Inviting thoughts on Pluto

sandstone

Banned
all the planets have to be involved in some way, shape or form, but moon and mercury would count for a lot if they have something to do with a persons mind and thought process..

9th harmonic, or navamsha chart has pluto conjunct ascendant while mercury/mars conjunction squares onto this point, all very close.. it shows up in the midpoint via mercury/mars = pluto by square.. moon/mercury = midheaven.. they are all connected as well as pluto is 45 midheaven.. as for tying it to the event chart, i mostly saw mars-nep opp tied to ascendant with t saturn tied to mars.. he has a wide conjunct of saturn mercury in the natal chart with a closer mars/moon square in the same natal chart...
 

miquar

Well-known member
Hi Sandstone. Thanks for posting your observations around Venus. After I posted I was thinking about how Liz Greene suggests that Libra rising is prone to conditions like psychopathy where the chart shows big difficulties elsewhere, because they look around and expect to see harmony, and feel deeply hurt when they don't find it.

Hi MaeMae. Weren't you expressing some strong views about Gemini on the 'cheating' thread. Do you mind if I ask what Mercury and Gemini are up to in your chart? (No vicious intent - just curiosity!)
 

miquar

Well-known member
I saw the film Woman In Black the other day and thought it was very Plutonian. But one of the most Plutonian films I've ever seen is Drag Me To Hell. Pluto at its 'best' - a modern day tale of hubris (on the part of the caricature Libran main character) and fate! Both films worth watching I think.
 

MaeMae

Banned
Getting Freudian?
Moon Gemini
Mercury opp. Uranus
Mercury ruler 3rd.
Mercury sq. Neptune
Pluto/NN Virgo.
Mercury rules a good chunk of my chart.
I've been around the block with mercury. Can't you tell?
Nonetheless, Mars acts on Sun's ego's behalf. It's quick and to the point.
Mercury employs viciousness, which comes in a brutal fight for life, Pluto, or a vicious plot to end one, as the SK example was drawn.
That kind of premeditation, if only in an iota of a moment, comes before the launch. In a fight when you're jumped, there is a different thing opwrating. most plutonians premeditate. doesn't matter where.
 

sandstone

Banned
hi miquar,

i think one has to go deeper into the nature of venus in birds chart to understand better how libra rising might be differentiated.. in birds chart venus is in capricorn a sign venus isn't especially known for functioning at it's best in.. it also happens to be the planet most closely aspecting his angles, followed by jupiter in libra.. venus is moving into a close square with this jupiter rising as well.. the idea that relationships might be challenging for him can be seen a few ways, in spite of what probably was a strong need on his part to be involved in one.. the detachment of moon in aquarius, combined with the more saturnian flavoured venus here would suggest difficulties for him as i see it and have much bearing on the libra rising..
 

miquar

Well-known member
Thanks MaeMae. Hermes could certainly be callous in myth - the first thing he did was kill the tortoise to make a lyre. But I don't associate Mercury with survival instincts or vengeful brooding. I see it as simply unempathic rather than malicious. I have Mercury in the 8th sesquiquadrate Pluto and I know how how Pluto's survival instincts can influence the mind positively and negatively. Are you saying though that you think there is a special relationship between Mercury and Pluto? I'm not challenging you - I'm just interested.
 

miquar

Well-known member
hi miquar,

i think one has to go deeper into the nature of venus in birds chart to understand better how libra rising might be differentiated.. in birds chart venus is in capricorn a sign venus isn't especially known for functioning at it's best in.. it also happens to be the planet most closely aspecting his angles, followed by jupiter in libra.. venus is moving into a close square with this jupiter rising as well.. the idea that relationships might be challenging for him can be seen a few ways, in spite of what probably was a strong need on his part to be involved in one.. the detachment of moon in aquarius, combined with the more saturnian flavoured venus here would suggest difficulties for him as i see it and have much bearing on the libra rising..

Yes his Libran streak is certainly more than just his rising sign.

His Mars and Sun were in passionate fire and water, but as you say he has Venus in Capricorn and Moon in Aquarius - so he was predisposed to attract/perceive aloof women. Moon also opposite Uranus and conjunct Chiron which suggests he was wounded by his mother's detachment. And so that Mars in Scorpio that squares the opposition never got to express its passion in the way it would have liked.
 

JerryRR

Well-known member
Thank you for your thoughts regarding Bird's chart etc.I enjoyed reading your posts.
Birds natal has MO=MA/NN Quarrels and disputes within communities.
NN/PL/MC A common and tragic destiny shared with other persons.
Source COSI
On the day of the shootings he was having a lunar return.The Police were called about 10.20 am BST.

Birds chart relocated to Pattaya,Asc Cap,Venus con Ascendant.

Whitehaven was incorporated,11 July 1894 00 00 54N33 3W35.

J.R.
 

TransformingSelf

Well-known member
Hi MaeMae!

It's the same energy in the air, that brought Jackson Browne to us at the same time. I went and looked his birth information up on astro theme and saw that he was born on October 9, 1948 at an unknown time. I thought about Kannon's thoroughly researched Ascendant Outlines and only by looking at his pictures, I would say he is a Libra rising because of his "ovate" head and "cleft" in chin, but also evenness in facial form that reminds me of the evenness of a Libra personality. But in his natal aspects, you can see the planets we were talking about, Neptune and Pluto! And he also has the Capricorn Moon you were talking about. His Sun is conjunct Neptune and sextile Pluto and Pluto is conjunct his Ascendant. It is no wonder that he has such a spiritually dreamy look in his eyes with Neptune there, but also the bright lighting in some of his music videos is reminiscent of an atmosphere of the stark reality of Pluto. It's as if reality is lighted up and never far removed from the music he sings. Where is your Hades moon song thread? I have another Plutonian song for you that would fit perfectly there.

Hi Waybread!

Thank you so much for your thoughtful and excellent advice! Yes, I completely relate to the stress of it all! I've found that with Pluto, one never knows which direction it will lead you. It's like a see-saw, so positively upbeat on some days and so negatively strenuous on others. But the point that I find that it drives into my head is to listen to its instinctual call. It exposes more and more of the truth that it summoned into our hearts all along. I see its ruthlessness if one were to suppress its advice, block it out of acceptance. It shows me the reality of people and their intentions, and I figured it out now that I had it in the past, though have only come to define it astrologically recently.
Pluto's shadow effects that you describe are interesting. I read the shadow effects in relation to the 7th house where we reflect the sign or signs of the 7th house onto partners and people we associate with ourselves. I can see this casting off of energy as another aspect of the ruthlessness of Pluto bringing them back into our lives to enforce the reality of our lives and the place where we need to make changes. But despite its ruthlessness, I feel relieved by Pluto because of the truth revealed, unencumbered by any conditions placed on it. It is with my Sun that I am most irritated because it is too stubborn and continues to persist out of habit, thinking that it can persevere through the severest of pressures. It's Pluto that helps it emerge out of the past into the present and future, in sync with the deepest enfolds of the spirit.
That "letting go" aspect of Pluto is not only liberating, but life saving. And Pluto is much easier on the self if the letting go is willingly done. The introspection that it incites are beneficent to us, the exercising off of the intolerable pressures to let them go from our system with the pressures of the past, the attention to sleep and rest that we need to recharge ourselves, and the healthy vitals we need to restore the faith in who we are. I find that with this Pluto transit, I am eating so much more fruit, twenty strawberries in a week!
But that's Pluto, bringing the best into our lives.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
How nice to read a positive post about Pluto! Usually people fear hard Pluto transits. Even if they are difficult, I think they can give people a lot more self-confidence once the transit is over. If you've been through some wretched stuff in your life when Pluto smashed your naivete to smithereens, you can feel stronger and more confident about your abilities to cope with future difficulties.

I am not a student of the Hindu religion, but I believe they have a concept called samsara, in which life moves as a series of attachments-- that ultimately prove to be futile. In grasping Plutonian futility, we can let go of attachments that ultimately prove to be empty of value.

In the meantime, yes! Let's eat more strawberries! With gusto!
 

MaeMae

Banned
Pluto is less scary to me than Neptune.
I have a loving relationship with Pluto, Uranus & Saturn.
I feel they are looking out in my chart for the better me.
 

Rebel Uranian

Well-known member
Pluto is less scary to me than Neptune.
I have a loving relationship with Pluto, Uranus & Saturn.
I feel they are looking out in my chart for the better me.

Honestly I'm currently in favor of ignoring Pluto due to its size and orbit, and taking its associations and moving them to Neptune and Uranus by their yin or yang characteristics. It helps Neptune a lot but does Uranus no favor. I think Neptune was "designed" just to be superficial and gross.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Well, maybe we should resurrect Ceres. In 2006 astronomers upgraded its status from asteroid to dwarf planet, and it is within the orbit of the traditional seven.

Neptune is a subjective planet of illusion and disillusionment. It shows how and where we can be highly idealistic and attuned to otherworldly insights. It can also show where life looks worse than it objectively is.
 

JerryRR

Well-known member
Marie Curie,Pluto?

Physicist and Chemist.
First woman Professor at University of Paris.
Studied at Warsaws' Flying University.
First Women to win Nobel Prize.
Only women to win N P in two fields.(1903 & 1911)
Died on 4 July 1934 from apastic anemia contracted from long-term exposure to radiation.

J.R.
 
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Rebel Uranian

Well-known member
Well, maybe we should resurrect Ceres. In 2006 astronomers upgraded its status from asteroid to dwarf planet, and it is within the orbit of the traditional seven.

Neptune is a subjective planet of illusion and disillusionment. It shows how and where we can be highly idealistic and attuned to otherworldly insights. It can also show where life looks worse than it objectively is.

I've been thinking of that. Ceres makes more sense to use than Pluto. (Not meaning that it means the same thing as Pluto, just that it fits more strict criteria to be used as a planet regardless of how it functions.)

So Neptune can do what Saturn does? Then what's Saturn for?


Marie Curie,Pluto?

Physicist and Chemist.
First woman Professor at University of Paris.
Studied at Warsaws' Flying University.
First Women to win Nobel Prize.
Only women to win N P in two fields.(1903 & 1911)
Died on 4 July 1934 from apastic anemia contracted from long-term exposure to radiation.

J.R.

Would you explain?
 
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dhundhun

Well-known member
Ceres and Pluto has different role in chart, they can't be exchanged.

One going extreme is nurturing aura, the other one going extreme nuke.

In terms of environment, Ceres is like pleasing and nurturing environment, Pluto is like killer nuclear radiation.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Rebel Uranian--

Saturn and Neptune have very different operating modes. Saturn deals with the material world, whereas Neptune deals with an imaginative or mystical world. Liz Greene in her book on Neptune explained Neptune as a longing to sacrifice one's ego in order to merge with the divine. It can lead to a rich imagination or healthy spirituality. Where this process gets short-circuited, we find Neptune encouraging indulgence in escapism, be it through drugs or endless TV-viewing. Saturn, on the other hand, is all about duty, hard work, and working within life's material limits.

Both planets can indicate disappointments, but then that's true of lunar "hurt feelings" or a suppressed Jupiter.

Ceres may have a nurturing side, but it also seems to function as a malefic on occasion. Sometimes it is prominent in charts of natural disasters, or in natal charts of people with eating disorders (Ceres square Pluto or Saturn.) I've spent a fair bit of time looking at Ceres in natal charts, and it doesn't seem to function entirely in the Big Momma department. I've also read that Ceres can be prominent in people's lives during periods of extreme grief.

The principal Ceres/Demeter myth is really about loss and redemption. The cult of Demeter (the Greek name for the heavenly body today, and their agricultural goddess, to whom Roman Ceres became assimilated) was huge and longstanding in the ancient world. This goddess definitely had a punitive and law-giving side, as well as ownership of grain specifically and food more generally.

dhundun, I've tried to explain above that Pluto is a lot more nuanced!
 

MaeMae

Banned
Not to detract -
my thoughts on redemption.
pluto.
neptune never has others' redemption. neptune can't/won't accept/acknowledge involvements, therefore, redemption can not be received.
however, neptune finds redemption in self-fullfilled thoughts. "Nobody understands. I was trying to do the right thing. Why did this happen? I don't get it. I did nothing wrong. I meant no harm. I can live with myself."
Ignorance is bliss when to understand wimplications would incriminate..
Pluto stands in the distance ~ watching you from behind. Nothing escaping his truthful sting.
Even Uranus can forget a lie if there's a twist to the storu that creates excitement. They'll know it's a lie ~ good enough for their soul ~ but they'll play along wreclessly, knowing however it comes out - they'll be free of guilt.
pluto stands back unseen and then comes out for his pound of flesh.
 

Rebel Uranian

Well-known member
Not to detract -
my thoughts on redemption.
pluto.
neptune never has others' redemption. neptune can't/won't accept/acknowledge involvements, therefore, redemption can not be received.
however, neptune finds redemption in self-fullfilled thoughts. "Nobody understands. I was trying to do the right thing. Why did this happen? I don't get it. I did nothing wrong. I meant no harm. I can live with myself."
Ignorance is bliss when to understand wimplications would incriminate..
Pluto stands in the distance ~ watching you from behind. Nothing escaping his truthful sting.
Even Uranus can forget a lie if there's a twist to the storu that creates excitement. They'll know it's a lie ~ good enough for their soul ~ but they'll play along wreclessly, knowing however it comes out - they'll be free of guilt.
pluto stands back unseen and then comes out for his pound of flesh.

I can't understand this yet...
 

MaeMae

Banned
most people don't

hmmm, let's see ~
think of the catepillar that was doing juuuuust fiiiiiiine in life, until he learned he would be no more. He surrendered to the enevitable and thereby redeemed himself by becoming a beautiful butterfly.
or think of a salmon that travels all the way out of its element of sea into fresh water, swims against currents for hundreds of miles just to jump mini waterfalls to get to a place to drop a load of eggs and die. or however that works...
 
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