houses that rule pregnancy: what about miscarriage and abortion

Would the 5th house for first child/ pregnancy and 7th house for second child/ pregnancy still apply if there was a miscarriage or abortion for the first child. What about women who have had multiple miscarriages. Would you continue to rotate around the chart for each pregnancy?
I also remember reading that the 8th house deals with the actual pregnancy, but I hadn't heard that before. And pregnancies can be so different.
What about twins? I have twins and have looked at the same house for them...same conception date, same pregnancy, same labor...etc. It works. But would a subsequent child got to the next available house for children 3 down, or to the one after that, 6 down?

If you are talking about an astro-therapeutic analysis based on the mother's natal, I have always used her 5th house relative to current or most recent child bearing matters (8th for her reproductive system; 1st also, together with 5th, for fertility), regardless of the number of pregnancies (successful or not) pre-dating the current time.

The techniques of spinning the chart round and round the houses gets highly complex and depends upon what set of "rules" one might be following; I have not engaged in these manipulations so I can't make any statements about their accuracy or reliability in actual practice...

In horary? Pre-Bonatti (pre 13th century) Islamic practitioners (Alchabitius for one) would often take the 1st trigonal lord of the 5th for the 1st child (or pregnancy), 2nd trigonal lord of the 5th for the 2nd child/pregnancy, and 3rd trigonal lord of the 5th for the 3rd child/pregnancy, in delineating a specific horary question regarding the child in question or re to pregnancy/pregnancies. However, I have never personally used this method for pregnancy/childbirth horary (I much prefer delineating from the natal/profected or SR data to horary in such situations) so I cannot make any definite statements as to how well this ancient method might work...

Previous pregnancies and miscarriages:

For investigation of the macrocosmic influences possibly involved in previous pregnancies, births or miscarriages (and abortions as well), profection (either Egyptian or Pauline, although I am well satisfied with the accuracy of Pauline) can sometimes be of informative value.

Method
-profect the ascendant to the year of life in which the pregnancy (child birth) or miscarriage occured
-now count 5 signs (with the profected ascendant sign counted as the first)
-this 5th sign= the profected "5th house"
-that sign, and any planets (natal planets) in it, often gives indications regarding the pregnancy or miscarriage
-further information can sometimes be obtained by looking at any planetary transits (occuring in that year) of that 5th sign, and the possible influences these planetary transits might have had on the pregnancy, child birth or miscarriage.

thank you for responding. You are very knowledgable.

dr. farr said:

In horary? Pre-Bonatti (pre 13th century) Islamic practitioners (Alchabitius for one) would often take the 1st trigonal lord of the 5th for the 1st child (or pregnancy), 2nd trigonal lord of the 5th for the 2nd child/pregnancy, and 3rd trigonal lord of the 5th for the 3rd child/pregnancy, in delineating a specific horary question regarding the child in question or re to pregnancy/pregnancies. However, I have never personally used this method for pregnancy/childbirth horary (I much prefer delineating from the natal/profected or SR data to horary in such situations) so I cannot make any definite statements as to how well this ancient method might work...

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From Hermes (and Ptolemy and others) I was under the impression they cast a Conception Chart, and from that they could tell miscarriages or "monstrous births" etc.

fushiafairy said:

But would a subsequent child got to the next available house for children 3 down, or to the one after that, 6 down?

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My understanding is that the Native's children are the fifth House from the 5th House and so on around the chart (in the case of adoptive or step-children the fifth House from the 11th House), but the siblings of the children are the third House from the 5th House and so on around the chart.

Yes, often the ancients cast Conception charts as Mr. Zemco mentions: they are in fact an advanced method for making special investigations regarding the pregnancy, future child, and other more arcane matters involving the future child.

I remember doing conception charts with my first child. Looked at it with my twins too.
Fifth from the fifth described all my children in some way.
Fifth from the 11th fits my stepdaughter too.

I have never heard of profecting before. I looked it up and think I have the concept. The chart moves one sign for each year? Interesting concept.
Thank you for your replies.

fushiafairy said:

I have never heard of profecting before. I looked it up and think I have the concept. The chart moves one sign for each year? Interesting concept.

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Yes, the ascendant (and of course all other sections of the chart) move ahead one sign for each year; the ruling planet of the new sign becomes the planetary ruler of that year of life. There are 2 ways of profecting: once (the Egyption) counts the original ascendant (original 1st house of the natal) as 0 years of age; the Pauline method (358 AD) counts the original ascendant (original first house of the natal) as 1 year of age. Most of those who use profection follow the Egyptian method; I follow the Pauline. I consider profection (and profection conditioned transits) as the best (most accurately reliable) predictive consideration of the evolution through time of the natal chart(that's my opinion based on my experiences), followed by simple symbolic progressions and Solar Returns (often it is useful to compare the indications from 2 or even 3 of these techniques, in order to get better accuracy in the predictive work)

This is a topic of interest, especially in my case as I have experienced a miscarriage and two abortions as well as given birth to a healthy baby.

Now-taking into account my experience:
5th house (1st abortion)
7th house (2nd abortion)
9th house (gave birth to a daughter: Gemini-Mercury in Leo with no aspects.. coincidentally she is a Gemini but Mercury could go both ways ),
11th house (miscarriage last year)...

Now I'm pregnant again - would I be looking at the 1st or fifth house?
And if we want more children is it following the pattern of 3rd and 5th or 7th and 9th?

I can post my chart if you'd like, specifically for this issue as the baby is hiding him/herself on the ultrasound... We will know the result before the end of this month so it's interesting to learn from it....
PLUS I am extremely curious if miscarriage/abortion and having given birth to a 3rd child /daughter a Gemini/ would actually to some extent follow the rule which was discussed here.

Tina

I'm a male, but from my star chart the ruling planet Uranus in the 5th yet in feminine Scorpio and the sidereal astrological Sun a day after it entered Aquarius (Feb. 15 is still 3 days away from entering Pisces in the tropical field) in the 7th house: but I'm Aquarius (the 8th) by the Moon associated with maternity, then the Mercury in Pisces (the 9th) and the 10th-11th house reminds me of my Mom (Venus in Aries and her solar sign Taurus). The thing is partially caused by my rising sign Cancer and the 3rd house filled with 4 or 5 "planets" in Virgo such as the co-ruler Saturn abit close to the demoness Lilith (or like my Ceres in the Mid-heaven to be goddesses of fertility), Jupiter and Mars are multi-generational planets, I may be a devoted father and protective of my future lover when's pregnant, then I admit to find pregnancy in women to be attractive ;-) and affects my perception and attitudes on women to show I think maternity and parenting are important roles.

fushiafairy said:

Would the 5th house for first child/ pregnancy and 7th house for second child/ pregnancy still apply if there was a miscarriage or abortion for the first child. What about women who have had multiple miscarriages. Would you continue to rotate around the chart for each pregnancy?
I also remember reading that the 8th house deals with the actual pregnancy, but I hadn't heard that before. And pregnancies can be so different.
What about twins? I have twins and have looked at the same house for them...same conception date, same pregnancy, same labor...etc. It works. But would a subsequent child got to the next available house for children 3 down, or to the one after that, 6 down?

Click to expand...

7th house does not deal with any pregnancies, no matter how many.
Always the 5th, Neptune and Uranus affecting it, in it or transitting deals with miscarriage. We do not rotate around the chart. Each house has its meanings and they remain static. 8th house is the orgasm but not always conception.

tina1979 said:

This is a topic of interest, especially in my case as I have experienced a miscarriage and two abortions as well as given birth to a healthy baby.

Now-taking into account my experience:
5th house (1st abortion)
7th house (2nd abortion)
9th house (gave birth to a daughter: Gemini-Mercury in Leo with no aspects.. coincidentally she is a Gemini but Mercury could go both ways ),
11th house (miscarriage last year)...

Now I'm pregnant again - would I be looking at the 1st or fifth house?
And if we want more children is it following the pattern of 3rd and 5th or 7th and 9th?

I can post my chart if you'd like, specifically for this issue as the baby is hiding him/herself on the ultrasound... We will know the result before the end of this month so it's interesting to learn from it....
PLUS I am extremely curious if miscarriage/abortion and having given birth to a 3rd child /daughter a Gemini/ would actually to some extent follow the rule which was discussed here.

Tina

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You have it all wrong, the 5th house always deals with our children as it is the house of procreativity and how we educate our children. The 4th house can show an increase in family members as well. The 11th house deals with fostering and adopting of children
but only if there are planets there which point to that. It is also sciences and technologies and may deal with IVF for instance.

Thanks for that Claire19.

There's so much misinformation on the internet regarding this particular topic-I remember reading on a number of occasions that we actually DO rotate around the chart to look for additional children (after 1st is looked at in 5th house)...

This sheds some light on my situation.

To predict the years one may become pregnant and/or have a child (not only the risk of miscarriage), allow me to chart my own future in this regard...it shouldn't be hard, but to project ones' ability to foresee into the future in such a great way.

Method
-profect the ascendant to the year of life in which the pregnancy (child birth) or miscarriage occured:
For me, 1980 (ascendant sign Cancer, the 1st house ruled by Aries).
-now count 5 signs (with the profected ascendant sign counted as the first) = Cancer moves into Scorpio (the 8th sign of the zodiac).
The years 1996, 2008 & 2010 when Cancer is in this natal 5th house under the influence of Scorpio, and in the natal 10th house was Venus in Aries, associated with the mother ... but the 4th relates solely to the father.
-this 5th sign= the profected "5th house" Scorpio, like Cancer is watery.
-that sign, and any planets (natal planets) in it, often gives indications regarding the pregnancy or miscarriage = Uranus was then in Scorpio.
Since 1980, Uranus has moved into Pisces, the third of the 3 water signs.
-further information can sometimes be obtained by looking at any planetary transits (occuring in that year) of that 5th sign, and the possible influences these planetary transits might have had on the pregnancy, child birth or miscarriage. = Mercury was in Pisces my 9th house at the time of my birth, perhaps whenever Uranus is in Pisces or made the transit into Aries sometime this year, while my natal Moon ruled by Cancer in my birth sign Aquarius-the 8th house is ruled by Scorpio.

The natal Uranus "squares" natal Mercury, "sextiles" with natal Venus and "trines" with the natal new Moon as well the Sun near the point of total eclipse occurred the next day (Feb. 15-16, 1980).

Can anyone help me out: I'm curious to come up with the part of children, one of three things people of all signs generally look forward happily with fortune and marriage.