Cause of death - natural or foul play?

freedomlover

Well-known member
I was recently informed of the shocking death of a young woman - let's call her Jillian. Jillian was staying in the home of a dear friend of mine. Her mother was my friend's best friend since childhood. Jillian and her mother lived in my friend's home. But I'm sure Jillian would be counted as a direct friend of my friend, as she had lived with her and been treated as part of her family for about a year, I think.

I had been trying to phone my friend for the past several days, but her phone was disconnected. So I called another mutual friend who lived nearby, and she informed me of Jillian's tragic death. She told me that these were the circumstances surrounding her death, as she knew them:

Jillian lived in a one-room apartment adjoining the back porch. She came into the home for meals and bathroom use, etc. She was last seen when she came and got a plate of food one evening. After about 24 hours with no one seeing her come in to the house, her mother went out to the apartment and found her dead. She was laying across the bed and rigor mortis had already set in. Her plate was nearby. ( I had the impression that it still had food on it - but I'm not entirely sure on that point.)

Jillian was 33 years old and apparently healthy. She had had knee surgery in the previous months, but other than that...... An autopsy was performed, but the coroner was unable to determine a cause of death.

I was thinking about this as I was going to sleep, and thinking how everyone was just accepting that her death was a mystery. It suddenly hit me - What WAS her cause of death? and at the same time the thought went through my mind that foul play may have been involved. I will also say that I wondered if a specific person was behind it. I used to live with my friend, and a person who has made themselves my enemy used to cause problems for me when I lived there. I had told friends that I was moving back to that area about the time Jillian was found dead - and word gets around. It would have been logical for many to think that I would come to live with my friend again, as her home had been a base for me on and off for several years. I know that this person who has made themselves my enemy would very much like to see me dead. I surely hope it wasn't a case of mistaken identity. And then again....... maybe it was just a bizarre natural death.

Would anyone like to apply their horary skills towards solving this mystery?


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I will attempt to use my very, very feeble knowledge of horary. I am assuming that since I am the querent, I would be signified by the 1st house? So, using traditional planets, my significator would be Mars in Cap in 2nd? I'm also assuming that my friend would be in the 11th house - so, the ruler of Virgo - Mercury, which is in Aquarius in the 3rd house. So, Jillian, being her friend, would be 11 houses from the 3rd? If I'm counting correctly, that makes her the 1st, which is Scorpio - so Mars again? That would make me asking the question, and the deceased as having the same significator? I really don't have any idea where to proceed with the reading from here. I have not had a chance to study horary yet. What I know, I know from following the readings on the forum.

Thanks in advance to all who are willing to help.
 
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freedomlover

Well-known member
A little bumping up......

I realized I forgot to put the instructions for viewing the chart on this post. So I went back and edited it. I remembered that, in the past, I had been told by some people that they had had trouble viewing the chart.... so I thought it would be best if I put the instructions on it. I had noticed this post had had quite a few views, but no responses - thought that this issue might have contributed to it.
 

freedomlover

Well-known member
Aw... C'mon - 35 views to date, and no one wants to give it a try?

Could somebody at least let me know if I got the basic significators right?
 

Themis

Well-known member
hi freedom lover, i follow this tread to learn how horary astrologers say on this question. but i notice that the way that you pose the question might not be so convenient for horary astrologers to give an answer. If you want to ask "whether the death is natural" or "whether the death is foul play?" then i think a yes or no anwser might be easier. though very limited by my horary knowledge, i saw that the ASC is in a zone called" via combusta", and very debilited Saturn conjonct MC. i feel the ambience of this chart is very dark. and i don't think many astrologers want to venture into this judgement. but knowing this is a question about "death", i think it just legitimate that the ASC is in via combustia. as to the house which signifies Jilian, i really don't know whether you need to turn the chart this way, i think if you know her somehow, even just an aquaitance, she could be represented by the radix 11th. that's what i can say for the time being, i wait to learn from others as well...best, Themis
 

freedomlover

Well-known member
Themis,

I didn't know that the question had to be phrased so that the answer would come out "yes" or "no". I thought I had seen horaries where much more information could be extracted from the chart than just that. I guess the main question I'm wanting to know is if there was foul play involved - outside extenuating circumstances that contributed to her death. Although, if not, I would like to know, as well, what the physical cause was, as the coroner could not find one.

I don't think she could be signified as my friend, because I have never met her. I knew her mother as an acquaintance. The lady whose house she was living in when she died (also her friend) was a very good friend of mine. In fact, I used to live in the house with her.
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
I was thinking that we wouldn't have to turn the chart. Using Jillian as an undefined (since she really had no connection to you) seventh house matter may prove best. In this manner -traditionally-, she becomes Venus in the fourth. Not knowing really anything about Jillian, I can't really say whether Venus fits her, but being that the fourth house is a house of endings, and she was found dead in her home (another fourth house significator) I think this at least makes sense.
 

wintersprite1

Premium Member
I will give it a try, this is a new subject for me....

I am going to work with the advise of Kaiousei no Senshi and use Venus as the Sig. That leaves you, FL as the Sig of the first, Mars.

Mars is not being aspected. There is no connection to Venus. The Moon being your Second Sig is in the 7th (her house) but again with no connection to Venus and the 4th unless you allow for a large orb. The Moon's next Aspect is to Jupiter (well placed in Sag) in an exact opposition. Jupiter fuels the fears of the Moon, but there is again no aspect to Venus.

So, no the death is not connected to you. Looking at her death though, notice the 3rd is filled and from the 3rd moving 8 houses we find the 11th empty of traditional planets. The cusp is Virgo, and Mercury is found in 3rd, Conjunct the IC. The death maybe an affliction of the lungs. It may also be communicatable.

TK
 
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freedomlover

Well-known member
KNS,

I see what you are saying. However, I don't think she and I are totally unconnected, as we had our common friend who owned the house, and I used to live there. I feel strongly connected to her, even though we'd never met, because of my closeness to my friend, and that I knew her mother and thought highly of her. Also, if my suspicions about the foul play are correct, then there definitely is a common thread. Personally I think she should be treated as my friend's friend - or housemate. Is there a separate horary designation for housemate?
 

freedomlover

Well-known member
WinterSprite,

Thanks for the info.

The death maybe an affliction of the lungs. It may also be communicatable.

But if it was a serious enough lung problem to kill her, wouldn't the coroner have noted that on the autopsy?

I'm still not sold on the being totally unconnected to her part, so therefore not sure that she should be signified by the 7th. Especially since I still feel like it is a home away from home for me. My friend is an older lady and is like a mother to me. My driver's license still shows that house as my address.
 

freedomlover

Well-known member
I think the first key is to accurately determine what my relationship is to the deceased. Again, I did not know her personally. However, she did answer the phone a couple of times when I called to talk to my friend. So we did have some slight conversation, like: " Is ***** there?" "No, she's at work right now." I was aware of her and she was aware of me. Our mutual connection was our friend. Does this make her an acquaintance, since she and I have spoken on the phone a couple of times? We weren't total strangers, I guess. Also, I still kind of consider that a second home. I've been in and out of there for a few years.

This is what Themis wrote, as well:
i think if you know her somehow, even just an aquaitance, she could be represented by the radix 11th.

I'm just not sure if speaking on the phone a couple of times qualifies as meeting. Does "meeting" have to be in person?

Again, she was my friend's housemate, so is there a different siginificator for a housemate than for a friend who does not live with you?

I would like to try using some different approaches for the significators than the one KNS and Wintersprite used, just to see what comes up, and if anything starts ringing some bells. I'm not saying that approach was wrong. I certainly don't know horary. However, I do know it strongly depends on using the correct significators that apply to the situation.

Thanks again to all for your help.

Any other thoughts as to what that makes us all, significator-wise?
 
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Hi, Here's what I got, you’ll have to bare with me here. I am using your friends turned 7th for the housemate, which makes you both mars in 2nd, confirming the both of you being housemates of your friend. Just for fun, I turned the chart again, the 6th (health) from the 2nd (mars). The 8th has Gemini and mercury would bump up to the 4th house (end of life). Gemini/merc represents *respiratory or breathing*, and mercury applies an opposition to Saturn…*delays* in Leo…the *heart*. Also, mercury, *brain* is in Aquarius, *circulatory system*, or lack of oxygen to the brain. I would rule out foul play as Saturn makes a trine to Pluto, also in the 2nd. I am thinking a respiratory disorder may be more likely. This could be anything from an infection, sleep apnea, bradycardia, or something along those lines. Saturn in the 10th represents authority figures and from what I understand “denies honor”. I think it was overlooked because it also opposes Neptune (not seeing clearly). Keep us posted. If you hear anything let us know.
 

Themis

Well-known member
hi freedom lover, you are right that almost every serious quesion can be answered by horary as far as i know. i just thought that a "yes" or "no" question could be quicker to reach an answer. in the way that you posed this quesiton though, i still stick to the 11th for Jillian, thus Mercury at IC of this chart might suit her since she is dead (end of life). her 4th---her end of life is radix 2th, in Sag. and signified by Jupiter. Jupiter is in his proper sign and sits on the 4th cusp. of Jillian. In addition, the POF of the chart is at the exaltation degree of Jupiter as well. with Jupiter i don't have the impression that the end of Jillian is caused by some "foul" hands. Jupiter is everything but foul, isn't it? Mercury is in opposition to Saturn (the significator of the turned 6th house of Jillian), this might indicate that indeed Jillian was really ill. the opposition is almost perfect. therefore for me this chart means a death of diesease of some kind, Saturn debilited make me think of a long and chronic disease. but with my limited knowledge i can' decide which one. these are just my humbles thoughts. i will continue to learn from other astrologers, in the mean time may God bless Jillian. best, Themis
 

2rainbows

Well-known member
Hi Free,
I've been following this. i feel safe to conclude, it was a natural death.
is Jillian on the young side? if so, i would lead to the idea of death by choking. all this despite the autopsy report. and i say thank God for Neptune.
2rainbows
 

freedomlover

Well-known member
Thank you, Virgo96019, Themis, and 2Rainbows, for your replies.

Apparently, it is something the coroner missed. I hope to get to talk to my friend, whose home Jillian died in, later this week. If she knows anything more than our mutual friend did about Jillian's health, etc, prior to her death, I will post it for you.

Oh, I did remember our mutual friend saying that the only thing that the family could come up with that may have contributed in some way was the medication she was taking after her knee surgery possibly causing her to throw a clot to the brain or something. But they were just guessing. However, would that fit the indicators you described, Virgo96019?

But, just out of curiosity, if the "foul" stuff was witchcraft, voodoo, black magic, etc - and that contributed to her death in some way - where would that show up in the chart? I'm assuming the indicators would be very different than those showing something physically done to her.

To:Themis
Yeah, I finally decided that we were at least phone acquaintances, so that would be 11th house, right?

To :2Rainbows
Yeah, she was on the young side. As I posted in the beginning of this thread, she was only 33. Choking might also fit what Virgo96018 came up with, along with Wintersprite's - both something with the respiratory system.

Again, thanks to all of you for your help!
 

Themis

Well-known member
freedomlover said:
To:Themis
Yeah, I finally decided that we were at least phone acquaintances, so that would be 11th house, right?

hi freedom lover, to tell the truth, i was really split in choosing between 11th and 7th as significator for Julian. in reading more closely the chart, i found the applying aspect of Mercury oppo. Saturn is the closest aspect of the chart, and Saturn is the natural ruler of death. i already weighed Mercury. i am conscious that you don't know Jillian much, but i can sense that you think about her deeply. 11th house is also the house of trust, joyed by Jupiter, i kind of think that this act that you posed such a question for her has some larger meanings, Jullian might have somehow touched you, there is some kind of sympathy and compassion inside. so i decided to use the 11th since 7th, for me, lacks this kind of "spiritual" or "higher" feeling. in any case, that's just my own opinion. here is a lind of Deborah Houldings on houses, http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h11.html, i found it excellent. i also tried to look in CA, but never found out how an aquaitance can be signified. I think it all depends on the relationship between the querent and the quesited person in the choice of 7th or 11th.Themis
 

freedomlover

Well-known member
Themis,

I feel pretty comfortable in the use of the 11th as her significator. It 's odd, though, that WinterSprite got pretty much the same answer using the 7th.

Thanks so much for the link. That's exactly the kind of site I was hoping to find, as I don't have any books with that kind of information in them ( and currently no funds to purchase any.)

You are right that I feel very connected to Jillian's death. I am still trying to get my bearings on it.

i kind of think that this act that you posed such a question for her has some larger meanings
You hit the nail right on the head with that one, Themis! I still feel this incident is part of a bigger picture.

To All:

I spoke with another mutual friend last night. She was called to come right after they discovered Jillian's body. She said she had the strong impression that there was more to it than met the eye. She also said something about an autopsy that would take 6 weeks - and that in her opinion something must be suspected or they wouldn't do that. I still haven't got to speak with my friend whose home Jillian died in. Again, I'm hoping I can later this week. I should be able to get some definite facts from her.

Again, I'm very curious about how witchcraft, voodoo, black magic, etc would show up in a chart. I know this is a very unconventional question, but maybe very relevant. Does anybody have any ideas?
 

2rainbows

Well-known member
i was having a think about this thread last night and came up with some narrowing ideas.
can anyone check and see about interpretations of lillith in regards to the horary chart?
and also to focus on the planets which influence differing parts of the body, throat, heart, brain, stomach, etc.
and i feel there must be celestial bodies out there that can give clearer answers concerning black magic.
i really hope this was not a case of foul play, black magic, voodoo or anything like it.
i've also been watching quite a bit of House these days and wonder if choking happened simultaneously with some other physical occurrence? death by choking all on its own does not make any sense to me, we have gag reflexes, the ability to regurgitate, cough, swallow, etc, etc.
come on my psychic friends!, we can get to the bottom of this one!
2rainbows
 

freedomlover

Well-known member
Thanks for taking an extra interest in this, 2rainbows!

I thought it was interesting that you should mention Lilith.

I also did a private chart with the "Name" asteroids of the key people involved.

I know, I know, asteroids, let alone "name" asteroids, mean nothing in horary.
However, I have been working with them for several months, and I find their synchronicity absolutely amazing. I don't believe they have any special meaning or significance in a generalized way. But if you treat them as simply synchronicity showing you details according to what they mean to you, they can be amazingly accurate.

After having said all of that... the exact conjunctions of the names involved were absolutely astounding in this chart.

The person's name I suspect as having to do with the foul play involved (by black magic/voodoo) was exactly conjunct the Ascendant.

My name and the last name of my friend in whose house they all lived were exactly conjunct.

Jillian's real name was exactly conjunct Lilith!

I find these synchronicities too amazing to brush them off. Also, all these coming together were only possible pretty much in the time period I asked the question. I checked a day later, and the exact conjunctions had already started to separate.
 

freedomlover

Well-known member
I told you I would post some more information after I spoke with my friend.

Jillian was found dead around 5:40pm on January 3, 2007. The coroner said she had been dead for approximately 12 hours at that time. The autopsy is supposed to be completed by early March.

If anyone would like to do a chart on this, let me know, and I will PM you the location information. I don't have her natals, but I do have the exact natal information of the person who found her, if that would shed any light on anything. I can provide this by PM, as well.
 

freedomlover

Well-known member
Sorry for the late report - I was off the forum for a couple of months due to lack of computer access. I told you I would report in with the autopsy results.

It turns out she had a weak heart nobody knew about . Cause of death was some kind of heart failure - and only 33 years old. I still think there may have been some "help" from the dark side in this incident, as I stated earlier in this thread. But heart failure was the "official" cause of death, for anyone who wants to use the question as a horary case study.
 
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