The Twelfth House

RaptInReverie

Well-known member
Twelthnight,

I absolutely agree. Service is an honor befitting of a developed soul. The ego wants fame and glory for itself, but a true leader is a servant to other people.
 
Yes! I feel like we all are just seeking alignment with our souls purpose. When that is service to mankind, it is a beautiful thing, an essential thing. Just as expression through each house and sign is essential. I like to just totally inhabit my own reality and not really compare.
 

SniperBomber328

Well-known member
You have not answered the original question I proposed: Why, without considering any one else's opinions, do you believe that the twelfth house is akin to sorrow and self-destruction? Your entire argument is based upon this premise, yet you haven't supported it with a satisfactory theoretical explanation or evidence obtained from your own practical application of astrology. We can not ascertain anything about planets here until we first establish an intrinsic definition of this house--one that isn't paradoxical or inapplicable.

The accusation of me making an A=B=C statement was due to another member misconstruing my post. The exact words I used were "corresponds to", which does not necessarily mean "equivalent to". I certainly do not believe that the signs are "equivalent to" the houses, but I do recognize correspondences between the two.

Twelthnight,

I absolutely agree. Service is an honor befitting of a developed soul. The ego wants fame and glory for itself, but a true leader is a servant to other people.


I'm not going to ascertain or add presumptions on the 12th House, nor' make any general opinions of my "vision" of the 12th, since I think it isn't relevant to the point I'm trying to imply here. I was simply trying to state how and why the ancients viewed the 12th House, and why it is the way it is.

The closest I can get to using an example -without using another persons chart- would be to use my own chart. I have both Jupiter and Venus in the 12th Libra (with Venus sextiling my MC). I can't say my life has been rough, but it wasn't pleasant either. And I'm not a spiritual person, as so many have indicated here. Perhaps 'charity work' or 'philanthropism' would be good for myself and others, but I haven't yet to feel that way about such things.

Though one thing I have read, and noticed myself (from looking at famous people's charts) is that people who have planets in the 12th usually have good careers (and I mean real good to famous good). Perhaps this has to do with the 12th aspecting the MC and the 10th.
 

Carris

Well-known member
Sniperbomber

You are interpreting spirituality incorrectly.

Planets in the 12th would want to shift your attention towards your soul/spirit and spirituality. So they would try to detach you from the materialistic world. When you say that "life hasn't been pleasant" for you - you mean it in a materialistic worldly point of view. But that is exactly what is required for spiritual development.

We turn to spirituality only after we get fed up of the physical world. We learn/develop love, compassion, kindness and other spiritual 12th qualities - usually only after facing adversities and difficulties in life. If you don't listen to the gentle persuasion of jupiter and venus in 12th then perhaps you may get the harshness of saturn in your 12th in your next life.
 

SniperBomber328

Well-known member
Sniperbomber

You are interpreting spirituality incorrectly.

Planets in the 12th would want to shift your attention towards your soul/spirit and spirituality. So they would try to detach you from the materialistic world. When you say that "life hasn't been pleasant" for you - you mean it in a materialistic worldly point of view. But that is exactly what is required for spiritual development.

We turn to spirituality only after we get fed up of the physical world. We learn/develop love, compassion, kindness and other spiritual 12th qualities - usually only after facing adversities and difficulties in life. If you don't listen to the gentle persuasion of jupiter and venus in 12th then perhaps you may get the harshness of saturn in your 12th in your next life.

I never said life wasn't pleasant for me materialistically. Life just hasn't been 'spiritually' or 'emotionaly' stable for me through the years. Also I don't have Saturn in the 12th, rather in the 4th Aquarius, Trine my Jupiter.

Though I don't think learning from past mistakes and becoming better from them would be technicaly called 'spirituality'. More like common sense and the ability to comprehend when enough is enough.

Note: I don't really want to make this about me considering I don't want to stray from the Ops topic. I posted to answer the questions that the OP had. Any other conversations can be continued either through PM or another board.
 

waybread

Well-known member
The earliest surviving long treatise on Hellenistic astrology is Manilius, Astronomica, from the early part of the first century AD. His comment on the 12th house is pretty par for the course in the rest of traditional astrology:

"The temple that is immediately above the horoscope [Asc or 1st house]... is a temple of ill omen, hostile to future activity and all too fruitful of bane; nor that alone, but like unto it will prove the abode which with confronting star shines below the occident [Dsc or 7th house] and adjacent to it [6th house.]"

He goes on to explain that these cadent houses have fallen away from the angles, which were seen as powerful points in the horoscope:

"Each shall be a portal of toil: in one you are doomed to climb, in the other to fall.... With justice are they held to be the dread abodes of Typhon...."

Typhon was an evil god or giant of storms: the root of our word "typhoon." Typhon was interpreted as the god Seth in ancient Egypt, another storm god, the enemy of the gods Re (sun) and Osiris (regeneration principle).
 

Carris

Well-known member
The earliest surviving long treatise on Hellenistic astrology is Manilius, Astronomica, from the early part of the first century AD. His comment on the 12th house is pretty par for the course in the rest of traditional astrology:

"The temple that is immediately above the horoscope [Asc or 1st house]... is a temple of ill omen, hostile to future activity and all too fruitful of bane; nor that alone, but like unto it will prove the abode which with confronting star shines below the occident [Dsc or 7th house] and adjacent to it [6th house.]"

He goes on to explain that these cadent houses have fallen away from the angles, which were seen as powerful points in the horoscope:

"Each shall be a portal of toil: in one you are doomed to climb, in the other to fall.... With justice are they held to be the dread abodes of Typhon...."

Typhon was an evil god or giant of storms: the root of our word "typhoon." Typhon was interpreted as the god Seth in ancient Egypt, another storm god, the enemy of the gods Re (sun) and Osiris (regeneration principle).
I'm so tired of repeating this - Are we still living in the dark ages? If I was living in the dark ages, I probably would have definitely faced those descriptions of the 12th.

Deleted by moderator ~ Members can NOT dictate the direction that others may answer on the forum, not even the OP
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Carris, there is no need to attempt to silence anyone! My post was directed at anyone who apparently didn't realize why we have this 12th house tradition. I finally got around to looking up one of the early sources.

I didn't post by way of saying everybody should agree with Manilius or that he got it right. If you read my previous posts, you will see that I have a very modern take on the 12th house.

The Manilius quote was for information purposes only.

Also, as you know, the OPer doesn't really own or control a thread. Others are free to go off in their own direction so long as it isn't a complete digression.
 

Anachiel

Well-known member
OK, here is a personal experience and (off topic) why I find natal astrology lacking, whether it be modern or traditional or personal: When it comes to most people's charts, they simply aren't that spectacular, just like their lives aren't that unique either. They are neither astoundingly great nor astoundingly terrible. They work, marry, have ordeals, get sick, get better, age and die with perhaps a few surprizes in between but, certainly nothing that would stand out as unusual or extreme with the test of time or relative to most any other person.

For the most part, most people, even you with your Saturn in the 12th, are ordinary folks going through the same ordinary life events that every one else is. A few question the spirituallity behind it, others question the fairness of it all, most question little, if at all.

Then there are the few, usually the one's that astrologers froth at the mouth to see their charts, that do have interesting, traumatic or otherwise unque personalities and/or events that happen(ed) to them. Do most of us know any of these people? I don't know but I wager the answer is probably not.

All the people I have seen that have any natal planet in the 12th do not appear or seem or live any different then any of the other people that do not have a planet in the 12th. Why is this? Well, because it is only one piece of the puzzle, it is not the whole picture. Personally, I couldn't tell you one thing that stands out between all the people with planets in the 12th any more than I could tell you what stands out about all the people with NO planets in the 12th. But, again, these are all ordinary people.

I might be wrong but, I don't think anyone else can personally and definitively tell you the difference either. We can only observe, like yourself, what seems to jive with the books and what doesn't and, when it comes to the 12th house, natally, I agree with you; there is something missing. That I can tell you definitely and personally.
 

poyi

Premium Member
Just some thoughts...

Since 12th house represent hospital and institution. It is not always mean that you will go to jail. Having lot of planets in one house may only means that is the highlight of your life, an area most attention and energy located.

Why no one think about most of the elderly become unwell and spend most of the time at hospital or nursing home during their old age. Some of my patients go to nursing at the age of 40s till they dead. I don't mean that 12th doesn't represent spiritual matter. But I believe, there are many meanings behind each house.

I worked as a nurse. I see too many cases. Not by looking at their natal charts just simply by common senses. Hospital and nursing home are really like jail.

Sometime, I believe that certain characters of the house won't show it face till certain triggers or timing or environmental factors appeared to the native. I believe that might be a period of silence for such house or not yet being activated. But these are just my thoughts. But I seriously think that really does make some sense.
 
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sandstone

Banned
poyi

astrology is about cycles whether it be the signs or the houses or the motion of the planets.. the motion is sometimes going in both directions and the starting point is arbitrary, and there really is no beginning and no ending, lol.. the drama is in the beginnings and endings and getting caught up on that part..
 

poyi

Premium Member
poyi

astrology is about cycles whether it be the signs or the houses or the motion of the planets.. the motion is sometimes going in both directions and the starting point is arbitrary, and there really is no beginning and no ending, lol.. the drama is in the beginnings and endings and getting caught up on that part..


What I mean is the beginning of the physical life-Ascendant and the end of the physical life and wonder if 12th is the one that represents it. The links that I posted in my last thread have mention about this idea.

My thoughts basically come from the same idea between the relationship of North node, south node and AC vs DC. In symbolic meaning the chart itself is a circle or cycle. I am not God and can't tell you past life or after life. I simply don't have the knowledge nor personal experiences to tell anyone. I even have doubt of people saying this represent after life/past life/next life. Cause there is no SOLID FACT here to proof to me those theories. When theories have not yet to be proven, to me they are forever theories. Personally, I believe there is God and eternal spirit. But without COLD HARD FACT, I won't say so. Even the existence of God to some people is a question.

However, I enjoy reading conversations regarding those theories and not against people talk about them. But technicality there is no evidence to support so therefore not intended to put that into practice....

Is fun talking about these and I agree with you that certain things have no ending and the meaning of ending itself is a mystery!

For example, the word that you say, the sound that you made for that word it's own wave and frequency will forever remain in the universe although you no longer hear it.
 

Carris

Well-known member
Waybread

I'm not attempting to silence anyone - I just want some relevance of thoughts to our experience of the 12th house - in these times. Such information, knowledge and discussions would not have been possible in the dark ages and that is probably why those "astrologers" could get away with their gloom-and-doom nonsense.

"Why does the 12th have such a negative reputation?" - by that I mean even today, when large scale astrological research is possible.

I guess someone who does not not have a prominent 12th will not be able to understand what I'm trying to say about it - in terms of soul/spirit/spirituality, NOT religion, dogma or philosophy. A materialistic person would view the 12th as adversity (example: "He's so stupid, he resigned from that well-paying job!") - he would not be appreciate the real, eternal treasure of spiritual qualities that often accompany the 12th experience.
 
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Carris

Well-known member
anachiel,

the 12th house is the area where a planet comes up from below the horizon and becomes a part of the sky, whether it be day or night. i think this astro-physical event is significant and i think for this reason the 12th house is an interesting one to attempt to understand better. personally i have my moon about 5 degrees above the ascendant degree in the same sign as the ascendant.. neptune is about 29 degrees above the horizon. when i first learned astrology, like most folks, i adopted the house system of the time and was told my moon was in the 12th and neptune in the 11th - placidus.. i have had over 30 years to think about this. along the way i gravitated to equal house system, which shares much with whole sign houses which i discovered about 10 years ago. i think my moon is more 1st then 12th, and one could present the 5% rule to explain this, but i mostly think it has to do with being in the same sign as the ascendant.. however, i still consider these 12th house themes being discussed and contemplate how this position terrestrially might have some bearing on what i have to work with.

you are right that we generally don't lead spectacular lives, but i think this is for the most part a very good thing.. life is an interesting journey either way and we all try to make the most of it and for whatever reason find ourselves drawn to astrology for any number of reasons.. for me it is gaining a better insight on myself and who and why i feel and think in the unique way that i do.. i think everyone does too for that matter. acceptance for who we are and for how we are different might be my way of trying to merge in the ocean of humanity, i can't say for sure, but i think we all resonate with this on some level, and perhaps those with 12th house placements a little more strongly. thanks for your note.
Sandstone

The moon and neptune were already risen on the eastern horizon when you took your first breath? Before your birth you were still in the 12th/soul/spirit form - so I think planets here represent the importance of the soul/spirit state. The 1st house (and therefore physical earthly life) would start only after you took your first breath.

How do these planets work in your life? How do you experience them? Does the moon's qualities, i.e. emotions, feelings, instinctive responses, etc work in a spiritual way? Do you feel an innate sense of oneness with all creation? Love, compassion, forgiveness, service, kindness, morals, ethics, principles, and other spiritual qualities should be innate and instinctive in such a person. While my saturn had to thrash these qualities into me, your moon would make these quite innate and you would feel very comfortable with them. Do you have a great, all-consuming interest in studying, exploring, contemplating and introspecting about spirituality? I do. And I find this shift to a spiritual focus quite SPECTACULAR in my life - non 12th people won't be able to understand this.

The moon is supposed to be where you feel at home and where you go to rest - do you need a certain amount of seclusion to recharge? The Gacquelin research found that moon in 12th indicates writers - are you a writer/author? They also found that saturn in 12th indicates a scientist - well I do like to study and research a lot and even my work requires it.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Carris, as I said above, the OPer doesn't own or control a thread. On most threads of any length or interest, you will find people posting about their own particular interest in the broader issues raised by the thread's general theme. I guess the old-timers here are used to it. My best advice for anyone who doesn't like my posts, is just ignore them.

Regarding Hellenistic astrology (indeed, the European Dark Ages were the heyday of Arab astrology): if the 12th house really has a spiritual component, as you suggest in your OP, it may be that some 12th-house people turn to contemplation and acceptance of What-Is through fully experiencing and accepting life's difficulties. Most mystical teachings indicate that one has to let go of one's ego and its jockeying for position, if we are to manifest spirituality in our lives.

I have one planet in the 12th house. I would say it fits one reading of the 12th house, that the operating mode of planets here may be inivisble to the native, although everyone else can see their operation fully!

My daughter has her sun-Mercury in the 12th, with a strong 12th-6th house axis. I think she experiences the 12th as the traditional "house of self-undoing." She is not a self-promoter, yet she tends to resent people who get more in their lives with less talent than she's got, and less effort than she expends. She has the capacity to be extremely selfless, and is now doing very well in a post-graduate program for a service type of career.

I've spent some time looking at charts of notable mystics and religious people to see whether they have strong 12th houses, Some do, some don't. So here's just a little modern history, and then a recap.

The 12th had a rotten reputation until modern astrology emerged from traditional astrology's ashes, in the late 19th century. Like you, these "new" astrologers were totally turned off by the doom-and-gloom mentality of a lot of traditional astrology. They were also seriously into mysticism. So then the 12th got a hugely boosted reputation that it possibly didn't deserve. As the "last" house it had to be the pinnacle of human evolution. Because some well-known religious folks had strong 12th houses, this had to be the house par excellence of spirituality. This kind of demoted the 9th house to focusing merely on long-distance travel. I don't know if it's still there, but there was a New Age book store in Denver called The Twelfth House. Twelfth house was good.

Starting about 20 years ago, there was a big resurgence of interest in traditional astrology. You see this with some of our members. To them, the "Dark Ages" weren't "in the dark" but were a rigorous alternative to what they see as Astrology Lite in today's woo-woo modern astrology. They would argue that sometimes life does reek. Bad things do happen to good people. We shouldn't try to paper over harsh realities, and the 12th house is one that can indicate something about how they appear for us. Yet even in traditional astrology, there can be mitigating circumstances for 12th house placements.

To recap:

1. Bad things do happen to good people. Somethings we need to let go and accept life as it comes. Ideally, by letting go of our egos (sun in the 12th) we can open up to deeper realities.

2. Some people are hospitalized, imprisioned, institutionalized, or shut-in in some way. The 12th house rules them. Twelfth housers don't have to be like this, but they might benefit from working with such people.

3. "Your best friends won't tell you, but ..... " Sometimes parts of ourselves are hidden territory to us, yet they are highly visible to others. Any 12th house planets can indicate what these are.

In this "house of self undoing" perhaps Mars doesn't function with normal assertiveness and the person copes with low self-esteem. She doesn't quite understand that she doesn't need to see herself as inferior to other people, even though they wish she would come out of her shell more often. Someone with Saturn in the 12th might not see himself as bossy or super-critical, but this is how he might appear to others.

4. Did Mom have a difficult labour and delivery? An overwhelming sense of responsibility or inadequacy after you were born? An afflicted 12th house planet might indicate this.

5. Was Dad either physically absent from the child's life, or emotionally distant and seldom home? Saturn in the 12th can indicate this.

6. Can you identify with a cause or group of people bigger than yourself? This is an excellent use of a 12th house sun. You see this with 12 house sun politicians. If someone has a strong 12 house axis, they are said to have a "serve or suffer" lifetime. For example, a teacher might strongly identify (sun) with the good of her students, her school, or subject area.

7. 12th house people (as well as 8th and 4th house people) tend to enjoy working behind-the-scenes. It's as though planets here don't enjoy being in the spotlight. If other chart indicators suggest that the person is a raging extrovert with more Lion or Ram than the Brooklyn zoo, dedicating themselves to a higher cause (which they can lead) is usually a way to satisfy both the 12th house and the more publicity-seeking parts of their chart.
 

poyi

Premium Member
To Sandstone

I agree with you that it is hard to distinguish the absolute end that is why I used the example of sound wave forever remaining in the universe although it can not be heard by us for the limitation of my our ears. It can also be applied to many other things.

I myself don't have any planet in the 12th house, but highly involved with hospital since I actually work there!!! Although I don't have any planet there, since primary school without much religious background I always know of the existence of The high being. I can see the oneness of the universe just by looking at the sky and the relations of all things working together just to achieve the same goal-SURVIVAL. The QUESTION, the meaning of life came to me when I was only 6-7 years old while I am speaking of these matter without any planet in my 12th house.

The mechanism of the human heart and all the organs work together just to keep that person alive all in automatic model....I can see that all sufferings lead to higher and lower meanings and most of the time human chose to see the lower meaning because it is easier path for the physical body.

I can see that all things come in pairs, the light/darkness, the good/evil, the transformation/destruction..as well as the physical body/spiritual psychic all these matters.....both co-existed and constantly at war but yet there is balance between them.
 

poyi

Premium Member
Regarding to 4/8/12 houses:

The other thing is I don't have any planet after the fifth house for I have Scorpio Stellium, all planets located between 1st to 5th houses. But totally no other planets after 6th to 12th.

I do have Jupiter Sagittarius conjunct IC, opposite True Node, MC and Vertex in Gemini. In term of how to read a native rather is spiritual or not, I believe that there are many variations and exceptions. I have seen some people all their lives only concentrated on material things, while certain events occurred in their lives, the TRIGGER, activated their higher self. The spiritual part of each person is always there but personally, I believe the TRIGGER will bring it out to the surface at different time for each individual.

As my teacher said, look at the whole chart but not one house or one planet alone...by talking about these, I learned a lot as well. Thank you for the thread to allow me to talk about this. :cool:
 

poyi

Premium Member
Carris, as I said above, the OPer doesn't own or control a thread. On most threads of any length or interest, you will find people posting about their own particular interest in the broader issues raised by the thread's general theme. I guess the old-timers here are used to it. My best advice for anyone who doesn't like my posts, is just ignore them.

Regarding Hellenistic astrology (indeed, the European Dark Ages were the heyday of Arab astrology): if the 12th house really has a spiritual component, as you suggest in your OP, it may be that some 12th-house people turn to contemplation and acceptance of What-Is through fully experiencing and accepting life's difficulties. Most mystical teachings indicate that one has to let go of one's ego and its jockeying for position, if we are to manifest spirituality in our lives.

I have one planet in the 12th house. I would say it fits one reading of the 12th house, that the operating mode of planets here may be inivisble to the native, although everyone else can see their operation fully!

My daughter has her sun-Mercury in the 12th, with a strong 12th-6th house axis. I think she experiences the 12th as the traditional "house of self-undoing." She is not a self-promoter, yet she tends to resent people who get more in their lives with less talent than she's got, and less effort than she expends. She has the capacity to be extremely selfless, and is now doing very well in a post-graduate program for a service type of career.

I've spent some time looking at charts of notable mystics and religious people to see whether they have strong 12th houses, Some do, some don't. So here's just a little modern history, and then a recap.

The 12th had a rotten reputation until modern astrology emerged from traditional astrology's ashes, in the late 19th century. Like you, these "new" astrologers were totally turned off by the doom-and-gloom mentality of a lot of traditional astrology. They were also seriously into mysticism. So then the 12th got a hugely boosted reputation that it possibly didn't deserve. As the "last" house it had to be the pinnacle of human evolution. Because some well-known religious folks had strong 12th houses, this had to be the house par excellence of spirituality. This kind of demoted the 9th house to focusing merely on long-distance travel. I don't know if it's still there, but there was a New Age book store in Denver called The Twelfth House. Twelfth house was good.

Starting about 20 years ago, there was a big resurgence of interest in traditional astrology. You see this with some of our members. To them, the "Dark Ages" weren't "in the dark" but were a rigorous alternative to what they see as Astrology Lite in today's woo-woo modern astrology. They would argue that sometimes life does reek. Bad things do happen to good people. We shouldn't try to paper over harsh realities, and the 12th house is one that can indicate something about how they appear for us. Yet even in traditional astrology, there can be mitigating circumstances for 12th house placements.

To recap:

1. Bad things do happen to good people. Somethings we need to let go and accept life as it comes. Ideally, by letting go of our egos (sun in the 12th) we can open up to deeper realities.

2. Some people are hospitalized, imprisioned, institutionalized, or shut-in in some way. The 12th house rules them. Twelfth housers don't have to be like this, but they might benefit from working with such people.

3. "Your best friends won't tell you, but ..... " Sometimes parts of ourselves are hidden territory to us, yet they are highly visible to others. Any 12th house planets can indicate what these are.

In this "house of self undoing" perhaps Mars doesn't function with normal assertiveness and the person copes with low self-esteem. She doesn't quite understand that she doesn't need to see herself as inferior to other people, even though they wish she would come out of her shell more often. Someone with Saturn in the 12th might not see himself as bossy or super-critical, but this is how he might appear to others.

4. Did Mom have a difficult labour and delivery? An overwhelming sense of responsibility or inadequacy after you were born? An afflicted 12th house planet might indicate this.

5. Was Dad either physically absent from the child's life, or emotionally distant and seldom home? Saturn in the 12th can indicate this.

6. Can you identify with a cause or group of people bigger than yourself? This is an excellent use of a 12th house sun. You see this with 12 house sun politicians. If someone has a strong 12 house axis, they are said to have a "serve or suffer" lifetime. For example, a teacher might strongly identify (sun) with the good of her students, her school, or subject area.

7. 12th house people (as well as 8th and 4th house people) tend to enjoy working behind-the-scenes. It's as though planets here don't enjoy being in the spotlight. If other chart indicators suggest that the person is a raging extrovert with more Lion or Ram than the Brooklyn zoo, dedicating themselves to a higher cause (which they can lead) is usually a way to satisfy both the 12th house and the more publicity-seeking parts of their chart.


Waybread

I love reading your thread and I agree with you all you said in this post. There are many form of imprisonment:

People in nursing home, hospital those are being trapped in a location.

People with Stroke, Parkinson, other kind of disability relating to the flesh are being trapped in their own physical body for lost of control.

People with psychiatric problem such as the well know depression are being trapped by their emotions.

People with intellectual disability are being trapped in their mind for unable to control or achieve their ability of the mind.

People can also be trapped by their sin, guiltiness trap them or block them for being the best self.

Some of these are obvious to yourself and other some of these are not obvious at all and you might even enjoy being diagnosed with depression so people come to you with more love and empathy, some remained their act of sin and enjoy the excitement that gives them. Feeling guilty of doing so is one of the excitement just my personal observation.
 
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