persona of self due to my own worth/loathing issues, negative imprints from every area of my life that I unwittingly have programmed myself to fail, all out of fear of acceptance.
I really do try to put myself out there but i honestly feel that every time i have displayed my true essence of my being to anyone, its been thrown back in my face. I know all the formulas and understand pretty much every step taken to arrive at this destiny of which i aint that happy with, Its the re-writting of the many lies ive told myself to protect my pride or heart that i am really struggling to re-write.
Up until 6 months ago, i worked with my father for 6 years, took me that long to realize i was chasing acceptance by someone whom i dont respect that much. I dont agree with his ideals and he treats me like i am a moron. I ended up having a baby with a man exactly the same and re-lived the same violence & calamity that my mother received from my father. I wish i could be more concerned & focused on what i want from my future than just gaining acceptance from people and a society that i don't even like or really want to be a part of. Monopoly affect - i withdraw and life gets worse, apparently by expressing my true self and accepting it, then using life experiences and wounds to heal others is the soul purpose of this incarnation. To bring to a conclusion, i dont want to help anyone anymore as its all i have ever done and it has lead me nowhere except used and abused. To suggest that we pick our challenges each time and we choose to learn these lessons, with the associations we have them with, just makes me more angry, cause that would be beyond stoopid and i could at least have been clever in the afterlife...surely:sad::andy:
 
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