PisceanPallas
Account Closed
Beautiful poem...I love it
Sylvia Plath, truly Plutonic... Sun in Scorpio in the 8th house:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Plath,_Sylvia
Inviting thoughts on Pluto
- Thread starter miquar
- Start date
Beautiful poem...I love it
Sylvia Plath, truly Plutonic... Sun in Scorpio in the 8th house:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Plath,_Sylvia
maemae,
not to discount anything you say , but having been involved with astrology for many years, i am familiar with how the differences between the 2 planets are defined astrologically.. perhaps it was just a coincidence both my parents died with saturn close to the degree of their sun so many years ago.. i choose to view it somewhat differently.. stories of death and transformation run thru much of the mystical literature available to us throughout history.. whether we can put all this at the feet of pluto is an ongoing question for me, but perhaps not for others here..
miquar,
what motivated me to mention the duality was coming out of the example you gave.. i put it in my own words and for that, i will have to live with the fact they can be dissected any number of ways.. the story i am going to again quote below needs to be understood by each of us in our own way... you mentioned pluto and all the symbolic connections to pluto, but i am not sure what the personal meaning is for you at this point in your life.. i was speaking more personally on how i viewed it.. if it came across as not being valid for whatever reason - it is what it is and based on how i read the story.
>>a lion or a wolf is put in sealed alembic, with its paws cut off, and a fire is lit beneath it. The animal rages and suffers until it is burnt to ash, and the alchemist must watch the whole time, for turning away is a symbol of withdrawing conscious attention of the process and so it doesn't fulfil its purpose.<<
i would be inclined to say it is much easier to categorize stories like this in some astrological context and much more difficult to live thru them in a real sense.. i have no idea what this story meant to you other then that it connects with your ideas of pluto, which is good enough i suppose..
not to discount anything you say , but having been involved with astrology for many years, i am familiar with how the differences between the 2 planets are defined astrologically.. perhaps it was just a coincidence both my parents died with saturn close to the degree of their sun so many years ago.. i choose to view it somewhat differently.. stories of death and transformation run thru much of the mystical literature available to us throughout history.. whether we can put all this at the feet of pluto is an ongoing question for me, but perhaps not for others here..
miquar,
what motivated me to mention the duality was coming out of the example you gave.. i put it in my own words and for that, i will have to live with the fact they can be dissected any number of ways.. the story i am going to again quote below needs to be understood by each of us in our own way... you mentioned pluto and all the symbolic connections to pluto, but i am not sure what the personal meaning is for you at this point in your life.. i was speaking more personally on how i viewed it.. if it came across as not being valid for whatever reason - it is what it is and based on how i read the story.
>>a lion or a wolf is put in sealed alembic, with its paws cut off, and a fire is lit beneath it. The animal rages and suffers until it is burnt to ash, and the alchemist must watch the whole time, for turning away is a symbol of withdrawing conscious attention of the process and so it doesn't fulfil its purpose.<<
i would be inclined to say it is much easier to categorize stories like this in some astrological context and much more difficult to live thru them in a real sense.. i have no idea what this story meant to you other then that it connects with your ideas of pluto, which is good enough i suppose..
waybread
Well-known member
Transforming Self, thanks your your kind words-- they made my day!
A favourite saying is that we gain in wisdom through experience, and we gain experience through making mistakes.
A Pluto transit can definitely accelerate this process. It gets us out of the box with its celophane wrapper, and scuffs us up by real life. It may be painful, but once we have been through a hard Pluto transit, I don't think we would ever want to return to our pre-transit naive state.
A favourite saying is that we gain in wisdom through experience, and we gain experience through making mistakes.
A Pluto transit can definitely accelerate this process. It gets us out of the box with its celophane wrapper, and scuffs us up by real life. It may be painful, but once we have been through a hard Pluto transit, I don't think we would ever want to return to our pre-transit naive state.
TransformingSelf
Well-known member
Thank you so much, Waybread, for your wonderfully encouraging words. You've motivated me to start another workweek.
Whenever the past starts to look better than the present, in this Pluto square, I will remember your advice that the challenges were worth it for the future.
Whenever the past starts to look better than the present, in this Pluto square, I will remember your advice that the challenges were worth it for the future.
MaeMae
Banned
i have no pluto saturn contacts.
maybe i see things with different angle.
it's always perspective.
though i don't see saturn grieving losses after the fact. saturn deals with the reality at hand.
pluto deals with the past.
maybe we've read different books and have known different people in the past 30 years, our filters, usually neptune, always color our perspectives.
maybe i see things with different angle.
it's always perspective.
though i don't see saturn grieving losses after the fact. saturn deals with the reality at hand.
pluto deals with the past.
maybe we've read different books and have known different people in the past 30 years, our filters, usually neptune, always color our perspectives.
MaeMae
Banned
i am a long time Jackson Browne lover, TS ~
he's from Anaheim, split after high school to new york where he hooked up with nico (velvet underground days), friends died of suicide, ever reminding him of mortality ~ "adam", wife, james honeyman scott from pretenders.
warren zevon of hard living.
no kidding ~ JB's original "take it easy" just came on.
"don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy"
kind of on topic?
check out my hades moon songs thread.
jackson browne is the unfortunate libra with the pluto~saturn archetypal curse.
forced to deal with loss and still being compelled to perform, cap moon i'm remembering?
if i sound obsessed, i am.
obsessed with anybody who faces death ~ their's or mine (pluto). obsessed with capricorn/saturn's fight to live despite the odds.
JB is someone who touched that nerve.
he's from Anaheim, split after high school to new york where he hooked up with nico (velvet underground days), friends died of suicide, ever reminding him of mortality ~ "adam", wife, james honeyman scott from pretenders.
warren zevon of hard living.
no kidding ~ JB's original "take it easy" just came on.
"don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy"
kind of on topic?
check out my hades moon songs thread.
jackson browne is the unfortunate libra with the pluto~saturn archetypal curse.
forced to deal with loss and still being compelled to perform, cap moon i'm remembering?
if i sound obsessed, i am.
obsessed with anybody who faces death ~ their's or mine (pluto). obsessed with capricorn/saturn's fight to live despite the odds.
JB is someone who touched that nerve.
This is the case with myself, life has managed to center around personal transformation, there seems to be an intimacy with death, it's lived and breathed in a metaphorical sense.. been reborn into each moment, and through this; liberation of absolute proportions.
I have:
Pluto Trine Sun
Pluto Sqaure Venus
Pluto Sqaure Mars
I've found much wisdom with Eckhart Tolle and also Adyashanti; they have both been very influential in helping me widen my awareness of my self.
I just wanted to share a poem that i deeply relate too, and i feel is well suited for the topic of this thread.
------
Desolate winds howl in icy winter night.
The pilgrim stops in his endless wanderings,
And lends his own voice to the wind...
------
- Kiara Windrider
[deleted quote over 100 words - Moderator from: http://www.onenessmovementflorida.org/DarkNightOfTheSoul.htm ]
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miquar
Well-known member
I've found the discussion of Saturn and Pluto which has emerged between Sandstone and MaeMae intriguing - largely because I've always found it difficult to draw a sharp distinction between these planets. I have Pluto on the IC ruling my Moon in Scorpio, and Saturn exactly sesquiquadrate my Sun/Moon midpoint.
(If you allow two degrees and twenty minutes I have a sesquiquadrate between them, and they both aspect my Mercury in Aquarius (Saturn) in the 8th (Pluto) well within orb. There are other things like Venus in Capricorn exactly septile Pluto and trine Saturn, and Sun in Aquarius in the 8th exactly binovile Saturn and quincunx Pluto. Don't know if these aspects are relevant to this though).
I have always associated both of these planets with death, and they are both personified in various mythologies as 'lord of the dead'. What MaeMae says about Saturn only being interested in what is right in front of it is surely relevant. If Saturn symbolises the self-circumscribing nature of individual consciousness, then we can only experience the planets beyond Saturn through Saturn's filter, unless we are having some kind of break-down or superconscious experience.
They both clearly share an urge towards self-determination which is quite unlike the needs for autonomy of other planets like Sun, Mars, Uranus.
If Saturn is the boundary where personal meets collective, and Pluto is the collective survival instinct which by necessity must destroy much of that which individuals have made of themselves and the world (Saturn), then the dynamic between Saturn and Pluto could be seen as backbone of evolution on every level of existence.
When Chronos (Saturn) was overthrown by Zeus and Hades and the gang, and Chronos was banished to Tartaros beneath the ground, Hades (Pluto) also chose to live beneath the ground. That was (pretty much) the last anyone ever saw of either of them. Perhaps this in some way symbolises that in all manifest things, Saturn and Pluto are always present in a way that the other archetypes aren't. There could be no transformation with out form, and a form can only be defined by what else it was, might have been, or might become.
I'm not sure exactly where I'm going with this, so I'll leave it there for now.
I also thought this Dane Rudhyar quote worth sharing:
"In its highest form [Pluto] refers to the greatest contribution an individual person can make to his society or to humanity in general. But before he can make such an effectual and significant contribution, the individual must pass through experiences of at least relative psychological denudation and soul emptiness."
From THE PLANETARY ALPHABET http://www.khaldea.com/rudhyar/astroarticles/planetaryalphabet.php
(If you allow two degrees and twenty minutes I have a sesquiquadrate between them, and they both aspect my Mercury in Aquarius (Saturn) in the 8th (Pluto) well within orb. There are other things like Venus in Capricorn exactly septile Pluto and trine Saturn, and Sun in Aquarius in the 8th exactly binovile Saturn and quincunx Pluto. Don't know if these aspects are relevant to this though).
I have always associated both of these planets with death, and they are both personified in various mythologies as 'lord of the dead'. What MaeMae says about Saturn only being interested in what is right in front of it is surely relevant. If Saturn symbolises the self-circumscribing nature of individual consciousness, then we can only experience the planets beyond Saturn through Saturn's filter, unless we are having some kind of break-down or superconscious experience.
They both clearly share an urge towards self-determination which is quite unlike the needs for autonomy of other planets like Sun, Mars, Uranus.
If Saturn is the boundary where personal meets collective, and Pluto is the collective survival instinct which by necessity must destroy much of that which individuals have made of themselves and the world (Saturn), then the dynamic between Saturn and Pluto could be seen as backbone of evolution on every level of existence.
When Chronos (Saturn) was overthrown by Zeus and Hades and the gang, and Chronos was banished to Tartaros beneath the ground, Hades (Pluto) also chose to live beneath the ground. That was (pretty much) the last anyone ever saw of either of them. Perhaps this in some way symbolises that in all manifest things, Saturn and Pluto are always present in a way that the other archetypes aren't. There could be no transformation with out form, and a form can only be defined by what else it was, might have been, or might become.
I'm not sure exactly where I'm going with this, so I'll leave it there for now.
I also thought this Dane Rudhyar quote worth sharing:
"In its highest form [Pluto] refers to the greatest contribution an individual person can make to his society or to humanity in general. But before he can make such an effectual and significant contribution, the individual must pass through experiences of at least relative psychological denudation and soul emptiness."
From THE PLANETARY ALPHABET http://www.khaldea.com/rudhyar/astroarticles/planetaryalphabet.php
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maemae and miquar,
thanks for sharing your thoughts on pluto, and as a result of the ongoing exchange - saturn too..
i wonder what dane rudhyar would have to say if he found out eris bumped pluto from planetary status, or what he would say about eris?
my thinking is that up until the discovery of pluto, much of the imagery would have to have been given to saturn, and perhaps some astrologers may have wanted to give it to uranus or neptune as well..
what happens when eris comes along? what part of the lexicon of pluto does it displace? it is a reason to think back to sorting out what saturn represents in the chart more fully.
i don't agree saturn is only interested in what is right in front of us or only practical realities, but i do think saturn emphasizes them as the view is wider. i like the mythology of janus the 2 headed goddess that looks forward and back and what the month of january - saturns month - is named after.. to me saturn looks back and looks forward.. it is more forward oriented, but much of it is due the wider perspective it has.. if you are going to give old age and wisdom to saturn, you can't short change it by removing some of the classic ideas that also go with these traits..
pluto may represent some or much of what we've been encouraged to consider - transformation, regeneration, and life changing experiences.. the psychological approach to astrology is relatively new, as is the use of pluto in astrology charts... i continue to consider how the 2 overlap in these same areas based on greater experience and understanding that i see is based on the role of saturn to a great extent. perhaps i am more philosophical about saturns role given the fact i have it in sagitarrius, or that i have a pronounced jupiter in some respects.. it is all relative and we can only base our experience on our experiences which are always unique to us..
i certainly wouldn't want to end the imaginative process that a more dry and strictly defined meaning to these planets would encourage.. i see the inclusion of eris as forcing others who might be so inclined to disallow them to do this.. we have no easy answers to the meaning of the planets.. we have our own experiences and what others tell us of theres but we are left to ponder more possibilities if we keep an open mind to discovering other possibilities for these symbols thru our direct experience of them via transit, directions and etc..
i think cancer has some sort of connection to pluto as well.. i am mostly thinking pluto in hard aspect that is unable to let go of the lower emotions that tend to breed health problems like cancer.. i can say this is true for me with the transit of saturn over my pluto, which interestingly brings these planets together in a personal story that i am sharing.. it also coincided with chiron return, so i do think chiron has a connection to health and the health symbol for it is a good one.. we all have a particular cross to bear which is how i see saturn in a chart..
on this it is interesting to consider the nature of the symbols for the planets.. the cross appears in a number of the symbols for the planets, including the symbol for saturn as well as pluto.. with saturn the crescent is held down by the cross.. with pluto the crescent is above the cross with a circle inside.. plutos symbol seems to suggest unlimited possibilities for good or bad given how the crescent which i associate with the more personal - moon ) is placed above the cross.. the outers all seem to suggest unlimited possibilities to me, but saturn is a special planet in holding the crescent - or - our personal needs - below the position of our present reality. i don't think it means saturn is mean, short sighted, only focused on the present and all of that.. i think it is pigeon-holed into those types of roles for those who only see saturn as a bummer.. i think it is really the light on the path that is talked about in the alchemy books and for it to be pushed aside by pluto is not something i can go along with so easily!!! i would like to give pluto it's due as well, but i am not sure i want to give it everything while giving a cold shoulder to saturn here..
thoughts?
thanks for sharing your thoughts on pluto, and as a result of the ongoing exchange - saturn too..
i wonder what dane rudhyar would have to say if he found out eris bumped pluto from planetary status, or what he would say about eris?
my thinking is that up until the discovery of pluto, much of the imagery would have to have been given to saturn, and perhaps some astrologers may have wanted to give it to uranus or neptune as well..
what happens when eris comes along? what part of the lexicon of pluto does it displace? it is a reason to think back to sorting out what saturn represents in the chart more fully.
i don't agree saturn is only interested in what is right in front of us or only practical realities, but i do think saturn emphasizes them as the view is wider. i like the mythology of janus the 2 headed goddess that looks forward and back and what the month of january - saturns month - is named after.. to me saturn looks back and looks forward.. it is more forward oriented, but much of it is due the wider perspective it has.. if you are going to give old age and wisdom to saturn, you can't short change it by removing some of the classic ideas that also go with these traits..
pluto may represent some or much of what we've been encouraged to consider - transformation, regeneration, and life changing experiences.. the psychological approach to astrology is relatively new, as is the use of pluto in astrology charts... i continue to consider how the 2 overlap in these same areas based on greater experience and understanding that i see is based on the role of saturn to a great extent. perhaps i am more philosophical about saturns role given the fact i have it in sagitarrius, or that i have a pronounced jupiter in some respects.. it is all relative and we can only base our experience on our experiences which are always unique to us..
i certainly wouldn't want to end the imaginative process that a more dry and strictly defined meaning to these planets would encourage.. i see the inclusion of eris as forcing others who might be so inclined to disallow them to do this.. we have no easy answers to the meaning of the planets.. we have our own experiences and what others tell us of theres but we are left to ponder more possibilities if we keep an open mind to discovering other possibilities for these symbols thru our direct experience of them via transit, directions and etc..
i think cancer has some sort of connection to pluto as well.. i am mostly thinking pluto in hard aspect that is unable to let go of the lower emotions that tend to breed health problems like cancer.. i can say this is true for me with the transit of saturn over my pluto, which interestingly brings these planets together in a personal story that i am sharing.. it also coincided with chiron return, so i do think chiron has a connection to health and the health symbol for it is a good one.. we all have a particular cross to bear which is how i see saturn in a chart..
on this it is interesting to consider the nature of the symbols for the planets.. the cross appears in a number of the symbols for the planets, including the symbol for saturn as well as pluto.. with saturn the crescent is held down by the cross.. with pluto the crescent is above the cross with a circle inside.. plutos symbol seems to suggest unlimited possibilities for good or bad given how the crescent which i associate with the more personal - moon ) is placed above the cross.. the outers all seem to suggest unlimited possibilities to me, but saturn is a special planet in holding the crescent - or - our personal needs - below the position of our present reality. i don't think it means saturn is mean, short sighted, only focused on the present and all of that.. i think it is pigeon-holed into those types of roles for those who only see saturn as a bummer.. i think it is really the light on the path that is talked about in the alchemy books and for it to be pushed aside by pluto is not something i can go along with so easily!!! i would like to give pluto it's due as well, but i am not sure i want to give it everything while giving a cold shoulder to saturn here..
thoughts?
waybread
Well-known member
Thank you, Transforming Self!
..... [personal information deleted, on second thought.]
The thing about Pluto opposite sun or square sun aspects (natally or by transit), is that the sun is the "me" planet. Unless you are very Plutonian yourself and comfortable in its underworld with a miner's helmet; Pluto is a hard energy for most of us to handle. If we look at Pluto's negative side, we don't want to be Plutonian ruthless bullies, underworld characters, or covert operators. Yet Pluto's good side is difficult for many of us to understand.
So in proper Jungian style, we calve off Pluto as "not me" and it becomes shadow material. The parts of Pluto we disown as "not me" we paste on somebody else. Then we wonder why we seem to attract ruthless bullies into our lives. The reason is because we haven't 'fessed up to owning our own Plutonian nature, including the times we may have bullied someone else.
The sooner we can own up to having our own dark side, our inner Darth Vader, the sooner we can experience Pluto's transformational potential. This is like the new crocus pushing out of winter's dead ground. Then our Plutonian experiences seem necessary to our development, even if distinctly horrible. No cold harsh winter, no new crocuses.
Just to recap:
1. Pluto's nature is cathartic. Let up any repressed memories. Yes, that one-- the one that still hurts too much. Let it up so you can let it go.
2. Pluto deals with the underworld: a good time to take long walks at night (with the dog!); clean out or remodel the basement, or garden so that you can turn over the soil and get your hands in the dirt.
3. Pluto deals metaphorically with death and dying. Go ahead and deliberately kill off any relationships that "died" long ago, the hopes that were merely childish fantasies, the belongings you haven't used and won't use. Jettison any beliefs you suspected were untrue all along.
4. Pluto deals with cosmic recycling. Out of death comes life. Take those old clothes to the thrift store so someone else can use them. Closing the door on Mr. Wrong creates some space for Mr. Right to show up. Outgrowing your naivete creates space for a little wisdom to creep in.
Super Plutonian poetry, everyone!
..... [personal information deleted, on second thought.]
The thing about Pluto opposite sun or square sun aspects (natally or by transit), is that the sun is the "me" planet. Unless you are very Plutonian yourself and comfortable in its underworld with a miner's helmet; Pluto is a hard energy for most of us to handle. If we look at Pluto's negative side, we don't want to be Plutonian ruthless bullies, underworld characters, or covert operators. Yet Pluto's good side is difficult for many of us to understand.
So in proper Jungian style, we calve off Pluto as "not me" and it becomes shadow material. The parts of Pluto we disown as "not me" we paste on somebody else. Then we wonder why we seem to attract ruthless bullies into our lives. The reason is because we haven't 'fessed up to owning our own Plutonian nature, including the times we may have bullied someone else.
The sooner we can own up to having our own dark side, our inner Darth Vader, the sooner we can experience Pluto's transformational potential. This is like the new crocus pushing out of winter's dead ground. Then our Plutonian experiences seem necessary to our development, even if distinctly horrible. No cold harsh winter, no new crocuses.
Just to recap:
1. Pluto's nature is cathartic. Let up any repressed memories. Yes, that one-- the one that still hurts too much. Let it up so you can let it go.
2. Pluto deals with the underworld: a good time to take long walks at night (with the dog!); clean out or remodel the basement, or garden so that you can turn over the soil and get your hands in the dirt.
3. Pluto deals metaphorically with death and dying. Go ahead and deliberately kill off any relationships that "died" long ago, the hopes that were merely childish fantasies, the belongings you haven't used and won't use. Jettison any beliefs you suspected were untrue all along.
4. Pluto deals with cosmic recycling. Out of death comes life. Take those old clothes to the thrift store so someone else can use them. Closing the door on Mr. Wrong creates some space for Mr. Right to show up. Outgrowing your naivete creates space for a little wisdom to creep in.
Super Plutonian poetry, everyone!
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miquar
Well-known member
I completely agree with this. Pluto may be the collective archetype which most effectively sweeps away the old and outgrown, but Saturn is surely the most potent symbol of free will in the birth chart. It was only when Satan (Saturn) persuaded Adam and Eve to taste the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that they acquired free will. Before that they were too fused with God to think for themselves. Janus, the dweller on the threshold, gives us a sense of separateness without which we couldn't learn and grow. But in being separate we then have to choose for ourselves to learn and grow.
waybread
Well-known member
I see both similarities and differences in Saturn's and Pluto's behaviour.
Similarities, in my view: Both planets can signify hardships. Both can indicate ruthless people or events, seemingly are out to harm you; and there is a kind of inevitability about their work. Even if you "win" the victory may be hollow. For you Trekkies (TNG) out there, these planets say, "We are Borg. Resistence is futile."
Differences, in my view: while Saturn as Dr. No can indicate limits, disappointments, and show how and where we feel inadequate, it is actually a good teacher. His lessons don't sound like a whole heap of fun, but they are sooooo valuable: patience, persistence, hard work, resourcefulness, planning, saving, learning to get by on very little. Saturn is all about material reality-as-given. Sure, Dane Rudhyar can get us jacked-up and glazed over. But Saturn as Dr. Reality-check is about ground-truthing. Somebody has to pay for Mr. Mystic's light bill and toothpaste.
Saturn also tends to reward his pupils later in life. Save now, and you have money in the bank later.
Consequently, when one is in the throes of a horrid Pluto transit, Saturn gets us through by reminding us to put one foot in front of the other foot. The Old Man toughens us up, and makes us realize, however grimly, that we can get through those days when Pluto shows you that everything you thought was real was just a cheap charade. This is because of Saturn's aforesaid lessons of perseverance and getting by on very little.
Pluto says, "The way out is the way through. Oh, and BTW, everything you worked for and thought mattered is meaningless. The universe is laughing at you."
Saturn says, "Anything that doesn't kill you makes you stronger. And here's how."
Similarities, in my view: Both planets can signify hardships. Both can indicate ruthless people or events, seemingly are out to harm you; and there is a kind of inevitability about their work. Even if you "win" the victory may be hollow. For you Trekkies (TNG) out there, these planets say, "We are Borg. Resistence is futile."
Differences, in my view: while Saturn as Dr. No can indicate limits, disappointments, and show how and where we feel inadequate, it is actually a good teacher. His lessons don't sound like a whole heap of fun, but they are sooooo valuable: patience, persistence, hard work, resourcefulness, planning, saving, learning to get by on very little. Saturn is all about material reality-as-given. Sure, Dane Rudhyar can get us jacked-up and glazed over. But Saturn as Dr. Reality-check is about ground-truthing. Somebody has to pay for Mr. Mystic's light bill and toothpaste.
Saturn also tends to reward his pupils later in life. Save now, and you have money in the bank later.
Consequently, when one is in the throes of a horrid Pluto transit, Saturn gets us through by reminding us to put one foot in front of the other foot. The Old Man toughens us up, and makes us realize, however grimly, that we can get through those days when Pluto shows you that everything you thought was real was just a cheap charade. This is because of Saturn's aforesaid lessons of perseverance and getting by on very little.
Pluto says, "The way out is the way through. Oh, and BTW, everything you worked for and thought mattered is meaningless. The universe is laughing at you."
Saturn says, "Anything that doesn't kill you makes you stronger. And here's how."
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Neptune Rising
Well-known member
Interesting topic, poingnantly acute with my Pluto square Pluto. Lots of natal Pluto in my chart with Pluto at MC/9th house trine Venus/Mercury, square 7th Saturn.
Pluto is raw, I agree with other statements in this thread in that repsect. No frivolities here and no 'running away'. It reminds me of that really ugly character in Mulholland drive that appears from behind the wall in the car park at the back of the American diner. There's a picture of it at number 8 on this link. The cold hard truth blossoms with full power into the awareness, this truth that was and is part of you/me, but got repressed or denied.
Lol, I do like a glass of red wine occasionally, but since this Pluto square Pluto (plus Pluto/Moon two way progressions), I haven't fancied any alchohol. Somehow I know I just have to face this stone cold sober, facing whatever scary, unwanted or denied images of myself come up into my awareness. However, I'm also going through prog Moon conj natal Saturn, and tr Saturn square Sun, which adds a heavy dose of reality and sobriety!
Pluto is raw, I agree with other statements in this thread in that repsect. No frivolities here and no 'running away'. It reminds me of that really ugly character in Mulholland drive that appears from behind the wall in the car park at the back of the American diner. There's a picture of it at number 8 on this link. The cold hard truth blossoms with full power into the awareness, this truth that was and is part of you/me, but got repressed or denied.
Lol, I do like a glass of red wine occasionally, but since this Pluto square Pluto (plus Pluto/Moon two way progressions), I haven't fancied any alchohol. Somehow I know I just have to face this stone cold sober, facing whatever scary, unwanted or denied images of myself come up into my awareness. However, I'm also going through prog Moon conj natal Saturn, and tr Saturn square Sun, which adds a heavy dose of reality and sobriety!
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miquar
Well-known member
Your comment about alcohol reminds me of a recent time when my need to eat sweet foods fell away very naturally for a number of weeks and then returned again. After this happened I looked at the transits and found that when I didn't feel a need for sweet foods there was lots of Pluto stuff going on, like transiting Pluto=Sun/MC - quite a few transits in all. And when Saturn swept arrived at 12 Libra and started aspecting my Venus, Mars, Saturn and Mercury I started eating sweet food again. I was surprised to see it this way round as I'd always put my eating habits down to angular Pluto (IC) and chart ruling Moon in Scorpio.
I read this as the eating habits being a consequence not of the strong Pluto/Scorpio in itself, but of the tension that my strong natal Saturn creates by focusing my attention away from my emotional needs.
I read this as the eating habits being a consequence not of the strong Pluto/Scorpio in itself, but of the tension that my strong natal Saturn creates by focusing my attention away from my emotional needs.
The Cumbria Shootings.Pluto?
On the 2 June 2010,local taxi driver Derrick Bird,shot dead 12 people,injured 11 others,before kiling himself.
First he shot his twin brother David,then the family solicitor.
In 1990 due to an allegation of theft from the Sellafield nuclear power plant,he resigned from his job.Later he was convicted of theft and given a 12 month suspended sentence.
At the time of the shootings Derrick was under investigation by HM Revenue and Customs.
A close friend of Derrick claimed he had been "made a fool out of "by a Thai girl that he met on holiday in Pattaya Thailand.
J.R.
On the 2 June 2010,local taxi driver Derrick Bird,shot dead 12 people,injured 11 others,before kiling himself.
First he shot his twin brother David,then the family solicitor.
In 1990 due to an allegation of theft from the Sellafield nuclear power plant,he resigned from his job.Later he was convicted of theft and given a 12 month suspended sentence.
At the time of the shootings Derrick was under investigation by HM Revenue and Customs.
A close friend of Derrick claimed he had been "made a fool out of "by a Thai girl that he met on holiday in Pattaya Thailand.
J.R.
miquar
Well-known member
Hi JerryRR. At that time, transiting Jupiter, Saturn, Chiron, Uranus and Neptune were all in about the last 2 degrees or the first degree of their respective signs. And transiting Mars was at 27 and a half degrees Leo at noon on the day, opposite transiting Neptune at 28 and a half Aquarius. The issue with the Thai girl and the investigation could have been reflected by strong Neptune transits to his natal chart, being triggered on the day of the shootings by transiting Mars. Transiting Pluto was unaspected that day (apart from sesquiqadrate to transiting Mercury) but of course could have been making a transit to a natal or progressed planet in Bird's chart.
Apparently he had an argument with work colleagues the day before and was already known to be unstable. He had a long-term interest in guns and had quite a collection at his house.
Does anyone know his date or even time of birth?
Apparently he had an argument with work colleagues the day before and was already known to be unstable. He had a long-term interest in guns and had quite a collection at his house.
Does anyone know his date or even time of birth?
miquar
Well-known member
Hi JerryRR. Surprisingly little transit activity that I can see. The obvious natal T square involving Moon Chiron Mars and Uranus is being aspected by semisquare and sesquiquadrate aspects from transiting Saturn. Transiting Moon seems to have triggered the natal T square during the morning.
Perhaps relevant to the upset over the girl is that transiting Neptune was in his 5th natal house and was Sesquiquadrate his Asc at the time of the shootings - triggered by transiting Mars as mentioned before, and also by his progressed Moon.
Natal Ascendant 12 Libra 28
Transiting Neptune 28 Aquarius 42
Transiting Mars 27 Leo 31
Progressed Moon 13 Capricorn 02
Transiting Neptune was 6 minutes of arc from squaring his natal Mars/Saturn midpoint on the day of the shootings.
Progressed Mars was semisquare natal Neptune within one minute of arc.
I haven't been through the transits and progressions systematically, and haven't looked at solar arc at all.
It seems that his natal Sun Pluto square and Mars in Scorpio must surely have been very relevant to his actions, plus perhaps natal Pluto in the 11th suggesting a sense of alienation from the human family and a sense of a dark future. So this is 'good' example of how Pluto energy can manifest.
With Sun in Fire square Pluto, and Mars in Scorpio in the 2nd house making the T-square to Uranus Chiron and Moon, he wouldn't have been the kind of person who could handle feeling emasculated during this time of Neptune interacting so intensely with his Mars.
By the way, Whitehaven is 54N33.
Thanks for putting this example up.
Perhaps relevant to the upset over the girl is that transiting Neptune was in his 5th natal house and was Sesquiquadrate his Asc at the time of the shootings - triggered by transiting Mars as mentioned before, and also by his progressed Moon.
Natal Ascendant 12 Libra 28
Transiting Neptune 28 Aquarius 42
Transiting Mars 27 Leo 31
Progressed Moon 13 Capricorn 02
Transiting Neptune was 6 minutes of arc from squaring his natal Mars/Saturn midpoint on the day of the shootings.
Progressed Mars was semisquare natal Neptune within one minute of arc.
I haven't been through the transits and progressions systematically, and haven't looked at solar arc at all.
It seems that his natal Sun Pluto square and Mars in Scorpio must surely have been very relevant to his actions, plus perhaps natal Pluto in the 11th suggesting a sense of alienation from the human family and a sense of a dark future. So this is 'good' example of how Pluto energy can manifest.
With Sun in Fire square Pluto, and Mars in Scorpio in the 2nd house making the T-square to Uranus Chiron and Moon, he wouldn't have been the kind of person who could handle feeling emasculated during this time of Neptune interacting so intensely with his Mars.
By the way, Whitehaven is 54N33.
Thanks for putting this example up.
the day derrick bird committed this crime, mars/neptune were moving into exact opposition and as miquar points out - neptune 135 ascendant.. actually mars 45 to ascendant is even closer, but regardless the opposition of these 2 planets connecting to his ascendant degree - 12 libra 28 - and the possibility of it connecting to some relationship on some level to a girl on foreign soil is interesting and i will tell you why.. small note - t venus is conjunct the midheaven 1 degree for the june 2nd date..
first off, derricks natal saturn is at the midpoint of venus/north node in the sign sagitarrius -the traveling to a foreign country sign.. if one looks at the solar arc directions for the time of this event they can note how the square in the natal chart of jupiter/venus has moved on to where natal saturn sits.. sa venus is close to an exact square to natal saturn, which is at the north node/venus midpoint as mentioned already... sec prog midheaven will highlight the natal saturn by square as well..
dissecting past events is a good learning tool that i find myself engaging in often.. this site is helpful in this regard as sometimes people will tell you enough info to take advantage of the option of doing this.. earlier today on the medical thread i was given the opportunity to look more closely at dates connected to surgery in a persons chart..
as for how pluto or saturn play out in heinous murders, i think it is tricky to just put it on the shoulders of any one planet.. obviously someone is suffering on some level, or demented for some short or long term reason to act in such a way..
here are a few other passing thoughts on derrick birds chart that i find curious astrologically.. the idea of a planet being besieged is one that i have been entertaining for the past while.. in derricks chart the sun is sandwiched between saturn and mars, although no specific aspect is involved.. actually since i like looking at obscure aspects, i note the distance from his mars to sun is very close to exact the 16th harmonic aspect i have mentioned here before - 22 degrees 30 minutes is an exact 16th harmonic which you can add or subtract to any of the 8th harmonic series to get 16 points in a chart all connected via 16th harmonic.. the exact distance from mars to sun in derricks chart is 22 degrees 20 minutes, so it is close... on the date of june 2nd t saturn was actually exactly 45 degrees away from his natal mars as well.. if you want to include chiron which is square onto his mars you can do that to all these connections as well..
the fact is the possibilities with astrology are endless.. someone will see one thing and someone else another... it really is a fascinating life time study with no end to the many ways it can be done as well which is why i like to think of it as an art.. interpreting pluto in all of this is also an art, hopefully guided by a collective better understanding of it too..
first off, derricks natal saturn is at the midpoint of venus/north node in the sign sagitarrius -the traveling to a foreign country sign.. if one looks at the solar arc directions for the time of this event they can note how the square in the natal chart of jupiter/venus has moved on to where natal saturn sits.. sa venus is close to an exact square to natal saturn, which is at the north node/venus midpoint as mentioned already... sec prog midheaven will highlight the natal saturn by square as well..
dissecting past events is a good learning tool that i find myself engaging in often.. this site is helpful in this regard as sometimes people will tell you enough info to take advantage of the option of doing this.. earlier today on the medical thread i was given the opportunity to look more closely at dates connected to surgery in a persons chart..
as for how pluto or saturn play out in heinous murders, i think it is tricky to just put it on the shoulders of any one planet.. obviously someone is suffering on some level, or demented for some short or long term reason to act in such a way..
here are a few other passing thoughts on derrick birds chart that i find curious astrologically.. the idea of a planet being besieged is one that i have been entertaining for the past while.. in derricks chart the sun is sandwiched between saturn and mars, although no specific aspect is involved.. actually since i like looking at obscure aspects, i note the distance from his mars to sun is very close to exact the 16th harmonic aspect i have mentioned here before - 22 degrees 30 minutes is an exact 16th harmonic which you can add or subtract to any of the 8th harmonic series to get 16 points in a chart all connected via 16th harmonic.. the exact distance from mars to sun in derricks chart is 22 degrees 20 minutes, so it is close... on the date of june 2nd t saturn was actually exactly 45 degrees away from his natal mars as well.. if you want to include chiron which is square onto his mars you can do that to all these connections as well..
the fact is the possibilities with astrology are endless.. someone will see one thing and someone else another... it really is a fascinating life time study with no end to the many ways it can be done as well which is why i like to think of it as an art.. interpreting pluto in all of this is also an art, hopefully guided by a collective better understanding of it too..