Recommendations for my blog article?

Hi everyone ...

Here an article I wrote about music and astrology, about tone zodiac's, it's history and my personal interpretation and implementation:

http://www.roelsworld.eu/en/blog-music/zodiac-signs-and-tonality/


UPDATE:
A second article, about how to turn your (birth) horoscope chart into a "tone-collection" to make scales and chords with and for compositional perposes:

http://www.roelsworld.eu/en/blog-music/astrology-music-composition/


Any comments, suggestions, tips or so for my blog article? I'm not as experienced with astrology as most of you here, so where better to ask? :)
 
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Kitchy

Banned
Very cool blog and design and I love the subject matter. Maybe if David Starling sees this, he'll have much to say, he is an astrologer musician like you. It's hard for me offer 'real time' info because I'm not a musician, but I've spent more than half of my life living with, loving, and surrounded by musicians of all genre's. It's one of my favorite but least understood topics.
 
Hi Kitchy, thank you for your kind words.

David Starling is a member of this forum, right? I guess I should send him a message then. Thanks for the suggestion, really appreciate it. :)


Very cool blog and design and I love the subject matter. Maybe if David Starling sees this, he'll have much to say, he is an astrologer musician like you. It's hard for me offer 'real time' info because I'm not a musician, but I've spent more than half of my life living with, loving, and surrounded by musicians of all genre's. It's one of my favorite but least understood topics.
 

Kitchy

Banned
Hi Kitchy, thank you for your kind words.

David Starling is a member of this forum, right? I guess I should send him a message then. Thanks for the suggestion, really appreciate it. :)

I sent him a message but you might ask him yourself as well.

I look forward to the discussion, as I'm always working on learning the ins and outs of musician astrology.
 

Julia Karmic Astrology

Well-known member
I agree that the blog is visually gorgeous. :)

I cannot give content feedback, I do not have any training in music theory.
But your blog helps me understand something important.
We know that the planets and stars have a profound impact upon humans.
That is the underpinning of astrology.
And I can see astrology charts swimming in cosmic energy.
Now I understand how that energy is transmitted from the planets to humans.
Tonal energy.
 
Hi Julia ... thank you for your sweet words.

Everything in the universe is energy and vibrates. Every planet vibrates at it's own frequencies, just like Earth generates the "Schumann Resonance Frequencies". Electromagnetic radiation is a good example of how the cosmos directly effect us. Planets do not generate Electromagnetic radiation themselves, but they do absorb and reflect / re-radiate. The planets do not reflect / re-radiate the same radiation as that came from the Sun. The reason for this is that a planet absorbs part of the radiation depending on it's atmosphere and the chemical composition of the surface. With other words, the Electromagnetic "feedback" from the planets of the Sun that reaches Earth differs from planet to planet.

At least, that is what I know about it. ;)

Music is vibration too - and there is a relationship between sound and light frequencies as well (I did wrote another blog article about that), but the major difference between sound and light is that sound requires a medium to "exist" and to "propagate" (or reproduce, depending on what theory you consider to be true). But space itself is "empty" (no medium). Thus the sound generated by the resonance of a planet would never reach Earth. So the transmission of energy between the planets and earth is not tonal (as in sound).

I hope this makes sense? :)

I agree that the blog is visually gorgeous. :)

Now I understand how that energy is transmitted from the planets to humans.
Tonal energy.
 

Julia Karmic Astrology

Well-known member
Hi Julia ... thank you for your sweet words.

Everything in the universe is energy and vibrates. Every planet vibrates at it's own frequencies, just like Earth generates the "Schumann Resonance Frequencies". Electromagnetic radiation is a good example of how the cosmos directly effect us. Planets do not generate Electromagnetic radiation themselves, but they do absorb and reflect / re-radiate. The planets do not reflect / re-radiate the same radiation as that came from the Sun. The reason for this is that a planet absorbs part of the radiation depending on it's atmosphere and the chemical composition of the surface. With other words, the Electromagnetic "feedback" from the planets of the Sun that reaches Earth differs from planet to planet.

At least, that is what I know about it. ;)

Music is vibration too - and there is a relationship between sound and light frequencies as well (I did wrote another blog article about that), but the major difference between sound and light is that sound requires a medium to "exist" and to "propagate" (or reproduce, depending on what theory you consider to be true). But space itself is "empty" (no medium). Thus the sound generated by the resonance of a planet would never reach Earth. So the transmission of energy between the planets and earth is not tonal (as in sound).

I hope this makes sense? :)

Yes, it makes sense, but I am not sure I agree.
Modern quantum physics is beginning to say that there is no empty space.
That all space contains some sort of energy.

We have not been able to identify the medium to date, but some think it is there.
Just because we cannot measure it yet, does not mean it does not exist.
Every year we seem to learn more about how we are interconnected with the cosmos.

I read all of your blog, looked at all the graphics and I realized that each natal chart
must have a unique tonal fingerprint or tonal signature. This has meaning and is important.
I believe it may have more implications than you realize at this point.

Just my .02.

Julia
 
Yes, it makes sense, but I am not sure I agree.
Modern quantum physics is beginning to say that there is no empty space.
That all space contains some sort of energy.

Yes, that's why I wrote "empty".

I don't mean space is a void (completely unfilled), but what is considered to be a "medium" (such as for example air or water) is not present.

Sound ("mechanical" waves of pressure and displacement) is transmitted through media such as gases, plasma, and liquids as longitudinal waves (or "compression" waves). Through solids it can be transmitted both as longitudinal and transverse waves. Those media are not present in space, or not in the form or capacity required to function as medium.

Without a "medium" there is no displacement. And that means that the resonance frequencies from for example Mars can never reach Earth. There is nothing to displace, no change of pressure, by the sound in between the source (Mars) through space towards Earth.

Did I now explain it more clearly? :)
 
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I read all of your blog, looked at all the graphics and I realized that each natal chart must have a unique tonal fingerprint or tonal signature. This has meaning and is important. I believe it may have more implications than you realize at this point.

Just my .02.

Julia

Yes, you could create a tonal fingerprint with the info in the article. I have some ideas about that as well, but didn't have the time so far to write another article about it. In short:

The simplest way (I think) you could do so is for example to create a scale of tones based upon the position of the planets of the natal horoscope. How many tones the scale contains does depend a bit (on how much the planets are spread apart).

In my case this means the following combination:
C (1) - C#/Db (2) - D (1) - F#/Gb (2) - G (3) - G#/Ab (1) - A (2).

Naturally there will be many more people with the same planets in the same signs as I have. So, if you want to make it a more precise fingerprint, you could step outside the 12-Tone Equal Tempered scale and step into the world of microtonal music.

You could then use the degree the planet is in to calculate the amount of cents you can use to pitch the tone up or down from the basic 12-Tone Equal Tempered system (that aligns with the cusps of the signs). In my case the tone G that would be 3x the same tone in standard Equal Temperament but would actually become 3 slightly different tuned G's when using the degrees as reference instead of just the sign.

This is in short one of the concepts for creating your own tonal fingerprint. There is much more to be said about this. ;)

In what I just wrote above we have not considered the meaning of the position of the planets, or the houses or aspects between the planets ... I am not completely sure about all of this yet, I am not an Astrologer so I have to do a lot more "digging into it".
 
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Julia Karmic Astrology

Well-known member
Yes, that's why I wrote "empty".

I don't mean space is a void (completely unfilled), but what is considered to be a "medium" (such as for example air or water) is not present.

Sound ("mechanical" waves of pressure and displacement) is transmitted through media such as gases, plasma, and liquids as longitudinal waves (or "compression" waves). Through solids it can be transmitted both as longitudinal and transverse waves. Those media are not present in space, or not in the form or capacity required to function as medium.

Without a "medium" there is no displacement. And that means that the resonance frequencies from for example Mars can never reach Earth. There is nothing to displace, no change of pressure, by the sound in between the source (Mars) through space towards Earth.

Did I now explain it more clearly? :)

Yes, but I still disagree!

In widely published reports last year, NASA reported sounds in space.

It was stated that "sound does exist in space, in the form of electromagnetic vibrations that pulsate in similar wavelengths." NASA designed special instruments that could record these electromagnetic vibrations, and transferred them into sounds that our ears could hear.

If you go online, there are many recordings of space sounds. This would seem to refute your belief that sound cannot exist in "empty" space?

So we now can see that sound takes the form of vibrational energy that can be heard with special instruments, and which pulsate. And would you agree that vibrational pulsating energy could perhaps travel in space?

As I have been saying, astrology is based upon the notion that the stars and planets have a profound impact upon humans. From the moment of birth there is a strong cosmic imprinting that seems to hard wire a person on many levels. And then for the rest of his or her life, transiting planets influence events. So what is the specific mechanism for this?

You have done a fabulous job in reviewing the literature on tonal astrology. Now I am kicking it up a notch and connecting the dots about what it all might mean for those of us in the field. I know your work is important, I am just trying to absorb the implications.

But if you wish, we can put that debate aside for a moment, while we address the other fascinating part of your work. And I excitedly see that you have included a separate post on the topic of tonal signatures.

Thank you for allowing me to have an excellent discussion and debate with you!

Julia
 

RaRohini

Well-known member
Thats a very interesting discussion. If i may chip in.. in Vedic astrology, each star or nakshatra within a zodiac is assigned a certain 'raga' (scale of tunes) which resonates with them. Similarly, while naming a child, one may name them according to the tones set for the birth star. So everytime someone calls that person, it resonates with the 'tone'.
Apologise for being the 'bull' in the China shop 😃
 

Julia Karmic Astrology

Well-known member
Roels,

I tossed and turned last night, trying to determine the formula for a natal tonal signature, based upon astrology fundamentals. But with no music training, I cannot translate the formula into tones. You are the one who can do that.

This is quite exciting, to say the least. I feel certain that each of us has a unique tonal signature.

Yes I assumed the same thing, the scale would be created based upon planetary position in the natal chart. I think using the degree of the natal planet is important.

In this kind of project Roels, start with the basics. Assigning a specific tone to a planet in a sign using the degree of the planet is the first step. While your work shows us each sign has a specific tone, can the same be said of the planets? Do they have tones as well?

I think it is most likely that the houses and aspects will have tones as well, but that will require some more work to sort out. I think just a basic tonal signature would be great for now. I am hoping that soon you will be able to post an audio file containing your tonal signature. :)

I am wondering how the tonal signature might be used? Could it provide a unique music for meditation? Or help with healing or enhance abilities or talents?

Julia
 
Yes, but I still disagree!

... "snip-snap" ...

But if you wish, we can put that debate aside for a moment, while we address the other fascinating part of your work. And I excitedly see that you have included a separate post on the topic of tonal signatures.

Thank you for allowing me to have an excellent discussion and debate with you!

Julia

It's always a pleasure to debate (in particular in the tone we do), even if we have a different idea about how sound works.

Being a musician and sound engineer does not automatically means I know all there is about sound ... I'm not a scientist / physicist ... nor expert in other fields such as quantum physics ... Once upon a time even great minds believed the universe revolved around Earth, that by itself was as flat as a pancake. ;)
 
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Thats a very interesting discussion. If i may chip in.. in Vedic astrology, each star or nakshatra within a zodiac is assigned a certain 'raga' (scale of tunes) which resonates with them. Similarly, while naming a child, one may name them according to the tones set for the birth star. So everytime someone calls that person, it resonates with the 'tone'.
Apologise for being the 'bull' in the China shop 😃

You're very welcome to chip in ... that's the whole point about posting something at a forum, right? ;)

I had read something about that as well, but of Vedic astrology I know even less then I do about the traditional western astrology. This though would be worth to look into in the near future when I have time. Thanks for reminding me about it ... :)
 
Yes I assumed the same thing, the scale would be created based upon planetary position in the natal chart. I think using the degree of the natal planet is important. Julia

Yes, is we use degrees and microtonalism in music then you can create a combination of tone-frequencies unique to one person.

Of course this mean most common western instruments can not be used for producing music with it. You would need to use instruments that are not set to / limited by temperament (like fret-less string instruments, wind/brass instruments like trombone without valves or buttons/tone-holes), instruments specially designed for a particular set of tone frequencies or instruments with microtonal capabilities (like modern synthesizers). Ah, and of course the human voice and percussion instruments would not have a problem.

In this kind of project Roels, start with the basics. Assigning a specific tone to a planet in a sign using the degree of the planet is the first step. While your work shows us each sign has a specific tone, can the same be said of the planets? Do they have tones as well? Julia

Actually, the do. Just like Earth generates resonant frequencies (Schumann Resonance), so does every planet. A facebook friend of mine (who some of you Astrologers on this forum perhaps even know) named Nick Anthony Fiorenza wrote some interesting articles about some of that and created some nice images to visualize it. This is one image he made about Earth:

earth-scales.jpg


And this one of Venus:
venus-scales.jpg


Others base sound and color specifications on time (how long for example a day is on each planet - speed of spin, one rotation = one day). And there are other concepts.

As you mentioned a bit earlier did NASA "record" the sound of planets. NASA didn't exactly record the sound the planets created (because the space probes were just passing by through space). What NASA did is the captured the waves generated by electromagnetic and magnetic fields. These vibrations are captured by EMF detectors, magnetometers, videos and imaging systems, et cetera (not by microphone) and then converted into sound vibrations and the frequency is sped up to be audible to human ears. In some cases the speeding up would have taken several days of captured video/images crunched into seconds. Our ears do not hear light, nor do our eyes see sound, electromagnetic waves and sound waves are not the same and "work" very differently in the physical world. Naturally we can use tools to "convert" one to the other. But, let's not get "off topic" too much now hehehe.

I think it is most likely that the houses and aspects will have tones as well, but that will require some more work to sort out. I think just a basic tonal signature would be great for now. I am hoping that soon you will be able to post an audio file containing your tonal signature. :)Julia

I am not sure if houses will be easy to interpret musically ... but aspects can be used to represent tone-relationships, as I also showed in my article.

It will take a while before I can actually create an audio file from it, our studio us undergoing a major renovation, I don't think it will reopen before September and then there is first a lot of catching up with delayed work before I can "experiment". At home I don't have proper hardware for studio work (by choice, not to turn into a 24/7 sound-zombie hihihi).

I am wondering how the tonal signature might be used? Could it provide a unique music for meditation? Or help with healing or enhance abilities or talents?Julia

I'm sure for meditation it will work fine. Actually, RaRohini just mentioned something about that ...

If it will heal or enhance abilities I am not sure, without proper testing and research it is but speculating. ;)
 
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Julia Karmic Astrology

Well-known member
It's always a pleasure to debate (in particular in the tone we do), even if we have a different idea about how sound works.

Being a musician and sound engineer does not automatically means I know all there is about sound ... I'm not a scientist / physicist ... nor expert in other fields such as quantum physics ... Once upon a time even great minds believed the universe revolved around Earth, that by itself was as flat as a pancake. ;)

Yes of course, you know so much more than I do about the theory and process of sound.
However, yes I think that sometimes the more we know about a topic, the more we cannot think outside the box. We need someone from outside the field to shake us up a bit.

For example, I thought I understood the mechanism by which the planets impact humans.
But then I read your work, and it made me consider other options.
Sound is just another form of energy.

That said, you may be correct. :)

Julia
 

Julia Karmic Astrology

Well-known member
Thats a very interesting discussion. If i may chip in.. in Vedic astrology, each star or nakshatra within a zodiac is assigned a certain 'raga' (scale of tunes) which resonates with them. Similarly, while naming a child, one may name them according to the tones set for the birth star. So everytime someone calls that person, it resonates with the 'tone'.
Apologise for being the 'bull' in the China shop 😃

You're very welcome to chip in ... that's the whole point about posting something at a forum, right? ;)

I had read something about that as well, but of Vedic astrology I know even less then I do about the traditional western astrology. This though would be worth to look into in the near future when I have time. Thanks for reminding me about it ... :)

I don't think RaRohini you are the bull in the china shop.
You have actually been in the china shop long before we arrived in terms of sound and astrology!

So the Vedics determine a birth star for each child, the birth star has been assigned a musical note, and then a name can be given to the child similar to the star tone?

Are you aware of anyone extending this idea to the natal chart? Assigning tones to the placements?

Julia
 

Julia Karmic Astrology

Well-known member
Roel, thank you so much for your reply.

So with 12 signs and 30 degrees each sign, we are looking at 360 zodiac sign microtones?

And planets have sounds as well? (That blows my mind.)

Can you combine the planet sign tone with the sign tone?
How would that work?

And then all the aspects can be assigned specific tones.
Mind boggling to think about how many tones we are looking at for each chart.

Yes I know that much of this is speculative, but it is intriguing.
You and others have done so much work on this topic, I cannot help
but think about what it means for astrology theory and how it might
be used on a practical level.

I feel intuitively that the astrology chart is a pictorial symbolic representation of
energy, several different types of energy. But I had not thought about tonal
vibrations.

Well, think about all of it.
Let it cook.

If the opportunity presents itself, think about making a recording of your natal chart.
To make it easier, just do the planets in the signs, don't worry about the aspects right now.

Julia
 
However, yes I think that sometimes the more we know about a topic, the more we cannot think outside the box. We need someone from outside the field to shake us up a bit.

True, very true. And perhaps I might be "stuck" within a particular "framework" as well, who knows. ;) ... maybe we just need to "shake each other up" a bit. Haha!

As one story goes, that truth was a mirror that broke and all who picked up a piece proclaimed holding the truth. My "work" is at best but another piece of that mirror and I ain't proclaiming it is "the" truth. ;) hehehe

For example, I thought I understood the mechanism by which the planets impact humans. But then I read your work, and it made me consider other options. Sound is just another form of energy.
Julia

That is true, sound is a form of energy too.

So with 12 signs and 30 degrees each sign, we are looking at 360 zodiac sign microtones?

Yes, correct. Using a 360-tone system as base, that is what I am suggesting to create a natal tone fingerprint.

How much tones you will actually use then does still depends on how many chart elements you are going to use. Naturally the planets, but that could be the "classica 7" or the "modern 12" or perhaps even 15. Perhaps you like to add some stars as well ... or also the nodes ... or ...

And planets have sounds as well? (That blows my mind.)

Can you combine the planet sign tone with the sign tone?
How would that work?

Well, every planet that has some sort of atmosphere will have sound. Just like the Schumann Resonance Frequencies. Of course we aren't aware of them, they are in the range of the so called "ELF" (Extremely Low Frequencies) between approx 3 Hz and 60 Hz. Below 20Hz most people can't hear anything.

Anyway, if you're using the 360-tone system, then the can of course combine concepts / ideas ... so why shouldn't you combine things if that feels good to you. :)


And then all the aspects can be assigned specific tones.
Mind boggling to think about how many tones we are looking at for each chart.

I personally would not look at the astrological aspects as tones, but as the intervals between tones. Intervals play particular "roles" in music, just like aspects do in astrology. I think they "overlap" in some ways ...

About the intervals and their functions I also wrote a short article, maybe also an interesting read for you? http://www.roelsworld.eu/en/blog-music/the-function-of-the-intervals/


If the opportunity presents itself, think about making a recording of your natal chart.
To make it easier, just do the planets in the signs, don't worry about the aspects right now.
Julia

Yes, it's on my "to-do-list" hehehe.

When it comes to astrology, astronomy and music I do have to do another project first. I did created a new microtonal tuning concept based on the astronomical Zodiac. In case you are curious, then you can find a short ambient music fragment based on that concept here:
http://www.roelsworld.eu/en/blog-music/the-astronomical-zodiac-scale-temperament/

A 360-tone system would be way more complex and sounds possibly less "harmonious" as this tuning concept above though ...

One day when I have enough time, I will explore all of this more of course. :)
 

Julia Karmic Astrology

Well-known member
Roel:

I think in a good debate, each side is shaken up to some extent. It is like a snow globe that gets shaken up, but then the snow settles to the bottom, arranged in way that is different from before it was shaken.

I was shaken by your work, but in a good way.
I can see that you are quite accomplished in the area of music theory.
I am just someone who practices karmic astrology, very much
on the applied end of things. Out in the field being of service to others.
I do have training as a scientist as well. However I have no music training,
so cannot critique your work from that perspective, but I can kick the tires
a bit and contemplate if and how tonal astrology can be integrated in some way
into my work. I guess we tend to put the broken mirror pieces back together in a
way that suits us and makes sense to us, for good or bad.

Getting you to admit sound is energy, OK, we are making progress. :)

Yikes, the amount of variables is indeed mind boggling.
I would recommend that for your first attempt at a tonal fingerprint,
you keep it simple. Start with the planets and then add more variables.

Each astrologer may want a different style fingerprint based on the work they do.
For example as a karmic astrologer, I am most interested in the Nodes, Moon, Sun, Chiron.

But I think a general use fingerprint is the way to start.

Oh that is interesting, I had no idea how you would depict the aspects.
Not as tones, but intervals. OK, that makes sense.
I will read the article you referenced.

And then you can combine sign and planet tones.
Wow, Ok. You really can do a natal chart tonal fingerprint. :)

So there are at least two tonal methods that could be used for the fingerprint?
You are working on the other one as well.
I will very much like to listen to the clip you have provided.

In terms of which one to use, I would think that if at some point people want to meditate or relax to the music of their natal chart, then the sound would need to be harmonious and pleasant?? Research shows that most humans do not react well to discordant sounds?

Also, my bias, in karmic astrology, the natal chart is a gift from God and a sacred document. It outlines our soul purpose. So I would hate to hear the tonal version of a natal chart sounding like a bunch of screeching monkeys. :)

I am sorry to put something on your "to-do" list. For the time being just let it perculate and cook in your head. When the time is right you can tackle it.

Julia


True, very true. And perhaps I might be "stuck" within a particular "framework" as well, who knows. ;) ... maybe we just need to "shake each other up" a bit. Haha!

As one story goes, that truth was a mirror that broke and all who picked up a piece proclaimed holding the truth. My "work" is at best but another piece of that mirror and I ain't proclaiming it is "the" truth. ;) hehehe



That is true, sound is a form of energy too.



Yes, correct. Using a 360-tone system as base, that is what I am suggesting to create a natal tone fingerprint.

How much tones you will actually use then does still depends on how many chart elements you are going to use. Naturally the planets, but that could be the "classica 7" or the "modern 12" or perhaps even 15. Perhaps you like to add some stars as well ... or also the nodes ... or ...



Well, every planet that has some sort of atmosphere will have sound. Just like the Schumann Resonance Frequencies. Of course we aren't aware of them, they are in the range of the so called "ELF" (Extremely Low Frequencies) between approx 3 Hz and 60 Hz. Below 20Hz most people can't hear anything.

Anyway, if you're using the 360-tone system, then the can of course combine concepts / ideas ... so why shouldn't you combine things if that feels good to you. :)

Sorry to put something on your "to-do" list.
Just let it all percolate for the time being and see what happens.



I personally would not look at the astrological aspects as tones, but as the intervals between tones. Intervals play particular "roles" in music, just like aspects do in astrology. I think they "overlap" in some ways ...

About the intervals and their functions I also wrote a short article, maybe also an interesting read for you? http://www.roelsworld.eu/en/blog-mu...ic/the-astronomical-zodiac-scale-temperament/

A 360-tone system would be way more complex and sounds possibly less "harmonious" as this tuning concept above though ...

One day when I have enough time, I will explore all of this more of course. :)
 
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