The "Dark Moon" Lilith

[Psalm]

Anyone have any thoughts on Lilith? I have heard a lot of conflicting viewpoints on her - Such as: She was a symbol of female sexual power and deep wisdom until men defamed her and turned her into this 'creature of the underworld' that she is still seen as. Thoughts?


[Mod edit - thread moved here, as it discusses a calculated point in the chart and not an established planet.]

[Lin]

Personally, I don't use Lilith in my readings. Someday, when a lot of research has been done on hypothetical planets and asteroids, there will be some hard core information about these bodies & books will be written. I won't be around, I don't think. But till that time, using the planets and nodes & the astrology available today can probably give you 95% of everything you need to know to give a good, solid, accurate reading. In other words, what I am saying is that if you leave out the aforementioned smaller bodies, your reading will not suffer.
LIN

[waybread]

Like the moon and Venus, Lillith will operate a little differently in a man's or a woman's chart. In a female chart, it can show where and how she breaks the boundaries of conventional femininity. In a man's chart, it can show the kind of woman he most dislikes or fears [assuming he's a traditional sort of guy.] Obviously a lot depends upon aspects. A square from outer planets to BBL in a woman's chart might give her a propensity to be aggravating and difficult. A trine to BBL in a man's chart from the moon or Venus might suggest that he admires more feminist types of women.

There are actually two Liliths in astrology: one is a kind of 2nd moon, the other is an asteroid. Although their meanings are about the same, the former is the prevalent one.

[Niplan]

I use her as a savage point of dark fantasies and things we dont want to admit are within ourselves. The very darkest meaning of the sign house and aspects combined. A black whole of dark lustful enticing succubi power.

that will if followed lead you to your destruction, but if admitted to, and grown around cause another facit of our personality and force us to see things that we all share in common we may not want to admit we all posses.

[waybread]

Fair enough, Niplan. That was certainly mythological Lilith's role in Jewish folklore! She was the night-demon who stole babies out of cribs and spoiled the milk. Feminists in astrology have made her into a more empowering figure. If well aspected, she might show where a woman is willing to be herself, even if her male-oriented society doesn't approve. I note, too, that not all men appreciate the Sunday School teacher persona in a woman.

[waybread]

No censorship here, Jenna.

If you have a Person of Interest, you might look at the synastry.

Otherwise, favourable moon and Venus aspects to BML, or generally favourable aspects (sextiles, trines). A conjunction would be fine if it doesn't involve a "hostile" planet.

I might note that I have BML in my 7th house, yet I have been married (twice) most of my adult life.

[divine g]

I actually learned a lot from knowing where my lillith and juno were. I personally experienced Niplan's description of it as

A black whole of dark lustful enticing succubi power.

I think that while Juno shows what a man needs in a marriage partner, Lilith represents what it is in a mistress that tempts him to stray, and it's good that he not confuse the two.

For example, I learned that with my Lilith in Cancer, Im attracted to nurturing women, but those types usually end up being succubi, clinging on to me, draining my energy(and trying to drain my wallet). My juno in Aquarius shows that while I'm attracted to that Cancerian type, it's best that I have a partner who gives me a lot of "breathing" room. It took me a long time to understand that, but that knowledge is invaluable to me now.

So I disagree that lesser known asteroids aren't important. I think very soon, they will gain more importance and give even more insight into charts, as Chiron has in the past 20-30 years. And as confusing and as vague as charts can be, any additional insight is valuable, and could even be the missing link to understanding it. Nothing else in my chart showed me that deeper side to myself until I learned where my Lilith and Juno were.

[Niplan]

I was using the lots and my lot of marriage for valens, the one that translates to the "Deception of men by women" the one that is ment as lust, Is actualy conjunct my DML, Moon conjunction in 29 Taurus in the 10th.

and from what i understand of the positions it would show that my want and need is with lillith, what i desire and what i am willing to do to get it would be any sort of deception, it would be a woman in power, a woman in supreame power vewied by all, stuborn and bullheaded controling and demanding.

And thats right, I don't know if I came to that because i know that to be true in my self, or if that really is what the arangment says.

[noideaaboutastro]

I can see what Lilith and Juno would mean in a man's chart, but how would it manifest itself in a woman's? My Lilith is in Virgo (9th house) where my Moon is while my Juno (7th house) is in Gemini where my Sun also.

[divine g]

I think that Lilith shows how you use your seductive powers on a man..For example, I just checked, and my ex's Lilith is conjunct mines, which is a big coincidence because our junos are conjunct also, and we're born 9 years apart. So if your Lilith is conjunct a significant other's Lilith(or another important planet for that matter), your seduction style could work like a charm. Not sure what Lilith in 9th house Virgo means, but I figure it would entail seducing others to faraway, exotic places..maybe catering to your partner's needs is the key to seducing him..

[Niplan]

Im friends with a woman who has her sun conjunct my DML... its some pretty carnal, lustful conversations sometimes.

[waybread]

Although BML can and does play into male fantasies, she is, above all, the woman for herself. Lilith was a character in Jewish folklore; and before that, in Babylonian lore. Lilith was the night-demon who stole babies out of their cradles and soured the milk and made men do......well, forget it. She was Adam's wife prior to Eve, but because she refused to obey Adam, she was banished. Eve still wasn't the perfectly obedient wife (snakes with apples, anyone?) but she was more domesticated than Lilith, who went off to the desert to consort with demons.

Well, this is a pretty heady stew, all right! So for traditional males who prefer meek, domesticated, deferential females, Lilith might appear as a kind of raging feminist--or a sailor's dream. For men and women who no longer think obedience is a wonderful personal quality, Lilith might just be where they find liberation or seek it in women.

[noideaaboutastro]

Originally Posted by divine g

I think that Lilith shows how you use your seductive powers on a man..For example, I just checked, and my ex's Lilith is conjunct mines, which is a big coincidence because our junos are conjunct also, and we're born 9 years apart. So if your Lilith is conjunct a significant other's Lilith(or another important planet for that matter), your seduction style could work like a charm. Not sure what Lilith in 9th house Virgo means, but I figure it would entail seducing others to faraway, exotic places..maybe catering to your partner's needs is the key to seducing him..

Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't think I seduce anyone and if I ever did it would be for money reasons (as horrible as that sounds). I also don't cater to needs.....

[Cupcake]

Lilith is square my asc and semi square my venus.. I'm not sure what this means..

[Sunny]

Times ago I had Lilith transitting my ASC and have been afraid what could happen to me. But there was nothing of bad, on the contrary it has been a very creative and productive period for me.

[Sunny]

When Lilith is in the first house in a natal chart within Cancer - will this show simultaneously a desire to live and a brake for this wish? So in a time to like to go out in the world and at same time to need to be in the unborn situation?
Is there someone who has experience with this position of Lilith?

[snap13]

From what I 've read, I tend to believe BML represents the darker side of ourselves and can also represent our anima as was mentioned above. This article seems to resonate well with me as to what BML represents: http://www.aquamoonlight.co.uk/lilith-dark-moon.html

Does anyone have any info on composite BML? I found an article relating composite BML points to "real soul in the relationship." Not sure exactly what that means other than indicating the relatioinship deeply touches the 2 involved in regard to whatever issues are activated by the placement of BML. I'd be curious if anyone has any info on composite BML and house placement. With one intense relationship, we have BML/Aquarius in the 7th opposite Pluto (exact).

[Mercurius]

There are three Liliths and I found a great summary of each one by http://home.epix.net/~tzarathu/THE%20THREE%20LILITHS.html" Sue Simmons
Summarized she says:

"1. ASTEROID LILITH
The glyph for Lilith the asteroid is a straight horizontal line with 4
small vertical lines sticking up from it, sort of like an upturned
rake head, and then on the right below the horizontal line is a very
small mark like a capital L (or in some cases a V).
(Use 1181 in Astro.com)

2.BLACK MOON LILITH
What is BML? Black Moon Lilith is a point in the moon's orbit. It is
not a body in the sky. It is the lunar apogee, the farthest point
that the Moon gets from Earth....
Glyphs for BML: When you are writing about it you can spell out Black
Moon Lilith and then use Black Moon or abbreviate BML. If you just
say Lilith you are referring to the asteroid. The glyph is a black
third quarter Moon with a black cross below. The tips of the black
Moon point to the right.
(Use Lilith, in astro.com)

3. DARK MOON LILITH
This is a "second moon" to the Earth. It is a non-reflective body
(hence the name Dark Moon)
The glyph is a circle or zero with a diagonal line like a forward
slash, cutting through it. In writing use Dark Moon Lilith at first,
then Dark Moon or DML to avoid confusion.
( Use h58 in astro.com)"

As for myself

I have been studying the Lilith question for some time now and now have started to break down how I can use her in chart interpretation.
There are in fact 3 Liliths within our solar system. Demetria George suggest's they could be seen as the triple moon Goddess. Which I think makes sense. I see them like this. And each aspect can be seen negatively AND positively. Most people on forums seem to see her negatively and that's surprising.

Asteroid Lilith: Cresent.
The young idealistic feminist Lilith. Who seeks equality. Will not compromise her beliefs.
Negatively: Ball breaking, men hating Medusas.

Black Moon Lilith: Full Moon. Sexual Magic, The seductress, Sex for enlightenment not procreation, Creative power. White witch.
Negatively: Black witch. Manipulation and Svengalism over others

Dark Moon Lilith: Dark Moon.
Exile, Regeneration, the shadow side, exorcising demons, healing wounds.
Negatively: Raging, revengeful, lashing out.

I'm fascinated with Lilith and am researching it thru my Blog "The Lilith Pages" using it in studies of relevant birth charts, in synastry and in the charts of sex offenders.

I have done an indepth look at Dark Moon Lilith as this is the one I knew least about and is probably the hardest to define.
Dark Muse-Dark Moon Blog "http://astra-lilith.blogspot.com/2009/10/lord-byron-hitler-johnny-depp-and-lewis.html"

[beatnikgirl]

I have Dark Moon Lilith and asteroid Lilith in scorpio opposite sun in Taurus all sat in either in my 8th or 9th house dependent on which house system you lean towards. I find personally I'm inclined to believe it must be 9th because of my philosophy to life, as liliths dark nature doesn't appear to have manifested in death destructive or sexual deviant behaviour. I'm a feminist but I'm into equality not domination. The only thing that I see her influence is I'm interested in mythology and very drawn to the mythologies and influences of women in religion and society. I did a lot of research and art work around some of the negative stereotypes of women in art, film , folklore, religion and mythology, looking at such characters as Kali, Medusa, Persephone, Demeter, Hecate etc as well as many others. Virgin, Mother, Whore /Crone, all stereotypical roles for women all probably roles we all capable of becoming or playing, yet in most belief systems/cultures only Virgin and Mother is revered, the whore or crone are seen as outcast untouchables. Yet in earlier matriarchal cultures we have the triple goddess and all those roles were accepted, appeased or worshiped.
I think lilith dependent on where placed is where you are tested and pushed to accept the darker elements of self and also the true nature of women in your life, your mother, sister, granny, wife, aunt, best female friend, is only human and is capable of selfishness, betrayal, anger, hate, but that doesn't make them an evil person it just uncovers the veil, and shows they are human.
Anyone else have lilith in Scorpio and curious how it's manifested for them.

[Mercurius]

Originally Posted by beatnikgirl

I have Dark Moon Lilith and asteroid Lilith in scorpio opposite sun in Taurus all sat in either in my 8th or 9th house dependent on which house system you lean towards. I find personally I'm inclined to believe it must be 9th because of my philosophy to life, as liliths dark nature doesn't appear to have manifested in death destructive or sexual deviant behaviour.

Having a Scorpionic Lilith is like having it in the 8th house anyway. But as you say you havent experienced the dark side of Lilith in the area of sexual behavior which having it in Scorpio would also suggest, then I guess we are falling into the brainwashing again that Lilith has to darken/soil anything she touches.
Lilith in the 8th doesn't have to be death and destructive behavior at all. Its an an extremely potent position for it. Sex is a creative energy. Its powerfully healing and transformative. The 8th house is about regeneration, occult and Magic. Having Lilith there brings out the Hekate/Crone aspect of her.
I also have her either 9th or 10th. Both fit for me. Planets on the cusps of houses I think are "Cuspy" anyway. The house becomes more potent midway I find. If you think of it like a colour wheel. Where the colour changes are at the cusps and gets more intense as you go to the middle.

[flea]

I have BML in aquarius along with Juno and Pallas with 2 deg orbs sextile my sun in sag. Venus is aquarius too right on my MC. So being so prominent in my tenth they have interested me. So there is a tonne of feminine energy in my 10th house, with cancer moon in 2nd that talks to me about archetypal females.

I am not a girly girl, but gentle sensitive and intuitive, but strong backbone none the less. I have worked in quite a male dominated work area which is changing. Lots of different attitudes to women... but I do seem to be a kind of avatar onto which men project their ideas of what women are. Has at time been really tough.... going into meeting s can have different results.... i can hold a room of men sorting out issues organising etc then theere can be meetings where men take over and not expect a woman to speak just listen. Anyway it is stuff that I am up close and personal with.

Maybe there is a journey for me here in valuing my own femininity within society and finding a place where that is accepted as it is rather than having opinions thrust upon my roles.

Oh, I do remember my mum refused to have obey in her marriage vows! Now that is a bit Lilith, and she was very encouraging of us girls having careers and earning our way.

FleaXX