Predicting Death

waybread

Well-known member
Rockfish, my own personal belief is that some astrologers are psychic, and that the glyphs and degrees of astrology are merely devices that help them get in touch with their clairvoyant abilities. Other psychics might use crystal balls, tarot cards, or tea leaves. The ones who are known simply as "psychics" don't rely on such props. Everyone has intuitive abilities to some degree, and I think astrology can help astrologers develop this capacity.

In cases like the one you describe, however, I don't think it is the horoscope per se that gives that information.

I realize that traditional astrologers would disagree with me, because traditional astrology does have a very long history of predicting death. Also, some astrologers are far more skillful and knowledgeable than I will ever become, so just possibly if I knew what they know, I might change my mind.

And then again, how often do the astrology articles make a big issue out of incorrect predictions? I think these just slink away. Like Britain's foremost pre-war mundane astrologer, Charles Carter, failing to predict World War II.

But to take Lilly's very thoughtful and intriguing post (by a traditional astrologer), I don't dispute that quincunxes might be prominent at the time of some deaths. But I don't see them as reliable predictors of death. Right now on the planet a child is born every 2-3 seconds, so quincunxes don't always have a death-dealing effect.

In terms of medical astrology, there are many different causes of death and decumbiture. So it makes sense to me to think that death horoscopes should equally be highly individualistic.
 

DiDi

Well-known member
hi everyone
this thread has been very interesting thanks.

waybread.... you said..... It appears from your research that a death can be just as individualistic as a birth.

I think this is where one should begin to study someones demise... If one should have to do this. Me id prefer not to know.

my dad died suddenly in his sleep one night age 49
My sister and i had just given birth to our girls 1 week prior.
very emotional time.
His health background unhealthy eating in his youth and early adult life little excersise and smoker. Not over weight though!
stressfull work life then at around 44 got diabeties.. It was undiagnosed and so it had affected his heart. thats how he found out, by a heart attack which left the bottom of his heart muscles deajected.
he was on severl insulin injections daily then tapered to 3

Just before he died his skin was a little jaundousy now that i think about it and showed up in photos holding his new granddaughters. showing liver damage is suspect.

this is his chart at the time of death.
died.gif


birth sorry about the long charts the little 0nes were fuzzy.


dad.gif





so firstly i see his ic is 15 deg aries ruler mars which is placed on his asc at death.

also moons node at time of death was conjunct his sun
saturn was 18 aqu conj his natal 2nd house.. he allways felt haveing diabeties was a hit to his self esteem.

his natal mars and uranus being early gemini was also hit with a stellium of 4 plannets.. mars seems to crop up here alot.
chiron was conj his north node leo sign of heart
 
Last edited:

Lost_spirit

Well-known member
Do you think there are big differences in transits at the time of death when death is unexpected and sudden,like by an accident,instead of death by natural causes or an illness?
I imagine that when someone has a natural death after an illness or old age,it's more a relieve for him,so there could be as well a big positive aspect.But when death is sudden,that's not necessarily the case.Mars or Uranus could play a big role in this as well.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Lost spirit and Didi, thanks for your examples. Deanna, thanks for the link. I guess they reinforce MHO that something astrological happens at the moment of death; but that the horoscopes are so different that they don't make good predictors for someone else.
 

deanna

Well-known member
Lost spirit and Didi, thanks for your examples. Deanna, thanks for the link. I guess they reinforce MHO that something astrological happens at the moment of death; but that the horoscopes are so different that they don't make good predictors for someone else.

Definitely.
I also had a Solar Arc going on when my sister was killed- which was the day after my birthday.
 

DiDi

Well-known member
That seems to be so true waybread, like a birthchart is so uniquie so is the end of life chart.

Lost_spirit... im thinking also that different plannets have to be involved depending of circustances of the nataure of the end of ones life.

Like we all come in with different paths and different things to go through in life so maybe the type of death is the same.

deanna i would like to see the chart of your sister also if you feel you would like to put it up!
 

Icaticus

New member
I've noticed with death charts, as the time of death approaches, many quincunxes seem to form,by transit to natal planets, (adjustments to be made) and the hours afterwards seem to have lots of quintiles.(easy and *spiritual* energies)..

Fascinating observation. Based on how many charts and over a large geographical area or just your local area? I have been obsessed with studying inconjuncts (save for my last 3 year hiatus from study in astrology). I found some relational patterns involving quincunx and some interesting personality trait changes based on transitional charts (with houses, Koch used) and weighting to natal with asteroids included. I realize the presence of Qx isnt going to predict death but it may be an indicater of other things. Example, I found a desire for transcendance of self can come durring a time of high amounts of Qx realating with the TMN and PoF to the Ascendant.

My mentors' mentor, she is quite talented in predictive astology and predicting death but she is also the poster-add for TMI. In fact once she figured out how to do it she scared herself into stopping practicing and became a recluse. A sad waist of talent... i wish she would share her knowledge though. Oh well guess I'll just have to figure that part out for myself.
 
Last edited:

Lost_spirit

Well-known member
You also have to know the Hyleg and Alcochoden. These are the givers of life in the chart, like God and a Guardian Angel. These are your 9 lives, so to speak (meow). When the Anareta comes along by Square or Conjunction etc., to the Hyleg; the Hyleg having already "expired" (there are different ways this can happen), then the native will encounter a very dangerous situation, possible death.

About the hyleg expiring,I've read several articles on this,and I think you mean the planetary years given by the Alcochoden.If the Alcochoden gives you 75 years of life,after this time passes,any bad aspects from the Anareta to the Hyleg can cause death.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Joseph, I have great respect for your knowledge of traditional astrology. But I am struck by your comment that you could have died but didn't at a moment when your transits looked grim. So in this instance you did not die.

Part of the reason for the "death" of astrology as a respected academic subject during the Enlightenment were some very senior astrologers making some very incorrect death-clock predictions. One of them was the great medical doctor and astrologer Jean-Baptise Morin (1583-1659) who was off by a mere 5 years in forecasting the death of one of his critics [Jim Tester, A History of Western Astrology, 232-7.] When Morin attempted to defend astrology's truth claims against an attack by a leading Jesuit scholar who noted that astrologers were too often simply wrong in their predictions, Morin did not respond with a defense of astrologers' track record; but basically compared astrology with other fields of study that, in his day, also made a lot of poor predictions. I. e., there were "quacks in all professions," so there was no reason to single out astrology for its inaccuracies. Well, the professions Morin identified included medicine and navigation; two fields that still make mistakes, but that subsequently advanced significantly in their predictive accuracy.

Well, this isn't such a problem for traditional astrology where little rides upon the outcome of a prediction; but where someone's death is concerned, there are too many ethical and subjective considerations to make death prediction a sound practice.

In my opinion.
 

smilingsteph

Well-known member
I too have conflictions with this subject. While you may be able to calculate things, there are certainly issues where one needs to turn to a higher power for answers, and to me this is that type of issue. Just my personal take.
 
Waybread,
but where someone's death is concerned, there are too many ethical and subjective considerations to make death prediction a sound practice

Well said, I agree I don't believe there is enough evidence or proof that can be relied upon and I certainly wouldn't even attempt to.

"The Astrology Of Death" by Richard Houck.

Just found this off the internet when I googled michael jackson chart. Don't know if its any good though
 

RockFish

Well-known member
Well, now that I'm studying progressions and solar arcs and they are starting to make (a lot of) sense, thanks to Noel Tyl, I suddenly understand the problem with predicting death.

I checked some progressions, arcs and transits for me and got terrified with a year in the near future that seems particularly grim. I was already wondering what to do with the little time that is left for me... Unpleasant feeling. :pinched:

Lucky me, I doubt my own skills too much to believe this 100%, and I still have to check other cases of grim progressions and transits to know what i'm dealing with here... I'll keep an eye open that year, but I won't let this thing make me paranoid... hopefully. :whistling:

I now see how this whole thing can be dangerous. If you get someone with a suggestible mind or who fears death too much and predict death to them, they can go bonkers. Not everybody is made of tough material to discuss this kind of thing. Besides, the astrologer can always be wrong, so why taking risks with such a sensitive subject? You can turn someone's life upside down with such a "prediction"... Unless death is iminent and the client has practical concerns about it, then I think such a prediction must be avoided.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Joseph, thanks. We may have to simply "agree to disagree."

On another thread, Frank posted the codes of ethics for two professional astrological associations:

The International Scoiety for Astrological Research has a Certified Astrological Professional (C.A.P.) Code of Ethics, found here:
http://www.isarastrology.com/code-of-ethics-mainmenu-41/read-code
The National Council for Geocosmic Research Ethics Code is at:
http://www.geocosmic.org/about/ethics.shtml

So far as I can tell, neither organization actually forbids making death predictions, but they have a lot to say about astrologers' treating their clients with utmost sensitivity, avoiding frightening their clients, and "not participating[ing] in activities in which it appears likely that their expertise or data will be misused by others." [NCGC] There is a "first do no harm" thesis underlying these codes.

The problem with death predictions for clients or forum members [vs. "post mortems" or "postdictions"] is that these conditions can be very hard to meet.

If I were to predict that "Mary" would get run over by a bus on July 17, 2012 and not recover, I wouldn't know how frightened or upset she might be by this information unless I knew her personally. Possibly Mary would become reclusive and depressed in her own home, just to avoid walking across the street. Or possibly she would take a lot of big risks during the next 3 years, figuring she was invulnerable till her predicted death date.

If I were wrong, and Mary lived another 20 years only to die in her sleep, I would have done her a big disservice. I would also be doing astrologers a big disservice, as our truth-claims are so readily dismissed in society.

If I were correct, [remember the Sleeping Beauty story?] even then, I might not know if Mary would share my prediction with others, possibly an unscrupulous husband who would clean out her bank account just prior to her death, making her will meaningless. Let alone what could happen to her finances in the hands of an unscrupulous astrologer.

Many years ago, I wanted to be psychic. I don't know why, but it seemed like a good idea at the time. Then I suddenly realized with horror the full implications of what this would mean. I would know when and how my children would die. I would know about all of the impending wars and brutality inflicted upon millions of innocent victims, yet be powerless to stop it. And so on. So now I think we are generally much better off being unable to predict death. I leave this up to God.

Speaking of Whom, I don't mean to lay a religious trip on anyone who is not religious or spiritual, but this really is the gist of the Bible's condemnations of the Chaldeans [i. e. astrologers.] Some of the prophets mocked prognosticators' efforts to predict the future, as God was powerful enough to overturn their predictions according to His own timing, power, and plans.

So I wouldn't say that an astrologer should never predict death; and doing a "post-mortem" is less dangerous. But for most professional and amateur purposes, I don't think it is a wise idea.

I do think medical astrology is legitimate, including for very serious illness and injuries, but this is different than a flat-out death-clock prediction.
 

waybread

Well-known member
An interesting and thoughtful reply, Joseph.

Unfortunately I just don't have a lot of confidence in the accuracy of death predictions. I suspect that Morin's misjudgements were not a one-off occurance.

And because of this suspicion, I would really hate to see "death clock astrology" occupy a bigger place in our field. I mean, it's bad enough if a well-meaning (or not-so-well-meaning) amateur reads a natal horoscope for a basic character analysis and gets it wrong. Imagine the harm that could be done if such an "astrologer" were to get into the death prediction business. A real sorcerer's apprentice scenario.

You might be a very mature, educated, and well-intended person. But in writing what you do on a public Forum, you have no control over amateur or inept (or even dishonest) professional astrologers who decide to predict people's deaths because they read on the Internet that it is possible and perhaps even a good idea.

I am mindful that masters of various traditional esoteric types of "knowledge" did not publicize some of their lore, precisely because it could be misused or misinterpreted if it fell into the wrong hands. Some rabbis thought that men shouldn't study Jewish mysticism until they reached at least the age of 40. Other cognoscenti wrote in a very cryptic kind of code, which only initiates could interpret. Maybe this isn't such a bad idea today--assuming that death clock astrology actually works.

Death prediction in astrology just has too many "danger" signs posted all over it for me to think that it should occupy more than an antiquarian place in our discipline.

So this isn't about fear of death. It is about sensitivity surrounding it.
 
Last edited:

lillyjgc

Senior Member, Educational board Editor
Waybread,
i agree with your comment back on page one, that the appearances of quincunxes should not be used as a death predictor-It's so much easier to see *after the event* than it is to see it in advance.
In terms of predicting death on a public Forum-definitely not.I think there are certain circumstances where it is appropriate to help someone in that way, if it is important to them, and a relationship of trust exists between the Astrologer and the client.I don't think that can be achieved in a public forum.

When it became apparent my stepfather was going to die of his illness, it was useful to use Astrology to look at timing. In that process I also considered every family members' Natal charts.There were strong aspects affecting everybody-indications of death happening, but if any one of us had gone to see an astrologer at that time, would they have been able to see who was the one dying? I am doubtful.
To just tell someone, *out of the blue* that their life expectancy is x years, based on one's own interpretation of a natal chart would be highly unethical, potentially damaging (remember, like doctors, we must *do no harm*), but to advise them to avoid say water sports, (as my astrologer has warned my daughter) could indeed be an important part of their decision making in terms of playing it safe in their life.
William Lilly i think does have a long treatise somewhere about how to calculate length of life, and yes it also includes a sound knowledge of the hyleg and other lesser used points in modern astrology.
Cheers
Lillyjgc
 

waybread

Well-known member
Well spoken, Lilly. But you probably recall Walt Disney's animated version of The Sorcerer's Apprentice, in which Mickey Mouse decided to mimic his master--and with disastrous results that he could not control. What is to prevent other ill-informed or even malicious apprentices from using this astrological information to the harm of their "clients" or the disrepute of astrology?

I don't know about Lilly, but traditional astrology during the Enlightenment was littered with cases of magi who got it wrong. Their errors contributed to astrology's demise as a credible subject.

Not what we need today, I believe!
 

gaer

Well-known member
Well spoken, Lilly. But you probably recall Walt Disney's animated version of The Sorcerer's Apprentice, in which Mickey Mouse decided to mimic his master--and with disastrous results that he could not control. What is to prevent other ill-informed or even malicious apprentices from using this astrological information to the harm of their "clients" or the disrepute of astrology?

I don't know about Lilly, but traditional astrology during the Enlightenment was littered with cases of magi who got it wrong. Their errors contributed to astrology's demise as a credible subject.

Not what we need today, I believe!
The bottom line remains: Do No Harm.

There are two extremes here.

One is the danger of self-fulfilled prophecies. People can literally be scared to death.

The other extreme is the potential life-saving potential of wise advise. In Lilly's example, we will never know, for sure, if the advise to stay away from water sports might have saved her life.

I would not want to be told that my death is coming, and it is inevitable. I see no good in that.

However, if I had a terminal disease, if I knew for certain that I had only a rather short window of time to take care of things, then I can see where knowing more precisely when the end is coming could be very helpful.

The terrible thing about death is that it often comes after a long period of suffering, and so far we are not free to choose our own time of ending the pain.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Joseph, thanks for yet another thoughtful, informed reply.

If professional astrologers as a body were more accurate in their predictions of important life events, I might change my mind. But the fact remains that some of the professionals--and prior to the early 20th century they were all traditionalists--have made errors in their predictions. Morin's weak defense of astrology and his own miscalculations in death predictions are but one example. Today there is nothing to prevent amateurs and charlatans who know far less astrology than the true professionals from trying to impress their friends or squeeze dollars out of gullible, frightened clients with a kind of astrology that is bad by any measure.

Some doors need to be closed. Not because they cannot be opened, but because they should not be opened.

Moreover, if the Bible [Jewish or Christian] is of any interest to you, you will find the prophets' condemnations of prognostication [e. g. of the "Chaldeans."] Why? Because God can and does make a mockery of their predictions. It is His universe and He can direct it at will. On the other hand, if you are an agnostic or atheist, then you need at least some explanation as to why the universe should be structured [and by Whom or by What] to determine those life-events you cite.

I believe in a choice-centered astrology. I believe that variables that cannot be transparently read off a chart [such as ethnicity and gender] have a huge impact in the outcome of someone's life.

I am very comfortable with the motto, "Let go and let God."
 

Bir Singh Khari

Well-known member
Hi All,

I have a question. Scorpio is in my 8th house and both Mars, Saturn and Pluto are in my 8th house, which from what I understand are the natural rulers of the 8th house and Scorpio. Does this mean I have a short life and violent death?

If you do not mind then please send your birth details ( DATE , TIME & Birth plACE )


Thank you
 
Top