Is Pluto an astrological planet?

I do get it, its just that I don't think the comparison given regarding the multiple meanings of a house in a chart is evidence that astrology requires different approaches for its different branches.

The end point of the discussion would be to drop the "theoretical" part, and test practicality of rulers.

Horary is the fastest and easiest way, that is why we suggest it. But you'd also employ Mars on horary rather than pluto, because in your technique they are "co-rulers" and both may apply.

Sooo.... unless someone comes up with a non-biased "test" of sorts in which we can compare Mars and pluto, in a field in which according to your technique pluto applies instead of Mars, then there really is no point in discussing theory, because we'll get nowhere with it.

Thus, there isn't really a point in having the discussion anymore, since neither of us will change their minds.

Dirius,

I'm attaching a mundane event chart, of the dropping of the first atomic bomb in Hiroshima, Japan in 1945.

But we can easily assume or imagine that a baby was born at this time.

Or, we could call this a decumbiture chart, of a person taken seriously ill at this time-- not at ground zero, but geographically close enough for the chart to be valid.

So how would you interpret the attached chart, using the identical concepts, as:

1. the mundane event

2. a nativity-- as a character or personality analysis.

3. the decumbiture.

waybread,

Mundane astrology is a chart done for the year, concerning a Nation and how it will do in the year. What you are posting is an event chart, at most.

1. I don't think the chart will do any good, because as Oddity pointed out to you on another thread, the Sun rules the atomic energy (source of energy), and is placed in its regency, next to pluto, so anything you could delineate through pluto, you could delineate with the Sun, so it is sort of a dead end conversation.

2. Event astrology is not something we all buy in, or use. There is elective astrology which is different, which is choosing a right time to do something.

I am however interested in watching how you delineate or link the atomic explosion, to pluto (or the other outers for the matter). So if you want, please go ahead.

Dirius said:

waybread,

Mundane astrology is a chart done for the year, concerning a Nation and how it will do in the year. What you are posting is an event chart, at most.

Click to expand...

Dirius, you are mistaken about the scope of mundane astrology. A chart for the year is but one of many types of mundane charts that could be constructed. See: N. Campion, "Mundane Astrology," in James R. Lewis, ed., The Astrology Book, pp.473-477; the definition in F. Gettings, The Arkana Dictionary of Astrology; C. E. O. Carter's Introduction to Political Astrology; or http://www.skyscript.co.uk/ingresses.html .

We distinguish mundane from nativities, horary, astro-meteorology, and other types of charts. Surely you can see how the dropping of the first atomic bomb had a huge impact on the nation of Japan!

We can do event charts for people, nations, or, well-- events.

1. I don't think the chart will do any good, because as Oddity pointed out to you on another thread, the Sun rules the atomic energy (source of energy), and is placed in its regency, next to pluto, so anything you could delineate through pluto, you could delineate with the Sun, so it is sort of a dead end conversation.

Click to expand...

No, Oddity inferred or invented this rulership (so much for tradition,) and I pointed out its inconsistency. But do go ahead and interpret the chart using your traditional concepts and techniques as an event chart for Japan, if you prefer. We have the sun domiciled in Leo according to traditional astrology, but since this transit happens annually without such a world-changing event, that's barely a start at a reading. What else can you say about it, using your traditional concepts and methods?

2. Event astrology is not something we all buy in, or use. There is elective astrology which is different, which is choosing a right time to do something.

Click to expand...

Seriously, Dirius, the Skyscript article I linked above states that mundane astrology is one of the oldest forms of astrology there is. This article focused in ingresses, but you will see lots of events referenced within this important sub-field of astrology.

Since you are such an uncompromising proponent of traditional astrology, understandably, I would assume your expertise in its various branches.

I am however interested in watching how you delineate or link the atomic explosion, to pluto (or the other outers for the matter). So if you want, please go ahead.

Click to expand...

Oh, no, Dirius-- after you! And then I would like to see, subsequently, how you would delineate the same chart as a nativity or decumbiture chart, using your traditional concepts and methods.

In multiple posts you've argued for traditional astrology's consistency across its different sub-fields. I'd love to see how this works for you.

I think everyone on this thread knows that Skyscript is a site dedicated to traditional western astrology, although not exclusively so. Here is a list of articles on this site about mundane astrology.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/books.html#ma

But speaking of ingresses as a tool of mundane astrology, whether traditional or modern, that Uranus conjunct the MC is pretty interesting. According to the Skyscript article cited above, Uranus rules explosions, and the 10th house rules the government in authority. Which surrendered on Sept. 2, 1945.

you see waybread,

You posted the chart, according to your definitions of what mundane is, quoting its veracity by a modern astrologer.

So the chart you are posting is concerning your technique not mine.

So, like I said, I am truly interested in looking at how you delineate the chart, and link pluto to that event. Because after all, it is your technique.

Then I can give you mine according to my technique. Its like when unique_astrlogy posted the transits chart: we don't use transits, so hoping for us to delineate something regarding transits, would be a bit pointless.

We traditionals use the Sun's entry in Aries for mundane charts. Works like a solar return.

Whatever you use for event, is a technique used by you, not me.

waybread said:

No, Oddity inferred or invented this rulership (so much for tradition,) and I pointed out its inconsistency.

Click to expand...

What's the problem here, Waybread? The Sun is the source of heat and light, and it makes its own energy by way of nuclear fission. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in seeing Sun/Sun-Mars as an explosion of heat or nuclear energy. I'm also pretty sure that 'inference' is not against the rules of traditional astrology. Traditional astrologers seldom spent more than a couple of sentences on aspects, for example (aside from cookbooks), because given that if you knew planets, houses, signs, and degrees, you should be able to put together what they meant.

Or are you suggesting that if a rulership wasn't created before 1300, it can't possibly be traditional?

If you see traditional astrology as slipshod, or us as slipshod - I guess just say so. Perhaps you already did. You've made it eminently clear that you're not a fan of traditional methods, you don't accept traditional methods, and you don't want to learn traditional methods.

Which is all fine, just as long as you realise that a few people are interested in traditional astrology and that's okay too.

Dirius, unfortunately your recent posts increasingly indicate the limits to your knowledge of astrology, both traditional and modern. And that's OK. Hopefully we are all learning, ongoingly. But an earlier stage of learning does not (yet) give you a solid platform from which to critique modern astrology as a whole, by way of a corollary that Pluto as a modern planet is meaningless in horoscope interpretation.

You have repeatedly made a case for neo-traditional astrology on the grounds that it is conceptually more consistent across the sub-disciplines than modern astrology is. By way of debating your position, I have offered you a simple opportunity to demonstrate the validity of your thesis. If you don't like the Hiroshima chart I posted (where modern planets are highly salient,) that's OK. Please substitute another chart that is more to your liking that can be interpreted across 3 or more sub-fields of astrology.

Dirius said:

you see waybread,

You posted the chart, according to your definitions of what mundane is, quoting its veracity by a modern astrologer.

So the chart you are posting is concerning your technique not mine.

Click to expand...

Not at all, Dirius. I am surprised that you haven't studied traditional mundane astrology, either. Apparently you are unfamiliar with the sources I cited, which is why I provided the on-line links to Skyscript.

Please cite the authoritative source for your highly restrictive definition of mundane astrology. Then see how you get on with the truly traditional mundane astrology articles linked in my previous post, at Skyscript. Nicholas Campion (entry in Lewis's encyclopedia of astrology,) is the foremost historian of astrology in the English language today. He's well versed in traditional astrology. The Arkana dictionary is a compendium of terms both traditional and modern.

By all means, skip C. E. O. Carter if you like! You might prefer Benjamin Dykes's translation of Bonatti on Mundane Astrology. You are familiar with Dykes as a foremost translator of traditional astrology works into English; and Guido Bonatti as one of the giants of medieval astrology. If you don't already own a copy, it is available through amazon.com as an immediately available Kindle book for $US 8.31.

Of course, I left out Noel Tyl's book (too modern,) or the literature on mundane astrology in Vedic astrology.

Also, the Hiroshima chart I posted is on-file at the Astrodienst Astro-DataBank, so you can log in and redraft the chart using your preferred house system, excluding modern planets and points, inputting some additional lots or fixed stars, &c. (Sorry-- you know this already.)

So, like I said, I am truly interested in looking at how you delineate the chart, and link pluto to that event. Because after all, it is your technique.

Click to expand...

You are very generous, Dirius. But I actually didn't state that I have a my particular "technique" here. (I would have several.) And I wouldn't think of usurping your pride of place here. Hey, you might even convince me of the (supposed) error of my ways!

Then I can give you mine according to my technique. Its like when unique_astrlogy posted the transits chart: we don't use transits, so hoping for us to delineate something regarding transits, would be a bit pointless.

Click to expand...

All the more reason for you to show me how a real traditional astrologer would interpret the Hiroshima event, without considering transits. And BTW, feel free to interpret it according to your own definition of mundane astrology, if you prefer.

We traditionals use the Sun's entry in Aries for mundane charts. Works like a solar return.

Whatever you use for event, is a technique used by you, not me.

Click to expand...

Wonderful, Dirius. I look forward to seeing how you would use the sun's ingress into Aries for the spring equinox of 1945, Hiroshima, Japan. As you know, you can cast the chart at Astrodienst, using whatever house system, &c. you want. They have a feature whereby you can shut out the modern planets, add fixed stars, &c. I hope you will attach this chart to your next post.

Unless you'd prefer to do the nativity or decumbiture interpretations first.

But I have to stop you when you say, "We traditionals...." As you know from the Skyscript articles I linked, traditional mundane astrology does include event charts plus other sorts of ingresses for historical analysis or predictive purposes.

What point in space were the Moon and Saturn transiting when a nuclear weapon was used against humans for the first time in recorded history? See the attachment. NOTE: On the day of it's discovery Pluto only moved less than 1 tiny minute of arc the entire day - not even 60 seconds.

Oddity said:

What's the problem here, Waybread? The Sun is the source of heat and light, and it makes its own energy by way of nuclear fission. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in seeing Sun/Sun-Mars as an explosion of heat or nuclear energy. I'm also pretty sure that 'inference' is not against the rules of traditional astrology. Traditional astrologers seldom spent more than a couple of sentences on aspects, for example (aside from cookbooks), because given that if you knew planets, houses, signs, and degrees, you should be able to put together what they meant.

Click to expand...

Sorry, Oddity, but let's not mix apples and oranges here. I don't think I'm mistaken in saying that you inferred or invented the sun as the ruler of nuclear bombs. (vs. Pluto in modern astrology.) In the Uranus thread, I said that I didn't think the sun was a good match, because we aren't talking about fission per se, but about nuclear bombs. Nuclear bombs are weapons of mass destruction. Deborah Houlding, a foremost authority on traditional astrology, in a couple of exchanges with me on the Skyscript forum, clearly argued that the sun was traditionally understood as the source of life.

Estimates are not precise, but something over 60,000 people died either directly or within 4 months as a result of radiation burns and poisoning from the nuclear bomb dropped on Hiroshima. (This isn't counting the second atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki.)

Maybe a conservative trad could make a case for a Mars (warfare, hot-dry) and Saturn (destruction, desolation) combo, but this isn't how you interpreted nuclear bombs.

(To a modern astrologer, Pluto as the god of death seems like a better match.)

I'm not sure about your reference to transits. I posted a mundane astrology event chart. An ingress is a type of transit, but then looking at an ingress is a traditional technique.

Or are you suggesting that if a rulership wasn't created before 1300, it can't possibly be traditional?

Click to expand...

Well, this is a classic loaded question, Oddity! http://www.fallacyfiles.org/loadques.html

Shall we unpack it? In the Anglophone world, traditional astrology predominated till about 1700, with a very few practitioners still doing traditional astrology till the mid-1800s. So I don't see 1300 as diagnostic. Then we need to distinguish between historical-traditional astrology of the past, and neo-traditional astrology today. We can't rely on historical-traditional for atomic bombs: they weren't invented yet. Maybe you can find a historical-traditional ruler for historical explosives like gunpowder. (Mars??)

But if you wish to say that the sun (not Pluto or Uranus) rules atomic bombs, then you are inventing this thematic rulership. Maybe you do so in keeping with your Aristotelian principles as best you know, but then it is still a creative act. (Sort of what you think modern astrologers do, no?)

If you see traditional astrology as slipshod, or us as slipshod - I guess just say so. Perhaps you already did. You've made it eminently clear that you're not a fan of traditional methods, you don't accept traditional methods, and you don't want to learn traditional methods.

Which is all fine, just as long as you realise that a few people are interested in traditional astrology and that's okay too.

Click to expand...

Speaking of inventing things, please do not invent or imagine what I think about traditional astrology. I've said repeatedly-- and to you personally on the Uranus thread, Oddity--that I am happy if people want to do traditional astrology. Really. I do take exception to efforts by a couple of trads on this forum to discourage or bully other people out of practising modern astrology, via threads about Pluto. That crosses the line.

Notice that I never called your work "slipshod"-- but is this the word you would apply to modern astrology?

For the record, I have studied traditional astrology, in the sense that I've read and own a few primary and secondary sources on it. My big interest is in the historical origins of astrology, so I've read Ptolemy, Manilius, Dorotheus, Vettius Valens, Firmicus Maternus, Rhetorius, plus a couple of shorter works in English translation. I've read and own several academic histories of traditional astrology, some with a focus on the Hellenists. I've read and own primers on traditional astrology methods by recent authors Avelar & Rebeiro, Dykes, and Barclay on horary. I own and have spot-read J. Lee Lehman on traditional and horary astrology, Barbara Dunn on horary, and Kevin Burk on nativities (though he's essentially modern, with add-ons.) I have also read or spot-read a lot of material on Skyscript, Lilly, Lilly's translation of Bonatti, Culpeper, and articles on websites of Robert Schmidt, Chris Brennan, plus others less comprehensively. I have a big file of scholarly articles on ancient astrology, by authors such as Neugebauer and his associates, Pingree, and Lehoux.

However, it is important to learn by doing, as well as reading, so in an effort to learn horary astrology using traditional techniques, I do read horary charts for people using just the traditional rulerships.

But honestly, Oddity: traditional astrology just doesn't sing for me. I began studying modern astrology ca. 1990, and it is what I love for chart interpretation.

Bob, thanks. I just feel that even if trads do good work restricting themselves to those traditional planets, some charts just scream out for using the modern outers.

But I'd be happy for Kai, Dirius, Oddity, or other trads to show how they would interpret Hiroshima. No doubt we'd all learn something.

(Dirius, sorry- after what I just posted to you, maybe I will jump the gun slightly.)

We've got that Uranus-Mars combo in the 9th house of foreign governments (some would put them in the 7th, with the 9th relating to transportation such as aircraft-- such as the Enola Gay,) with Uranus moving into the 10th house of Japan's own government. The sun is still conjunct Pluto, and would have crossed it during the final planning stages of this operation. We see the moon ("the people") in a partile conjunction with Saturn (hardship) in a house dealing with the future.

Pluto is in an exact sextile with Mars: the god of death and the god of war.

This chart doesn't show them, but Astrodienst's supplementary PDF data on this chart show a lot of planets at the same declination degree (parallel or counter-parallel, read like a conjunction or opposition, respectively.) Venus-Mars-Saturn are parallel at the same degree (21 N). Moon-Pluto*-NN are parallel at the same degree (23 N) and pretty close to Venus-Mars-Saturn.

Just to translate: in modern mundane astrology, as in traditional astrology, each planet rules multiple phenomena. Modernly, among which are: the moon symbolizes the people of Japan, and where the public's attention is focused. Saturn shows a sense of public sorrow as well as the demographic death rate. Uranus would indicate explosions, but most would put Pluto as the ruler of genocide or mass destruction of life.

(In terms of Pluto's phoenix-like qualities, Japan did emerge from its ashes as a major economic and industrial power.)

*Pluto is actually out-of-bounds at 23o 28'45", meaning that it operates outside-the-box of what is known and normative.

I might mention that traditionally a planet close to the sun is combust: weakened. I haven't found this to be the case, from a modern astrology perspective. Rather, the sun gives a kind of identity to the chart, and a planet conjunct the sun shows what the individual (nativity) or event (mundane) identifies with. The identity of this event is so clearly tied up with mass destruction-- modernly symbolized by Pluto. In mundane astrology the sun is another indicator of the governmental authority (traditionally the king or ruler, Japan's emperor is still the titular head) so Pluto's impact on the sun would seem related to the emperor's surrender a few weeks later.

The first house in mundane indicates the country as a whole, generally. To me as a modern astrologer, that Jupiter-Chiron-Neptune cluster looks like massive disillusionment (a trad might note Jupiter in detriment.)

There's a lot more to the chart, but this is a start.

I might mention that before the horrors of nuclear bombs, fallout, and proliferation were understood, Americans thought their developing and dropping the bomb first was a good thing, that would quickly lead to the end of WW II. Which it did, but at a terrible price.

waybread said:

Notice that I never called your work "slipshod"-- but is this the word you would apply to modern astrology?

Click to expand...

I think it would be fair to say there's a lot of slipshod in astrology, full stop. That being said, there are modern astrologers whose work I follow because they do good work! Mark Jones (not Mark Edmund) is a psychologist who uses evolutionary astrology (a phrase that by itself usually makes me cringe) with clients. I'm not going to start delineating Pluto, but he's got some good ideas on other aspects of astrological practise that are worth listening to. Why throw out the baby with the bathwater?

I don't recall trashing anyone for wonky beliefs they may hold or whatever astrology they practise - here or anywhere else. I don't do things like that. But you seem to think that all traditional astrology is an attack on modern astrology, and I do not understand that. I can't count half a dozen traditional astrologers on this board, and of the very few that are here - they don't seem like a badly behaved bunch. Who's attacking modern astrology? Is a criticism the same as an attack?

As to the rest, I don't think you're going to find a traditional astrologer who says the sun is always benefic, does no harm, and has no rulerships over harmful things. I'm not sure you'd even find that in modern astrology.

Only I think your mind is already made up, so there really isn't much point in talking about it.

Think about it for a second waybread.

Mundane astrology predicts the fate of nations before they happen.

This is why they use a set date, for a yearly prediction.

This is why a chart for the year is made.

We don't do event charts in traditional mundane. Because if I had to predict something through event charts, I would have to make a chart for every minute, of every day, for the entire year. And that is not....efficient.

What Bonatti refers to is elective astrology in which the person picks the date to do a specific event, which is a very different thing.

waybread said:

Pluto is in an exact sextile with Mars: the god of death and the god of war.

Click to expand...

Pluto sextiles mars = atomic bombing.

Here is an event chart for last month, pluto sextiles mars:

Oddity said:

...But you seem to think that all traditional astrology is an attack on modern astrology, and I do not understand that. I can't count half a dozen traditional astrologers on this board, and of the very few that are here - they don't seem like a badly behaved bunch. Who's attacking modern astrology? Is a criticism the same as an attack?

As to the rest, I don't think you're going to find a traditional astrologer who says the sun is always benefic, does no harm, and has no rulerships over harmful things. I'm not sure you'd even find that in modern astrology.

Only I think your mind is already made up, so there really isn't much point in talking about it.

Click to expand...

Oddity, I don't see how you could read what I write and still say this!!! I have clarified my position multiple times, on this and other threads. Nothing that I have written could lead a careful reader to your conclusions.

Once more, with feeling. If traditional astrologers love traditional astrology, that's great. More power to their wheel!

And they need to grant modern astrologers the same courtesy that they want for themselves.

I have not accused you of trying to suppress modern astrology, Oddity. I will let the others' posts on this and the "confused about Pluto" threads speak for themselves.

If my "mind were made up" as you imply, why would I be reading all that traditional astrology?

Dirius, I hope that you will read more widely about the scope of astrology-- both traditional and modern.-- than you have done to date.

Dirius said:

Mundane astrology predicts the fate of nations before they happen.

This is why they use a set date, for a yearly prediction.

This is why a chart for the year is made.

We don't do event charts in traditional mundane. Because if I had to predict something through event charts, I would have to make a chart for every minute, of every day, for the entire year. And that is not....efficient.

What Bonatti refers to is elective astrology in which the person picks the date to do a specific event, which is a very different thing.

Click to expand...

What authoritative sources can you cite for me, Dirius, to bolster your statements?

Dirius, it is increasingly clear to me that you do not understand the meaning or practice of mundane astrology. It was the first type of astrology practiced-- in ancient Mesopotamia. Ptolemy wrote an extensive section on mundane astrology in Tetrabiblos (ca. 150 CE,) which had a lot to do with national character (ethnic stereotyping by the stars.) Mundane astrology is a broad field. Thematically it deals with affairs of state, historical and current events, politics, economies, the military, societies, and nations. We thematically distinguish mundane astrology from genethliacal (nativities), horary, medical, and meteorological astrology; although all of the branches of astrology can overlap around specific questions.

Are you familiar with any of the work of Nicholas Campion? He is highly respected as the foremost academic historian of astrology in the English language. In "Mundane Astrology," in Lewis's encyclopedia of astrology, pp. 473-477" Campion wrote:

"Traditionally it had two main functions. First, to understand the past. And second, to predict the future. Both functions, though, are subsumed under a greater purpose-- to manage the present."

In ages past, mundane astrology focused more on the individual ruler, in whose hands the fate of society and the nation rested. When a question concerns a US president, it might still be individually focused. There can be overlap between astrology's thematic branches. Which shouldn't matter to you if you use the same concepts and techniques regardless.

As Campion notes, in the Middle Ages, "mundane astrology had a narrower remit and was known as the study of...the revolutions of Jupiter and Saturn, which together were seen as the main timers of history.... The sun's ingress into Aries was also known as a 'revolution'." Medieval astrologers also looked at eclipses, comets, lunar phases, "and planetary transits."

In the 1600s, William Lilly was consulted for his predictions on England's civil war.

Within mundane astrology, electional astrology has a place. Electional astrology is simply selection of the best time to initiate a project or to plan an event. Electional has a place across the thematic branches of astrology. (When is a good time for them to get married? When should I schedule my elective surgery?) In its more traditional form, it uses the moon in a comparable way to horary astrology.

Today both traditional and modern astrologers do event charts in both mundane and genethliacal astrology. If you read the Skyscript articles I linked yesterday, you will see traditional astrologers looking at specific events, such as shipping disasters.

But by all means, Dirius-- cast and read a chart for the sun's Aries ingress in 1945 for Hiroshima. I would like to see how you do it, minus the modern outers.

Dirius said:

Pluto sextiles mars = atomic bombing.

Here is an event chart for last month, pluto sextiles mars:

Click to expand...

Thanks for posting it, Dirius. Would you like a review of all of the military conflict occurring around the world in early 2015, or would you prefer to post it yourself?

http://www.cfr.org/global/global-conflict-tracker/p32137#!/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts


Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Nigeria, Yemen, Ukraine, Somalia, Libya, Sudan,.....drug wars within Mexico, IS (ISIS, ISIL's) extraordinary brutality, with recorded beheadings, mass executions, and sexual slavery/rape as instruments of territorial control.....) US negotiations with Iran over nuclear weapons....

Of course, no good astrologer of any persuasion would base an event delineation on just this axis. After all, Mars sextiles Pluto 2 times during the 2-year Mars cycle, not counting retrogradation.

We have to look at the whole chart. Which includes the multi-year Uranus-Pluto square.

waybread said:

Dirius, I hope that you will read more widely about the scope of astrology-- both traditional and modern.-- than you have done to date.

What authoritative sources can you cite for me, Dirius, to bolster your statements?

Dirius, it is increasingly clear to me that you do not understand the meaning or practice of mundane astrology. It was the first type of astrology practiced-- in ancient Mesopotamia. Ptolemy wrote an extensive section on mundane astrology in Tetrabiblos (ca. 150 CE,) which had a lot to do with national character (ethnic stereotyping by the stars.) Mundane astrology is a broad field. Thematically it deals with affairs of state, historical and current events, politics, economies, the military, societies, and nations. We thematically distinguish mundane astrology from genethliacal (nativities), horary, medical, and meteorological astrology; although all of the branches of astrology can overlap around specific questions.

Are you familiar with any of the work of Nicholas Campion? He is highly respected as the foremost academic historian of astrology in the English language. In "Mundane Astrology," in Lewis's encyclopedia of astrology, pp. 473-477" Campion wrote:

"Traditionally it had two main functions. First, to understand the past. And second, to predict the future. Both functions, though, are subsumed under a greater purpose-- to manage the present."

In ages past, mundane astrology focused more on the individual ruler, in whose hands the fate of society and the nation rested. When a question concerns a US president, it might still be individually focused. There can be overlap between astrology's thematic branches. Which shouldn't matter to you if you use the same concepts and techniques regardless.

As Campion notes, in the Middle Ages, "mundane astrology had a narrower remit and was known as the study of...the revolutions of Jupiter and Saturn, which together were seen as the main timers of history.... The sun's ingress into Aries was also known as a 'revolution'." Medieval astrologers also looked at eclipses, comets, lunar phases, "and planetary transits."

In the 1600s, William Lilly was consulted for his predictions on England's civil war.

Within mundane astrology, electional astrology has a place. Electional astrology is simply selection of the best time to initiate a project or to plan an event. Electional has a place across the thematic branches of astrology. (When is a good time for them to get married? When should I schedule my elective surgery?) In its more traditional form, it uses the moon in a comparable way to horary astrology.

Today both traditional and modern astrologers do event charts in both mundane and genethliacal astrology. If you read the Skyscript articles I linked yesterday, you will see traditional astrologers looking at specific events, such as shipping disasters.

But by all means, Dirius-- cast and read a chart for the sun's Aries ingress in 1945 for Hiroshima. I would like to see how you do it, minus the modern outers.

Click to expand...

Traditional Astrology is hierarchical
Mundane astrology has been mentioned
and
in mundane astrological prediction there is an hierarchy of charts
as an example for the location of New York

starting with:

Grand Conjunction 1702
21 May 1702
4:01:37 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York
074°W00'37"
40°N42'26"


Great Mutation (Earth) 1802
17 Jul 1802
5:52:26 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


Great Malefic 1976
12 May 1976
9:51:13 AM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


…...............................................................................................................
HOWEVER

this chart....


Great Malefic 2004
25 May 2004
1:20 AM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


....is now the operating Malefic Chart until....


Great Malefic 2034
26 Jun 2034
5:33:42 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


becomes operative

and also


Great Mutation (Air) & Great Conjunction 2020
21 Dec 2020
1:24:22 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


….........................................................................................................

MEANWHILE

Great Conjunction 2000
28 May 2000
11:07:39 AM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


2014 Aries Ingress
20 Mar 2014
11:57:07 AM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


....Insert Your Natal Chart and/or 'Event Chart' Here.....

That is the hierarchy of charts in Mundane Astrology


Note:

Relocate the chart(s) to your country

and

for maximum accuracy
use the "foundation point"


eg: Romania = Alba Iulia, not Bucharesti

Japan = Kyoto, not Tokyo

Spain = Toledo, not Madrid

and so on

waybread said:

We have to look at the whole chart.

Click to expand...

For Mundane Astrology
an hierarchy of charts
as already detailed
is a necessary consideration
and not solely an event chart

Of course, I'll show you why we traditionals use Mars as ruler of Scorpio. Using mundane astrology, as you proposed.

We take the chart for the quarter of the year, corresponding with the Sun's entry into one of the Cardinal signs. Japan surrenders to the Allied powers on September 2, 1945. This means the end of the war, and Japan's defeat happens in the 2nd quarter of the year (after the Summer solstice, before the Spring equinox).

We take 22 June 1945, Kyoto (Japan's capital city), 3:53 AM, the moment the Sun enters Cancer.

I analyze the chart using Whole Signs (thanks JUPASC for the explanation on the astro.com charts)

In a chart about a country at war we will look for:

The 1st house = The country as a whole, the people
The 10th house = The goverment or King of the country
The 2nd house = The economy of the country
The 6th house = The army and military forces of the country
The 7th house = Enemy of the country (foreign countries)
The 12th house = The enemy army of the foreign country (turned 6th)

Lets look at the general state of most of the planets ruling the houses:

- The ruler of the 10th (Jupiter), in Virgo its detriment. By that time the japanese goverment was already entering negotions for surrendering, knowing the war could not be won, mostly fighting a defensive war. The goverment and military also experienced multiple replacements, and dismissals in this period. So the goverment was not going to be ok...

- The ruler of the 2nd (Moon), in Scorpio its fall. Clearly the economy wasn't going to be ok either. By 1945 Japan had lost all of its conquests in the pacific, which were the source of Japan's main resources to fuel its war effort. Also they suffered the destruction of its merchant flee. So the economy was not doing well, and wasn't going to be ok....

- The ruler of the 6th house (Mars), in Taurus in its detriment. The japanese naval fleet was almost completly destroyed during this period, which in turn also affects its airforce. Japan had only its ground units to defend the country. It is also in the sign and house of the enemy army (in the power of the enemy army).

- The ruler of the 1st and 7th (Mercury-Jupiter): now here is an interesting thing. By this time Japan and the U.S had entered negotiations for Japan's surrender. However the negotiations never came through because of Japan's refusal to accept the U.S's terms of total surrender. However, it implies the will of both countries to end the war, given the mutual reception between them (Mercury in Jupiter's exaltation, Jupiter in Mercury's regency). Eventually both countries do end the war (Mercury applying sextile to Jupiter).

-The ruler of the 12th (Venus): in its regency, in its own house. Clearly the powerful american army was supreme in comparison with the japanese army, at this stage of the war. The ruler of the Allied army is strong and dominant over the japanese army.

The chart is clear: japan will suffer economic and military losses for this period.

Now here is whats interesting, if Mars wasn't the ruler of Scorpio (the 6th house), how could mars represent the devastated Japanese army?? When you take mars as the ruler, it shows very well its condition: detriment, inside the enemy's power (Mars inside the turned 6th house)

Mars is a much better fit as Scorpio's ruler, its easily seen on this chart.