predicting death

wow. so many veiwpoints on this. i want so badly to read it all through tonight, but i can't.

i did want to clarify why i asked this question. my father died in an auto accident when i was 2. my maternal granfather died just months before in an accident at home. i have grown up wondering and pondering why. in my teens, i started to wonder how my capricorn parts play into this. i always understood that cappy's typically have problems with the father. just a generalization, i'm sure. i felt the double whammy. losing them at practically the same time when i too young to know either one.

when i saw that book, i took an interest in reading it immediately because of the above reasons. but i never got right down to reading it. i knew i would want to at some point though.

i like to study and understand astrology, so i can understand me and those i care about. i never thought of myself ever reading to strangers. adn if i ever did feel that competent, i probably wouldn't offer any of this either. unless i was asked directly. if i dont' think i understand it completely, i wouldn't pretend to. i can def see how dangerous this could be. i mean, it could push a person to end their own life on their own time, or go commit terrible acts because they have been told when their life will be over. (a worse case senario, of course). we all like to be in control. it's part of being a human.

astrology aside, i think there's a part in human nature that doesn't really always want to know the truth, well, not at least without a sugar coated version to make the blow of predicted bad times easier. and then still get hit with hard times no matter how much we try to deny and buy into what we WANT and WANT to believe.

all i know for sure is that i want to keep my mind open to all the things that astrology can teach.

since buying that book, i have lost my mom and my husband. both for medical reasons. i just want to have a look into it, because it surely looks like i have several personal relationship charts that i can use for study now.

i've often wondered if i really would want to know when and how i might die. when we found out about my husbands cancer, we talked about it at length. he was scared and so was i. but he would have never admited it. he used to tease me about my interest in astrology.

hope this doesn't look all jumbled, but i wanted to comment so badly. thanks to everyone who is throwing in their thoughts. i appreciate it.

and deanna, thanks for the link to the pluto progressions. i'll be looking into that one as soon as i get back.

Any and every thought we have affects our future, or maybe that should be creates it. NO future is absolutlely definable, it is fluid. I find astrology works best when you understand them as certain types of energies available to you or another to be utilised as seen fit from the individual perspective.

After the fact you can see how the story plays out in the stars, but there are are infinite number of ways that could have played out.

Our conscious awareness and perception and then our ability to make a choice interacts with the stars in a myriad of ways.

Love Light Flea

Heres what William Lilly has to say on the matter:
If the Querent is likely to live long yea or not.

Many men and women have not the time of their Nativities, or know how to procure them, either their Parents being dead, or no rememberance being left thereof; and yet for divers weighty considerations they are desirous to know by a question of Astrology, whether they shall live long or not?, whether any sicknesse is neer them? , what part of their Life is like to be most happy? together with many other such Queries people doe demand incident to this house.




[SIGNES OF HEALTH.]
In the Question you must consider if the Sign ascending, the Lord thereof, and the Moon be free from misfortune, viz. if the Lord of the Ascendant be free from Combustion of the Sun, from the

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Square, Opposition or Conjunction of the Lord of the 8th, 12th, 6th or 4th House, if he be Direct, in Essentiall Dignity, Swift in Motion, or Angular, especially in the 1st house, (for in this question he is best placed therein) or 10th, or else in the 11th, or 9th House, and in a good aspect with Jupiter or Venus, or the Sun, or in the Termes of Jupiter and Venus, it’s an argument of Health and long life to the Querent, for the Lord of the Ascendant, or Ascendant it selfe unfortunate or Moon in bad houses afflicted, show mischiefe at hand; the aforesaid Significators tree, argue the contrary: for as youconsider the Lord of the Ascendant, so the Ascendant is to be considered, and what aspect is cast unto it, viz. good or evil, and by what Planet or Planets, and of what house or houses they are Lords of.

[SIGNES CONTRARY, VIZ. OF SICKNESSE, DEATH, &C. MISFORTUNE.]
It’s generally received, that if the Lord of the Ascendant be under the Sunbeams, or going to Combustion, which is worse then when he is departing, or the Moon cadent and unfortunated by any of those Planets who have dominion in the 8th or 6th, and either the South Node, Saturn or Mars in the Ascendant or 7th House, peregrine or in detriments, or retrograde, or if there be in the degree ascending, or in that degree of the Signe wherein the Lord of the Ascendant is, or with the Moon, or with that Planet who afflicts any of those; I say, any Fixed Starre of violent influence or nature of the Planet afflicting, or nature of the Lord of the 8th or 6th House, then you may judge the Querent is not long lived, but neer some danger, or shall undergoe some misfortune in one kind or other, according to the quality of the Significator and Signification of that or those houses they are Lords of.



The Time When Any of These ACCIDENTS Shall Happen.

You must see if the Lord of the Ascendant be going to Combustion, or to Opposition or Conjunction of the Lord of the 8th or 4th, how many degrees he is distant from the Sun, or Lord of the 8th or 4th, and in what Signe either of them are in; if the space betwixt them be eight degrees, and in a common Signe, it denotes so many moneths; if in a fixed signe, so many yeers; if in a moveable, so many weeks: this is onely for example, and in

Secondly, having considered the Lord of the Ascendant, see how many degrees the Moon is also distant from any Infortune, or from the Lords of the 6th or 8th, and in what Signe or Signes, their Nature, Quality and House wherein they are posited..

Thirdly, consider if there be an Infortune in the Ascendant, how many degrees the Cusp of the house wants of that degree the unfortunate Planet is in, or if the unfortunating Planet be in the 7th, how many degrees the Ascendant wants of his true Opposition, and compute the time of Death, Sicknesses or Misfortune according to the dimension of degrees in Signes moveable, common, or fixed..

If you find the Lord of the Ascendant afflicted most of all by the Lord of the 6th, and in the 6th, or if the Lord of the Ascendant comes to Combustion in the 6th, you may judge the Querent will have very many and tedious sicknesses, which will scarce leave him till his death; and the more certain your judgment will be, if the Lord of the Ascendant, and the Lord of the 8th and the Moon be all placed in the 6th.

If you find the Lord of the Ascendant, the Signe ascending, or Moon most principally impedited or unfortunated by the Lord of the 8th, or that Planet who afflicts your Significators out of the 8th, then you may judge that the sicknesse with which he is now afflicted, or is shortly to be troubled withall, will end him, and that his death is approaching or that death is threatened..

But if you can find that the Lord of the Ascendant, or Signe of the Ascendant, or the Moon are chiefly afficted by the Lords of some other houses, you shall judge his misfortune from the nature of the house or houses whereof the Planet or Planets afflicting are Lords; and the first original thereof, or discovery, shall be signified from something, Man or Woman, &c. belonging to that house wherein you find the Planet afflicting posited, and thereby you shall judge a misfortune and not death: The Fixed Starres I mentioned, being of the nature of Mars, show sudden distempers of

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body, or Feavers, Murders, Quarrels &c. of the nature of Saturn, quartan Agues, Poverty, casuall hurts by fals &c..., of the nature of Mercury, they declare Consumptions,Madness, cozenage by false Evidence or Writings: of the nature of the Moon, Tumults, Commotions, Wind-chollick, danger by Water, &c, of the nature of the Sun, envy of Magistrates, hurt in the Eyes, &c. of the nature of Jupiter, oppression by domineering Priests, or by some Gentleman: of the nature of Venus, then prejudice by some Woman, the Pox, or Cards, Dice and Wantonnesse.

[CAUTION.]
You must carefully avoid pronouncing Death rashly, and upon one single testimony, you must observe, though the Lord of the Ascendant be going to Combustion, whether either Jupiter or Venus cast not some Sextile or Trine to the Lord of the Ascendant, ere he come to perfect Combustion, or any other infortune, for that is an argument that either Medicine or Strength of Nature will contradict that malignant influence, or take off part of that misfortune; but when you find two or more of the rules asforesaid concurring to death, you may be more bold in your Judgement; yet concerning the absolute time of death of any party, I have found it best to be wary, and have as much as I could, refrained this manner of judgement; onely this much by the Question may be knowne, that if you find the Significators, as aforesaid, afflicted, you may judge the man or party inquiring to be no long lived man, or subject to many miseries and calamities, and this I know by many verified examples; the knowledge hereof is of excellent use for such as would purchase any Lease or Office, or thing for Life or Lives, &c. or for those who would carefully in a naturall way prevent those casualties their natures or inclinations would run them into.


Hope that will be of asistance.
Lillyjgc

I got two astrology books filled with charts that show people who have died in tragic accidents (i.e., hit by train, car accident, electrocution, death by fall, etc.) and charts of people who survived tragic accidents.

I do sell them. I only have three left of each one. They are good ones. Ask me and I will tell you.

I had two girlfriends die several months apart and they knew each other. One was murdered and the other died"mysteriously"in another country. I also had two male friends die one month apart 4 years ago, both from health complications. I looked at my chart when my one girlfriend was killed and Mars was opposing Venus and Saturn conjunct Venus. Oddly enough, Jupiter was conjunct Mars tightly sextiling Jupiter(6th/8th) and sextile Venus..I am still trying to figure out the good in that aspect. I have that coming up again here soon, but it should be a positive aspect so I dont know why it was part of that horrific event( she was foreign, so maybe that's where Jupiter comes in??) When my two male friends passed away I had Saturn conjunct my moon/ 12th and Mars conjunct midpoint and T. Jupiter conjunct T.venus-again, a Venus/Jupiter tie and T. Neptune conjunct 7th cusp .There was a trine to chiron in each of these cases (5th/9th) When my dog passed away Jupiter was conjunct Saturn, Mars conjunct vertex and square Venus , Pluto conjunct Neptune and Chiron trine Chiron.

Here is the horary chart I cast for a man ,who from his hospital bed rang me to ask *Am I going to die*
I'm posting it so anyone who wants to take a look can do so...I know the result.
Cheers LJGC

Lilly, if the chart says that someone is going to die how do you tell the person this?? Do you feel awkward when someone requests a chart asking this question?

Hi,
The person asked me. (I certainly wouldnt volunteer such information unless asked.) Of course I felt *awkward* and pressured too-to get the chart right.Not an occasion one can afford to make a mistake. I was aware that William Lilly had devised a set of rules to judge such a chart so I didnt consider it to be unethical to delineate the chart.
The person was very grateful and yes, he died.

lillyjgc said:

Hi,
The person asked me. (I certainly wouldnt volunteer such information unless asked.) Of course I felt *awkward* and pressured too-to get the chart right.Not an occasion one can afford to make a mistake. I was aware that William Lilly had devised a set of rules to judge such a chart so I didnt consider it to be unethical to delineate the chart.
The person was very grateful and yes, he died.

Click to expand...

ugh, sorry to hear that

I decided to ask a few of the MD's that I work with if they could predict the death of someone, even a loved one, would they do it?
They all said no. When asked why, they said they feel that there is a time when we all die and to be told something like that the a person given a set time from a professional will trust that what that professional says to be true. Thus they can end up living a life that is geared towards their mortality. Now I say professional as astrologers are professionals in their own right. I think that most people, as discussed before would not see that they can change their fate and avoid things that can lead to their death, or if they did avoid that "thing" that could lead to an early death, they would feel like it can still happen. Say a person possibly dying in a car accident on the fifth of february. Do you think that person every time they got into a car would not think about the possiblity of dying, or nevermind the thinking "man I almost died like this." To predict ones death, then to say that we can change fate is crazy! What if fate was a heart attack, do you think we can undo years of cigarette smoking, eating bad diets and then avoid a heart attack. What about cancer, "oh lets somehow avoid breast cancer." How?

There was a lad who came to me once, many moons ago. Apparently his esoteric astrologer-cum-guru had told him not only that he would commit suicide, but told him that he would do so by a certain date.

He was playing it cool, but it did seem to me that he had been pretty spooked by that prediction. I did emphasise to him that in no circumstances could this be an ethical thing for anyone to do.

Decumbiture charts are ethical, folks. I can understand why an *MD* would not predict death -(even though every time they give one a *prognosis* they are doing the same thing, and i speak from experience here)...But when a person who is gravely ill wants to know the truth so he can make his peace before he goes, asks me then I will be honest.As I was.
Cheers Lillyjgc

I wanted to share the MD story as I find astrologers and MD's as both professionals, I do see that MD's do say "my friend you have 6 months" and then there are others that would not even go there. So you have your astrologers that tell and those that dont.
What I would like to know is that in some creed of the astrologer is this ethical?
Veracity VS Beneficence?
Veracity- to tell the truth
Beneficence- to be of benefit
Would it be of benefit to that person to know?

I find the following fitting to anyone in the field of helping one both spritually and medically....
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Not telling the truth in the doctor-patient relationship requires special attention because patients today, more than ever, experience serious harm if they are lied to. Not only is patient autonomy undermined but patients who are not told the truth about an intervention experience a loss of that all important trust which is required for healing. Honesty matters to patients. They need it because they are ill, vulnerable, and burdened with pressing questions which require truthful answers. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Honesty also matters to the doctor and other medical professionals. The loss of reputation for honesty in medical practice means the end of medicine as a profession. Important as it is for patients and doctors, however, honesty has been neither a major concern in medical ethics nor an important value for doctors. It may be an exaggeration to say that honesty is neither taught in medical school nor valued in medical culture, but it is not too much of an exaggeration. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Is concern for honesty and truth telling as absent or as threatened in other professions? Is honesty a respected virtue among lawyers? The very question will appear ridiculous to most people. Is truth any more respected by brokers, politicians, policemen? All these so called professionals are publicly committed to do what is best for others and yet the others frequently are not told the truth. Could doctors actually have fallen in with lawyers and brokers and politicians in undermining the foundations of what we have known for centuries as the fiduciary role in a true professional? If so, the loss to medicine is tragic because there is no comparison between the consequences of lying in the doctor-patient relationship and the lying that goes on elsewhere. Besides harming a patient's autonomy, patients themselves are harmed, and so are the doctors, the medical profession, and the whole society which depends on humane and trustworthy medicine. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Inattention to truth or violations of honesty by medical personnel is serious business. There is a lot at stake as well for nurses, researchers and other health professionals. The truth issue is worth thinking about by all health-care professionals. In some cases the harm from not telling the truth may be less. Some degree of dishonesty may even be excusable sometimes in order to avoid more serious patient harm. If there are reasons for not telling the truth, what are they? When could incomplete disclosure be justified and under what circumstances? What exceptions, if any, exist to the rule against lying? What kind of arguments support the answers to these questions? These are the issues we will be trying to sort out.[/FONT]
I guess this is something that we all need to answer within ourselves in order to give light to these tough ethical questions...

I have never has exprience of dealing with somone in hospital, so have only ben able to go by my own expereinces where death has come up. I mentioned the client who wanted me to tell him when his father would die and the one where suicide had been predicted. In these case, the question of ethics is different from the one where a patient might know he or she is riddled with cancer for example, but the medics and family cannot accept it. Very different scenarios.

Nexus-
Can you please tell me what ethical issues surround an astrologer telling someone about their death?
I have been asking through my posts, maybe not outright, but what is the ethical issue in your opinion? I am only asking to get a better idea.
However I do believe that these medical ethical issues are the same as ones you see...does not one riddled with cancer come to see an astrologer? One who knows vs one who does not know, I am sure both appear to an astrologer asking for help. Or one who knows a loved one is dying even?
Is it ethical either way?

If anyone would like to predict how i will die, i would appreciate it.......I have some plans to visit quite a violent country in the future and would like to know.....I dont have any inkling to know when, but definitely how.........
Please pm me if you are interested......that way nobody else will need to know

LG,

I give some Aphorisms on my site concerning analyzing death in a chart (primarily about the hows). Your Solar Return, Directions & Transits should also be taken into consideration during the stay in that country. There are a few other techniques not listed on my site, which I may or may not write about I am not sure yet as its a little more difficult.

Aphorisms of Death :

http://www.antiquus-astrology.com/Chap5-2.html
http://www.antiquus-astrology.com/Chap5-3.html

Analyzing prediction charts:

http://www.antiquus-astrology.com/Chap8.html

I will have a look at your sites as soon as my boy goes to bed.....cant concentrate now......
problem is, i dont know yet when i am going.......the aphorisms of death may not need the time of going?......would you be ok with me pm-ing you if have any troubles?

LG,

The Aphorisms are for Nativities and Prediction charts (although they are written for predictive use they work just as well for Nativities), you will not need to know the time. You can usually find the date out by using the death aphorisms on predictive charts if you desire to know that. You are welcome to PM me with any problems you are having, although if you feel others can learn from it, post is here so others can pick some things up as well.

OK.........for those of you who have a problem with this.....sorry......I would like to know how i will die....(just dont want to know when, just yet)

after reading astro teachers links..........I am looking for the significators of death

I have no planets in the 7th or 8th
saturn is the lord of the asc
the lord of the 8th is the sun
Part of death is in virgo (which happens to be the 8th house funnily enough) so its lord is merc.........
(part of death calculator here:http://www.noendpress.com/pvachier/arabicparts/index.php)

ok the 8th sign from the place of the sun and his lord i guess is leo and therefore the sun (my sun is in the 12th in cap)
same goes for the 8th place of the moon and his lord.....leo...the sun...

3 things pointing to the Sun as the significator so far

here is where i start getting confused a tad......
Of the place of the first Lord of the triplicity of the forth angle.....is this the mc? (which happens to be libra.....so i guess the triplicity planet is saturn for the day?......could be miles of the mark here but am giving it a go)
of the place of the planet which hath the dignity of term to the degree of the seventh house? this one has me stumped


ok astro teacher....how am i going so far?


here is my chart aswell