Didn't know where to post this, except I thought here, since Skepticism is a controversial issue, I think.
Anyways, I was reading a few articles like 2 days ago about Astrology for Skeptics, and it got me thinking about a few things. Like for say, I know Skeptics questions how it's possible for the movements of the Celestial Bodies, and how they could possibly affect us here on Earth, which I found to be a constant question and answer (Q&A) on many of these articles.
Here's a good read:
Nelson, John H. "Planetary Position Effect on Short Wave Signal Quality."
Electrical Engineering 71, no. 5 ((May 1952): 421-24.
——. "Shortwave Radio Propagation Correlation with Planetary Positions."
RCA Review 12 (March 1951): 26-34.
"The same heliocentric angular relationships of 0, 90, 180, and 270 degrees were used and dates when any two or more planets were separated by one of these angles were recorded.
Investigation quickly showed there was positive correlation between these planetary angles and transatlantic short-wave signal variations. Radio signals showed a tendency to become degraded within a day or two of planetary configurations of the type being studied.
Considerable study was devoted to the most severe degradations and led to the discovery that when three or more planets held a "multiple of 90 degrees" arrangement among themselves, the correlation was more pronounced. These arrangements were called "multiple configurations" and exist when two planets are a 0 degree with each other and a third planet is 90 degrees or 180 degrees away from them. Also, a multiple exists when two planets are separated by 180 degrees with a third planet 90 degrees from each.
Many of the multiples are completed in a the space of a few hours, being accompanied by sharp severe signal degradation. At other times, the multiple may take several days to pass, being accompanied by generally erratic conditions during the period. The time needed to complete the multiple depends on the relative speeds between the three or more planets involved. These multiples show correlation for plus and minus about 5 degrees from the exact arrangements previously mentioned.
Jupiter and Saturn, the largest planets in the solar system are the most important. Due to their great size and slow motion, they can exercise the predominating influence on the sun for prolonged periods of time or quiet conditions.
Therefore, when Jupiter and Saturn are spaced near any multiple of 90 degrees we should find the most degraded years, with a high percentage of the radio disturbances severe. and therefore establish an over-all standard of disturbed
The records indicate that when Jupiter and Saturn were spaced by a multiple of 60 degrees, radio signals were of better quality than when spaced by multiples of 90 degrees. "[Emphasis mine]
Sorry to rain all over your parade with excerpts from a peer-reviewed scientific professional engineering journal, because that would like inject science into the discussion.
The Planets studied in this article were Moon, Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. The articles says their research showed that when those planets were in "hard aspects" that is, conjunctions, squares and oppositions, there was interference in the electromagnetic spectrum, but when in "soft aspects," that is trines and sextiles, the electromagnetic spectrum was enhanced, and radio signals were of "better quality."
Note that
in very general terms, trines and sextiles are Benefic aspects and conjunctions, squares and oppositions are Malefic aspects.
Are you affected by electromagnetic waves? No? Really? Then why do doctors send patients for an MRI diagnostic test?
MRI, Magnetic Resonance Imaging, is a diagnostic method where the body or body parts are bombarded with electromagnetic radiation which forces the cells in all organs in the body, including muscles, bone and skin tissue to align in a singular direction, and then are imaged.
The type of electromagnetic radiation is in the area of microwaves and short wave radio. Those of you who have been in an MRI machine know that it is very noisy, and it gets very warm. It's the electromagnetic waves that generate the heat.
So, you're not affected by electromagnetic waves? Wrong answer.
Does astrology know how people are affected exactly? No, but Traditional astrologers know that certain placements and aspects can result in "falling sickness," or what you would call epilepsy. That's believed to be caused by an electrical or electro-chemical imbalance in the brain, but they really aren't sure, because science knows practically nothing about the brain in comparison to what could be known in the end. Certain other placements and aspects can result in schizophrenia, which science knows little about, other than the fact that some schizophrenics (but not all) have brain lesions (which are known from MRI scans). And Traditional astrology can identify phrenetics, and frenzies, and severe depression.
It is not simply a "leap of faith" to believe in Traditional astrology. There is supporting evidence, in the form of peer-reviewed scientific engineering journals like the one I quote from.
Maybe one day there will be a scientific explanation, but that day will never come until knowledge of the brain is increased 1000-fold and even more knowledge is learned about the electromagnetic spectrum. For those who don't know, starting on the left side of the electromagnetic spectrum are long waves (like FM radio), then short waves (like AM and HAM radio, and the UHF and VHF areas -- television and certain military and civilian communications especially for aircraft) and cell-phones and cordless phones and then microwaves like radar and your microwave oven, then Infrared, then all of your colors that you see, and then Ultra-Violet and then we get into the nasty things, the x-rays and gamma rays.
Your skeptic's knowledge of astrology almost equals his knowledge of astronomy, which is apparently zero.
What really didn't help was the amount of Contradictments and Debates astrologers have among themselves, more specifically speaking Sidereal, Modern, and Traditional Astrology.
If by Sidereal you mean Vedic, there is no problem there between Vedic and Traditional astrologers. They are two similar, yet different systems, which are actually complimentary, coming to the same conclusions by different means. You'll also notice the Vedic and Traditional astrologers get along well here, probably because they recognize the systems are different yet complimentary, sort of like comparing strawberries and kiwis.
As far as Traditional and Modern astrology, Traditional has been around for 7,000 years, while Modern has been around for 100 or so years and is constantly changing. It's a matter of practicality. A Traditional astrologer delineating the 2nd House will tell you your level of wealth, how you'll achieve that wealth, what period in your life you'll achieve it, and whether you'll keep it, squander or fritter the wealth away, or lose most or all of it in one fell swoop. A Modern astrologer will only tell you how you "feel" about wealth. If you're over 18 years and don't know how you "feel" about wealth, then I'd say you're so far gone that you're beyond the help of astrology (or anything else for that matter).
Most of the Astrology definitons of the planets are based on the Greek's (or Roman's)Mythology, which to say like Venus is the Goddess of Beauty, therefore Venus, in Astrology, rules Beauty. But the question is, when does Ruler of the Arts come in?
Last I checked, in Mythology, Venus, or Aphrodite (In Greek), had nothing to do with the Arts. In fact that was the 9 Muse's realm.
I should know, since I love both Roman and Greek Mythology so much, I practically read so many of the definitions of the Gods and Goddesses of both Greek and Roman Mythology, and so many books based on these.
Prove it.
Modern astrology might associate things with mythology, but Traditional astrology does not. Surely you can find at least one reference that says Venus has the qualities of the Greek/Roman goddess of the same name, right?
Wasn't Ptolemy a Greek? What does he say? Nothing. He talks of the natures of the Planets. Mars is Hot & Dry, while Saturn is Cold & Dry. Do things in nature thrive in such environments? Sure, some plants and animals have adapted to deserts and to the Antarctic, Arctic and Tundra regions, but not many, and certainly not the majority.
Saturn and Mars are Malefics not because, um, the "gods" are malign, but rather because their natures are the antithesis of life.
Jupiter and Venus are Benefics because they are Hot & Moist and Cold & Moist, but not overbearingly so. They are beneficial to life. Where is there the most life on Earth? Jungles and Tropical Rain Forests (Hot & Moist) and in Temperate Climates like Europe and North America (Cold & Moist).
The Moon, Sun and Mercury, well their natures change, the Moon depending on the Quarter, the Sun on the Seasons and Mercury by whichever Planet it's joined with (if any).
You want to know where the Ruler of Arts comes in? Here, I'll quote Bonatti:
"And because Venus is the planet of delight and joy..."
Bonatii doesn't mention "beauty" and neither do Sacredos, Abu Ma'shar or al-Qabisi whom he quotes.
Abu Ma'shar:
"Venus however is benevolent, cold and moist, phlegmatic, moderate, put over women and mothers, waters and riverbanks and younger brothers, clean, showing necklaces of gold and silver and musical instruments and pleasures and joys."
Actually, al-Qabisi does mention "beauty":
"And of assets, what is sought on account of beauty, as are the ornaments of women, and their clothing, and pearls and paintings. And of masteries, what pertains to ornamentation."
Your skeptic doesn't seem to know what he's talking about.
Another thing would be the Jupiter and Pluto, Uranus and Neptune idea. Pluto in Astrology is associated with Death as I can see Hades was the ruler of that domain. But when did Sex Drive, or even the Occult matters come in? I sort' of understand the Money from others matter, as Des ruled the Riches.
What's even more weird is how Uranus could rule electricity, if Jupiter (Zeus) was the God of Lighting and the Thunderbolts. Seems to me that the only reason Uranus was associated with Electricity was to fill in tne gap for the Age of Aquarius thing?!
And last of these, how in the world can Neptune rule Imagination, and Illusions?!!!
He is the God of the Sea for peek's sake. Don't even get me started on the Sun, Moon, Saturn, and Mars (Although I can still agree with this one along with Mercury), Celestial Bodies.
These arguments are centered on Modern Astrology. I couldn't agree with you more and have pointed that out in a number of posts.
The Inferior and Superior Planets are what they are because they were carefully observed for 5,000 before the Greeks and Romans got involved in Astrology. The Sumerians started recording events on clay tablets in their pictographic language. Whenever the Tigris or Euphrates flooded, whenever there were severe storms, good crop yields, bad crop yields, when a king ascended to the throne, when wars and conflicts happened, when people died etc. Then they started recorded celestial positions when people were born, and followed those people throughout their lives noting when they married, gave birth, what their jobs were etc.
When the Akkadian civilization rises, you already have 2,000 years worth of data, and the Akkadians continue recording events, plus they copy and translate the Sumerian data into their language (Akkadian), which had supplanted Sumerian and become a universal language. Then Sumer is destroyed, but Akkad continues on, and now the Amorites and others, like the forerunners of the Assyrians start recording events, except now they're also recording in Aramaic which became the lingua franca for the whole of the Middle East for 2,000 years (and a little longer).
So we've been observing and recording information about those Planets for 7,000 years.
How long have we known Pluto? 70 years. There's no possible way to amass enough data about Pluto to even think about assigning Pluto a Sign for Rulership, Exaltation, Detriment and Fall. And if you notice, no one as of yet has had the audacity to assign Exaltation or Fall to Pluto (or Neptune).
The skepticism and criticism of Modern Astrology with respect to Uranus, Neptune and Pluto is certainly valid.
What Modern Astrologers did is paint them into mythology. Someone found a body orbiting at great distance and named it Pluto. Then Modern Astrologers said, "You will behave exactly like the mythological god Pluto or else!"
And they said the same about Uranus and Neptune, except after only a few decades of observation, the "or else" part has manifested itself, because those three Planets don't behave the way they "ought" to behave.
And now Modern Astrology is in total disarray, and you have Moderns like Lee Lehman and others saying, "Uranus? Fixed Air? Are you out of your freaking mind? and they are backing away from the whole rulership thing for the Outers and ignoring the imposed definitions based on mythology, because there is no astrological basis for it.
When the scientific study was done, Neptun was sextile Pluto, but it didn't have any effect on Earth's EM spectrum. Too bad, so sad.
Do the Outers affect people? I don't see evidence of that. As I said, I treat them as Fixed Stars and with great reluctance because of the number of people who don't understand squares in spite of my best efforts to explain them, I'll mention that Sun square Uranus in certain Signs and Houses has resulted in death, but never Sun square Pluto.
There's a lot of evidence the Outers affect the Masses of People, like Generations, and I even put up a thread on that, but that only proves they behave as Fixed Stars and not Planets.
I've done a lot of research on Pluto in Capricorn and Cancer, and I can tell you that it has an economic impact globally, but only on those countries that have Capricorn/Cancer on the 2nd/8th House Cusps. I have data on every Pluto Capricorn Ingress going back to the late 1200's which is the last period where data exists, and then the data picks up again during the middle stages of the Roman Empire, where Pluto in Capricorn resulted in the issuing of Edicts on price controls, and other economic actions.
That would also prove that Pluto functions more like a Fixed Star than a Planet. So overall, I'd say it's a valid criticism, but it only applies to Modern astrology, not Traditional or Vedic astrology, since they don't use the Outers.
Now that, this Planet things is out of the way, the next issue of mines is the Signs thing. Most of these descrpitions (From what Iv'e learned), apparentley came from the Myths themselves....Did they?
So then if they did, when did the Signs lose their originality and descrpition?
That would be yet one more criticism that applies to Modern astrology, but not Traditional or Vedic.
Modern astrology has silliness like this:
Libra Keywords
- Diplomatic
- Graceful
- Peaceful
- Idealistic
- Hospitable
- Superficial
- Vain
- Indecisive
- Unreliable
Traditional and Vedic astrology have nothing like that. For us, Signs are what they are because of their relationship to one another, and because of their ascension times and their natures. "Mythology" only plays a role insomuch as Aquarius is both a Human Sign (because it is the water-bearer) and a Violent Sign (because it is ruled by Saturn).
However, that is not proof those descriptions are based on mythology.
Last (for now, what I can remember and explain), is how much Astrology can Contradict itself, over and over again.
Which this is based on personal experiences of determinations and casting of my own chart.
First I figure out how, for some odd reason, the Cadent houses of 9 and 3 aren't as bad as the houses of 6 and 12. What's even more funny is how a Succedent House like the 8th House is more debilitated than the Cadent Houses, based on William Lilly's Planet Debilitation System. When previously I had learned that the Succedent Houses are more important than say, the Cadent Houses.
There's no contradiction. The 3rd and 9th House aspect the Ascendant by sextile and trine respectively. The 8th House does not aspect the Ascendant. It is inconjunct. That's also why the 6th and 12th House are "bad" because they are also inconjunct and don't aspect the Ascendant.
Another thing would be the Combustion and Conjunctions Systems, which brings back what I had said of how Modern and Traditional Astrologers debate over this. Not too long ago I had asked a question of how the descriptions of the Conjunctions and Combustions could be 180 Degrees different in their descrpitons, or interpretations. All I got from this was people posting their different Systems they use for Orbs and such, and vague answers for why this is. Nothing short from the truth to answer my, what I think, simple question. Why? Because I think no one really had an accurate, or well thought out answers to begin with.
I don't understand the question, but conjunctions can be good, bad or neutral. The primary factor is Reception, and a secondary factor is Planetary Friendship. If one Planet receives the other, that is good, and if they are Planetary Friends, that's even better. If neither Planet receives the other, and they are Friends, then it's largely neutral. If they are Enemies it's bad, and if one is in Fall/Detriment it's even worse.
A Planet that is Under Beams or Combust is powerless. Why? Can you see Mercury Combust? No, not even with a powerful telescope. Why? Because the Sun's light outshines Mercury and hides it, and that's true for all Planets that are Combust/Under Beams. A Combust Planet cannot make aspects, because it does not reflect any light, because the Sun's light, the Sun's rays, the Sun's energy, whatever you want to call it, over-powers the Planet. That would be another way of looking at it. There is a point where a Planet and the Sun are so closely joined that they become One. That is Cazimi. A Cazimi Planet is very powerful, because it is One with the Sun.
Both Mercury and Moon are Malefics when Under Beams/Combust, and that also applies to the Moon when the Moon is in opposition to the Sun. Don't get me wrong. A Combust Moon is very very useful for certain things but like Ibn Ezra says, "
Those who know and understand will remain silent."
It also makes a huge difference if a Planet or the Sun is applying or separating to and from Combustion, especially in Horary and Mundane Astrology.
Lily explains that, although perhaps not very well, and Lily is hard to read anyway because of the archaic English vernacular.
I've explained all that before in great detail in a number of posts, but this forum is not really conducive to "teaching" and it's hostile to Traditional astrology, so sorry about your luck.
So I ask, if you are going to post some defensive answer for this, just let it be civilized, and moderate. Not something like personal beliefs, opinions, Etc.
Here's a quote from Ptolemy on that:
In the first place, the science demands the greatest study and a constant attention to a multitude of different points; and as all persons who are but imperfectly practiced in it must necessarily commit frequent mistakes, it has been supposed that even such events as have been truly predicted have taken place by chance only, and not from any operative cause in nature. But it should be remembered that these mistakes arise, not from any deficiency or want of power in the science itself, but from the incompetence of unqualified persons who pretend to exercise it.
With respect to this...
And, besides this, the majority of the persons who set themselves up as professors of this science, avail themselves of its name and credit for the sake of passing off some other mode of divination; by that means defrauding the ignorant, and pretending to foretell many things which from their nature cannot possibly be foreknown; and consequently affording opportunities to more intelligent people to impugn the value even of such predictions as can rationally be made.
...it deserves a comment. There's a lot of
that on this forum. There's 7,000 years of Traditional astrology and nowhere do you see any mention of karma, past-lives, reincarnation, crystals, demons, spirits or any other general silliness. So if you see that, run, run away as fast as you can, because those people are doing exactly what Ptolemy warns against, and that is using astrology as vehicle to corrupt others with their ridiculous misguided beliefs.