hour ruler

DiDi

Well-known member
Ive noticed more said about the hour ruler to be checked before a chart is even looked at.
Does anyone know if this applys to a event chart please?

At first I thought not, but now I think yes because its still a horay question on wanting to know the answer.
just because we want to know an answer doesnt mean a chart will allways tell us this even if it is an event chart.

not sure :}
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
No it does not apply to an event chart, relative to making the event "radical" or not; just like it does not apply relative to "radicality" in a birth chart or decumbiture; it could apply in an election, not making it radical but rather to help ensure that the quality and tides of the election are in synch with the planetary hour.

I have many problems with the issue of planetary hours-not that I doubt their validity, quite the contrary; but there are both historical and practical issues regarding them, at least to my understanding, and I never use them for deciding the radicality of a horary chart (application of the planetary hours to determine the radicality of horary began around the time of Guido Bonatti, in the 13th century; no use of planetary hours for such a purpose is to be found in the earlier horary authorities such as Al-Kindi, Abu'Mashar, Thabit ibn Qurra, Al-Biruni, Ibn Ezra, etc)

However, other (non horary) uses, quite important applications-including elections-of the planetary hours goes back to Greco-Roman times and I consider a correct understanding of the planetary hours very important in PRACTICAL astrological work, including in astro-therapeutics...
 

BobZemco

Well-known member
Ive noticed more said about the hour ruler to be checked before a chart is even looked at.
Does anyone know if this applys to a event chart please?

You should always know the Hour Ruler. It is an important component for all charts. I don't think the Persians fully understood how the Hellenistic group employed the Hour Ruler (and I'm right there with them) but it is used to determine the Chart Ruler in a Natal Chart and also for all other charts. There are also many Horary Questions that require the Hour Ruler to arrive at a judgment.

The Hour Ruler is used in part to determine the Chart Ruler in a Mundane Chart. In an Event Chart, the Hour Ruler can tell you who or what is the actual focus of the Event. In Natal, Solar Return and Event Charts, the Planet that is Hour Ruler has a slightly stronger signification than one that is not.

For those practicing Horary, it is really advantageous to develop your own method of systematically reviewing a chart so that no "minor details" are omitted and you get an accurate chart reading.

Regardless of the method chosen, the first thing will always be identifying the Hour Ruler and determining if the chart is valid and can be read. There are extenuating circumstances that allow you to ignore Hour Ruler agreement. If your spouse, child, family member or friend were injured, no one would expect you think about that for a couple of weeks before asking whether or not they'll survive or be okay, so while we would like the Hour Ruler to be in agreement, we can ignore it if it isn't.

The second thing would be checking for warnings: Late/Early Ascendant, Ascendant Via Combusta, Moon Via Combusta, Moon Void of Course, Saturn in the 1st or 7th House when not a significator and so on.

Then you start getting into the meat of the matter and you're free to decide how you want to proceed, whether its looking at Dignities & Affinities, or Planetary Strengths/Weaknesses or Aspects or whatever, just be sure you check your aspects with an ephemeris to make sure the aspect actually perfects.
 

DiDi

Well-known member
Thankyou Dr farr and Bob Zemco

Dr Farr you said

No it does not apply to an event chart, relative to making the event "radical" or not;
so you beleieve it does not apply?

it could apply in an election, not making it radical but rather to help ensure that the quality and tides of the election are in synch with the planetary hour.
so event/electional being the same type of chart for me is not a judgement for you but one of (more meaning to the chart for analysation)
Im talking about a event that occured and i asked the horay chart for information regarding it.
(its the homephone one i have in the communication horay ive asked about)

I feel a bit like I had an understanding of event charts but you go by the other person as being the 7th and i thought in events its the asc that gives clues to that.

Im confused a bit.


Bob Zemco

There are also many Horary Questions that require the Hour Ruler to arrive at a judgment.
Im thinking that now after seeing so many charts that should be one answser and yet the opposit turns out to be true.

In an Event Chart, the Hour Ruler can tell you who or what is the actual focus of the Event.
This is what im thinking to but if the event has happened and the ruler of the hour does not match, what does that say of the chart?


The second thing would be checking for warnings: Late/Early Ascendant, Ascendant Via Combusta, Moon Via Combusta, Moon Void of Course, Saturn in the 1st or 7th House when not a significator and so on.
yes I do look out for these things even though I admit to still looking at the chart to see if I can get a picture of whats going on but if I cant I will go back to these contengents.


For those practicing Horary, it is really advantageous to develop your own method of systematically reviewing a chart so that no "minor details" are omitted and you get an accurate chart reading.


yep all those strictures i look at, however to be honest i still look at them if its a early asc or late asc and if the moon is in void I will see if it aspects another ruler within 5 deg after its changed signs.
I have found sat on the asc/des and not a ruler hasnt given me any real readings and so I dont read them at all.

thats all i got so far

I will look at the hour ruler now
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
In an event chart (to my understanding) the planetary hour of the event does not make the event radical (ie, fit to be delineated), but it CAN BE a valuable subindication regarding the qualities of that event.

The event chart can be delineated in a variety of ways, many similar to horary. For example, say the EVENT is 2 people meeting. What are the significators? These will vary with what we are trying to delineate:
-the quality of the meeting itself, would center on the ascendant
-the ramifications of the meeting for the 2 people AS A UNIT, would be the 7th house
-the ramifications of the meeting for person 1 would be the first house (if this were the younger person) and would be the 7th house (if this were the older person) for person 2 (this is an oldtime Greco-Roman allocation based on age of persons in katarchic charts)
-the ramifications of the meeting relative to possible romance for both parties would be the 5th house from the 7th; the romantic ramifications of the event for person 1 specifically would be the 5th house from their signifying house, and the romantic ramifications for person 2 specifically would be the 5th house from their signifying house

...and so on; an event chart can be read from many different perspectives, depending upon what it is one is trying to delineate as a ramification of that event.

Remember too that we have event charts and then we (can have) horary charts based on the event: but these are 2 seperate types of delineation:
1) the delineation of the ramifications of the event
2) a horary question ABOUT the meaning of the event

Hope this clarifies things a bit.

With Planetary Hours we have a couple of built-in problems:

-does one follow the earliest practitioners (Greco-Roman through Abu Mashar, and also the Vedic astrology adepts) and use the 24 undivided hours of the day (from sunrise to sunrise) in calculating OR do you follow the later Arabic custom of dividing the hours into daylight and dark hours, in calculating what Planetary Hour is current (which since Bonatti is the only calculating method used, but which was described by Al-Biruni as "contrary to nature", and was criticized by Lyman Stowe in the early 20th century as being inferior to the original 24 undivided hours method of calculation-which, by the way, is the method I use)

-and then what time does one use in order to calculate the Planetary Hour? Whether one decides to use the original, ancient 24 undivided hour method or the later Arabic day/night divided hour method (which latter is the only method offered by the various free Planetary Hour calculators on the internet), one certainly must use the correct Solar/Cosmic time.
Prior to the 1800's that was no problem, using sundials and water-clocks connected to sundials, one always got the exact Solar/Cosmic time. Not any more, due to international time conventions we get civil time, which can be from 1 minute faster or slower than Sun/Cosmic time, up to as many as 15/16 minutes faster or slower than Sun/Cosmic time, depending upon the day of the year!
Planetary hours begin when the Sun cracks the horizon, NOT at the civil time given as "sunrise". So unless you correct your calculations (using Daily Sun Data on the internet) for real time (Sun/Cosmic time, also called local apparent time) you could be quite incorrect as to the real Planetary Hour the time, actually happens to be (all of the available Planetary Hour programs are set to civil time, NOT to Sun/Cosmic time; the Solar Fire program allows one to reset for local apparent time, but this must be manually done, otherwise the Solar Fire program also uses man-made civil time for sunrise/sunset, NOT Sun/Cosmic time)

...so these are 2 of the problems that need to be addressed, for proper (at least for historically correct) determination of the Planetary Hours...
 
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misskitty

Well-known member

Huh?

Okay, I am trying to get this hour ruler rule down, but some things remain confusing. Maybe some of the traditional astrologers can explain.

WHY is Mercury considered "Cold and dry?" That flies in the face of my perception of Mercury. It's the closest to the Sun and is usually even Combust in horary charts, so why isn't it hot?

Also, I would like to give an example to see if I am doing this right....
If Saturn is the hour ruler and Libra is on the ASC, then since Saturn is cold and Venus is cold,, then that means you have hour ruler agreement.... correct? Even though Saturn is dry and Venus is wet? :unsure:
 

DiDi

Well-known member
Well thanks for sharing the information
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiDi
spam?
re archers comment i thought was a bit random

Im happy for more info to misskitty
Only if what you say is true means i now have to detect what is dry or hot or cold, im not happy to have to do that:andy:
I thought ( and i will be prob wrong) but I thought all we had to do was watch out for example

hr ruler is say moon
aqu/asc so saturn rules and its in libra and ruler venus is in cancer so it can be read.
But then when I was confused I found out if in doubt I should look at the cold/dryness of the plannets involved.

so yeah guys anyone reading this please help
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
It is the element affinity, or planetary rulership affinity, that counts when looking at the affinity of the Planetary Hour with a chart or a chart element (as you know I do not use Planetary Hour/ascendant as a test for radicality of a chart, but I DO use Planetary Hours for other important purposes)

In my study of the matter, it is the elemental affinity of the Planetary Hour with the ascending sign:
Hot/Dry = Fire
Hot/Moist = Air
Cold/Dry = Earth
Cold/Moist = Water

It cannot be a partial element affinity, it must be a complete affinity: eg, Mercury is of the Earth element (ascribed as such, to Earth, in Western astrology since before Ptolemy, through the time of Paracelsus and to Lilly's times) Mercury as Planetary Hour ("hour ruler") resonates with all Earth signs: thus it would resonate with Taurus, Virgo and Capricorn (if one of these signs is on the ascendant) But since Mercury is of the Earth element, it does not resonate with the element Water, even though both Earth and Water have coldness in common.
So, it is by complete elemental affinity between the Planetary Hour and the chart that affinity/resonance is determined.

The additional rulership is if the Planetary Hour is the same as the planet ruling the ascending sign, even if the elemental affinity of the Planetary Hour is different than the elemental quality of the ascending sign: eg, Venus is of the Water element; however, if Venus is the Planetary Hour and Taurus (Earth element sign) is on the ascendant, there is still resonance between the Planetary Hour and the ascending sign because that sign is ruled by Venus.

Here is a brief table illustrating the above: (PH = Planetary Hour)

+if Sun is the PH then it is affinitive to the Fire element signs of Aries, Leo and Sagittarius and is additionally affinitive as sign ruler to Leo

+If Moon is the PH then it is affinitive to the Water element signs of Pisces, Cancer and Scorpio and is additionally affinitive as sign ruler to Cancer

+If Mercury is the PH then it is affinitive to the Earth element signs of Taurus, Virgo and Capricorn and is additionally affinitive as sign ruler to Gemini and Virgo

+If Venus is the PH then it is affinitive to the Water element signs of Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces and is additionally affinitive as sign ruler to Taurus and Libra

+If Mars is the PH then it is affinitive to the Fire element signs of Aries, Leo and Sagittarius and is additionally affinitive as sign ruler to Aries and Scorpio

+If Jupiter is the PH then it is affinitive to the Air element signs of Gemini, Libra and Aquarius and is additionally affinitive as sign ruler to Sagittarius and Pisces

+If Saturn is the PH then it is affinitive to the Earth element signs of Taurus, Virgo and Capricorn and is additionally affinitive as sign ruler to Capricorn and Aquarius

...therefore, if Planetary Hour is:

-SUN = Aries, Leo, Sagittarius
-MOON = Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces
-MERCURY = Taurus, Gemini, Virgo, Capricorn
-VENUS = Taurus, Cancer, Libra, Scorpio, Pisces
-MARS = Aries, Leo, Scorpio, Sagittarius
-JUPITER = Gemini, Libra, Sagittarius, Aquarius, Pisces
-SATURN = Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn, Aquarius


Addenda:
-some have included the sign of the Planetary Hour's exaltation in the affinitive list; eg, say the Moon is the PH, it is exalted in Taurus, so if Taurus is the ascending sign and the Moon the PH there is resonant affinity; I myself do not follow this addition to Planetary Hour "lore"
-some say that if the planet of the PH is posited in a sign of which its triplicity is the same element as the ascending sign, then there is PH affinity: eg, PH is the Sun; in the chart the Sun is in Cancer, a Water element sign, and another Water element sign, Pisces, rises on the ascendant; therefore there is resonance between the PH (Sun in this case) and the triplicty related ascending sign (Pisces in this case); I also do not follow this later addition (a complicating addition to my mind) to the Planetary Hour "lore"...
 
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misskitty

Well-known member
-some say that if the planet of the PH is posited in a sign of which its triplicity is the same element as the ascending sign, then there is PH affinity: eg, PH is the Sun; in the chart the Sun is in Cancer, a Water element sign, and another Water element sign, Pisces, rises on the ascendant; therefore there is resonance between the PH (Sun in this case) and the triplicty related ascending sign (Pisces in this case); I also do not follow this later addition (a complicating addition to my mind) to the Planetary Hour "lore"...

A big THANK YOU dr. farr, as this was the exact rule that was confusing me. So this is a more modern addendum to hour ruler agreement? If so, then I prefer not to use it, as I am trying to learn traditional first.

Also, this thread should be a sticky.

Next question: What does it mean if NONE of the horaries you've asked about a particular situation is radical? I don't dare ask again...
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
The triplicity affinity of the place of the PH planet vis a vis the ascendant dates back to Lilly (possibly a bit before), so it is by no means modern; however, I consider it relatively "modern" because applications of the Planetary Hours goes way back to Greco-Roman times: they used the PH relative only to elemental affinity of the PH with the chart or chart componenet they were looking at, or if the PH were the same as the planetary ruler of the sign/chart component they were looking at. I like to keep things simple and so I stick with this original way of applying the PH.

As I have stated previously, although considering the PH very important I do not use them to determine the "radicality" of the horary chart (because this was not done in the first 5 centuries of Western horary, prior to Bonatti in the 13th century)
But of course I do not knock such a practice.
Therefore (in my opinion):
IF one is using the PH to qualify a given horary chart as radical, and none of the horaries about a given situation is radical (based on the PH), it would symbolically indicate that the situation under horary consideration is in a state of Cosmic flux, and that nothing definitive can be derived from the Cosmos, regarding that situation, during this period of time; it would indicate that time must pass, perhaps a moderate period of time depending upon the situation under horary consideration, and then the matter investigated again at this later time.
 
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gemini59

Well-known member
Now I am mostly confused. But usually when I am mostly confused the light is starting to creep in these little grey cells.

I pulled a horary with 25'14 degrees Sagitarius. Jupiter is in Taurus in the fourth. I use astrowin and astrowin pulled up planetary ruler as Venus.

The question was about relationship. So I am confused about why it would not be correct ruler or not. What does the planetary ruler tell us about the chart or not.
If you pull a chart it is what it is.
 

misskitty

Well-known member
IF one is using the PH to qualify a given horary chart as radical, and none of the horaries about a given situation is radical (based on the PH), it would symbolically indicate that the situation under horary consideration is in a state of Cosmic flux, and that nothing definitive can be derived from the Cosmos, regarding that situation, during this period of time; it would indicate that time must pass, perhaps a moderate period of time depending upon the situation under horary consideration, and then the matter investigated again at this later time.

Sigh. That message is consistent with other messages I have received. That the universe is telling me to chill out, let go, and stop worrying about my future so much. It is extremely difficult for me, so probably all the more important a lesson for me to learn. *bangs head on desk*

Thanks as always dr. farr.
 

misskitty

Well-known member
The question was about relationship. So I am confused about why it would not be correct ruler or not. What does the planetary ruler tell us about the chart or not.

Unfortunately there are different views on what it means if you don't have hour ruler agreement. Some people think if you don't have it then the entire chart is invalid (i'm leaning towards this). Others believe it is just another factor in the chart, and non-agreement means that the question wasn't all that pressing (my experience tells me otherwise- I've never asked a question about something that wasn't pressing to me). Others don't take it into consideratio at all.

I'm leaning towards it meaning that the entire chart is invalid, and if you keep getting invalid charts then- as dr. farr said- it means to stop worrying about it because the situation is not decided yet.

No wonder horary is so hard to learn!
 
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gemini59

Well-known member
But what I am asking is if Sagitarius is rising at 25 and jupiter is in taurus the hour ruler is venus is that an indication that the chart is radical. Or for the chart to be radical the ascendant would need to be Taurus, Cancer, Libra, Scorpio, Pisces or the PH would need to be Sun, mars, or jupiter?

So for some reason when I asked the question if was not correct corrallary then it is not fit to read? Hmm ...well...
 

misskitty

Well-known member
According to the strict definition, no, it isn't radical. It's frustrating, I know. I just came to the realization last night that 99% of the charts I've done over the last 3 years aren't radical because of the hour ruler. The ones that WERE radical gave a clear answer that was 100% correct. The ones that weren't were all fuzzy situations with no clear outcome and no clear results, or ended negatively.
 

dhundhun

Well-known member
According to the strict definition, no, it isn't radical. It's frustrating, I know. I just came to the realization last night that 99% of the charts I've done over the last 3 years aren't radical because of the hour ruler. The ones that WERE radical gave a clear answer that was 100% correct. The ones that weren't were all fuzzy situations with no clear outcome and no clear results, or ended negatively.

Discovery of Neptune did have same effect on interpretation Natal Charts.

Planatory hour rulers are of great help in Horary and Election. In fact the work Hora means Planatory Hour; from there, Horary Astrology starts.
 
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