Inviting thoughts on Pluto

miquar

Well-known member
Thanks Sequestra. So I guess he played predator and prey at his own death by eating as well. I just read all the lyrics and feel slightly sick!

It reminds me of Hannibal Lecter films where he seems to perform quite the cultured ritual when eating human flesh. If you haven't seen the films and don't want to know what happens stop reading now!

I thought the part in the third film - the prequel which shows him growing up - where one of the people who had killed his dying sister to eat her said (just before Hannibal killed him in revenge) 'But you ate her too.' And you realise that the cannibalism was not just a serial killer type thing as such, but a probably a reliving of something he couldn't process and perhaps even a way to stay close to his sister! Very Plutonian I think.
 

miquar

Well-known member
On 14 March 1930,Venetia Burney suggested Pluto as the name for the new Planet.
She has natal Sun and Pluto in Cancer.
Transiting Pluto con natal Sun and SA direction Pluto > con Sun.

J.R.

Thanks. That's really interesting. She gave Pluto its name, which because of its mythic connotations isn't merely a label but portrays the unique identity (Sun) of the planetary archetype. And Venetia no doubt felt very special (Sun) when she realised she had named the first new planet (as it was thought of then) to be discovered in nearly a hundred years.
 

JerryRR

Well-known member
Venetia died in 2009,aged 90.
t Pluto op r Pluto.
t Mars sq r Pluto op r Mars.
SA Pluto sq > r Pluto.
p Mars 150 r Pluto.

Her father SU/ME in Scorpio op Pluto in Taurus.

J.R.
 

Yuusha

Well-known member
Pluto is inescapable. When it shines a light on a theme, there is a serious compulsion to want to do something about it.

It shamelessly makes shaky structures fall apart and restart on a more solid footing. It doesn't care about people's feelings or a country's attachment to outdated traditions, it just does what it feels is necessary.

I've had this issue with philosophical beliefs, personal identity, career...

Pluto in Sagittarius was a very painful transit for me, but at least Pluto in Capricorn is easier to deal with now that I understand what the heck it's about.

I am afraid of Pluto transiting my 12th house though in Aquarius...
 

TransformingSelf

Well-known member
"The transforming power of the instincts?" Miquar, you speak my language. Let's break down what this phrase means because it will have answers. Instincts are your conscience, feelings that arrive from the soul, because of their elucidation of inner motivations, that bridge the past and the future.They are made of the past, because it is the past that molds identity, but they are soaked in the future because it is the future that holds the entire identity of the human, the unity between body and soul. What is the "transforming power" of these instincts? You have outlined the way "transforming power" works in the duality between the positive and negative aspects of Pluto in your opening. For transformation to happen, there has to be a change from one state to a different one. Instincts have this "transforming power" because they bring the individual away from the suppressed, buried self of the past, death-like state, to the liberated, accepted self of the future, new state of spiritual life. It explains why people turn to astrology during Pluto transits because they are looking for attainment of their spiritual selves, their reason for living. In the story, you shared, about the man who instructed his wife to leave a door closed and later killed her, there is a lesson about how transformation works. Though this story can represent different planets from that of Pluto, especially planets like Uranus and Mars for erratic violent energy, as so much of psychological motivation is unsaid in it, it reminds you of Pluto because of the death from living in secret that is in it. I actually interpreted this story metaphorically instead of literally, in that the wife's identity was killed because she lived by her husband's instincts instead of her own, living someone else's soul instead of her own. I can actually see this story as a metaphor for Pluto opposition Sun, where Pluto represents the woman's transforming instincts and the Sun represents her past habit or husband's instincts. She chose not to listen to Pluto's instincts in her by remaining in the sameness of the past state, choosing to live with secrets and letting them blight her from life, instead of taking Pluto's advice by listening to her own instincts and trusting in her self to unleash unknown secrets and find they are familiar information about who she is, thus bringing herself to life. By living with secrets, we are killing our identities because we suppress them from full disclosure and life. However, by listening to Pluto, the transforming instincts inside us, we are coming to be spiritually alive because we are confronting the secrets that hold us back and reconciling them as necessary facets of our identities that are there for us to meet our life purpose.
 

sandstone

Banned
miquar,

regarding the 'alchemical imagery of the Calcinatio' - the idea of getting an upper hand on our lower nature is a pervasive idea and seems to play into astrologers thoughts regarding pluto and the role it plays in an astro chart.. dividing our self into 2 - lower and higher is also a popular idea.. it reminds me of mercury and the sign gemini some - these 2 opposites always capable of pulling us one way or the other.. i think it was buddha that suggested the mind is the slayer of the real.. i think mercury plays that role here with jupiter shooting an arrow right down the middle...... the middle path has a nice ring to it..

a lot of those psychology astrologers get pretty dark and heavy as i see it.. they have a natural affinity for pluto and make it sound darker sometimes then i think it is.. i am not sure of just how much pluto connects with all the jungian psychological symbolism.. liz greene wrote the book - astrology and fate and a number of other astro books i have read.. i think she might be mixing a good degree of saturn with pluto but then she has these 2 in a conjunction being born in 46.. they are in leo as well, so saturn isn't fairing so well.. it is interesting as capricorn is on her 3rd house which does have something to say about communication style..

anyway, i am revising some of my long held conceptions around pluto and less inclined to dump everything that is dark and buried at plutos door step astrologically.. the mystery to a chart is definitely ongoing for me and i am less inclined to want to define things based on others thoughts..

we all have our own road to go down.. i don't claim to know much and i have always included pluto in the charts i examine.. i am exploring other ideas at this point and trying to break out of some of the long held positions that i have taken in astrology consciously.. maybe i am fooling myself.. i will admit the mystery of astrology, and the mystery to life is always apparent and ongoing.. i am more un-sure then ever before just how much of it can be laid at plutos doorstep.. it was a semi-conscious reason i mentioned eris earlier in the thread.. i say this having pluto somewhat prominent in my chart and the highest weighed planet using michael munkaseys midpoint weight analysis.. -pluto squares ascendant moon and is 135 sun, while conjunct jupiter in my chart. i have t pluto 6 minutes away from an exact square to my sun too... i am finding myself paying more attention to t saturn at this point in time and more generally in astrology.. cheers - james
 

Rebel Uranian

Well-known member
By living with secrets, we are killing our identities because we suppress them from full disclosure and life. However, by listening to Pluto, the transforming instincts inside us, we are coming to be spiritually alive because we are confronting the secrets that hold us back and reconciling them as necessary facets of our identities that are there for us to meet our life purpose.

It's bad to not be open about everything?

@sandstone - What's your view of Pluto? You saying that not everything secret is Pluto reminds me of how Kannon said that not all drugs are Neptune, since (not verbatim) "Cocaine activates the part of the brain activated in making money and it is particularly used by successful businesspeople. This itself has nothing to do with Neptune."

~Pluto 1' Sun/Moon midpoint and then some
 
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TransformingSelf

Well-known member
Not bad, Rebel Uranian. That's a judgment call that depends on the individual. It's only hindering to our own personal growth and evolution when we are not open about "ourselves" to "ourselves."
 

sandstone

Banned
rebel u - my view on pluto is in a state of transition.. i like all the imagery associated with pluto.. however i wonder if some of it belongs somewhere else.. death is a big thing.. transformation is a big deal too.. do we give all this symbolism and more to pluto, or can we save some for other bodies in the universe, or even share some of it with ones we already know about? i have some ambiguous feelings about it.. it would be nice if everything was so simple but as we know watching astrology unfold, nothing unfolds in the absence of other planets unfolding too.. we are left with a question at every turn of the road as i see it.. there are no simple answers.. life is a mystery and to lay the mystery at the doorstep of only one planet, or non planet seems short sighted.. death used to be symbolized by saturn, until pluto came along.. what about eris or some other planets or bodies that we don't have a handle on? i think pluto works in charts, but i am not exactly so sure anymore just how.. sorry for the opaque answer, but it is the best i can do..
 

JerryRR

Well-known member
"...progressions and transits involving Mars may provide an opportunity for the primitive,infantile passions to be experienced for the first time,..."

"Another planet which I associate with the calcinatio is Pluto.Where Mars is concerned with individual desire,Pluto is a more blindly instinctual drive."

Liz Greene,"Dynamics of the Unconscious."

When Meiwes killed and ate Brande,he was having a lunar return,Moon con Pluto.Mars return in Sag.Transit Mars con r Sun con Mars sq Pluto ssq Saturn.
Pluto square Pluto.Transiting Mars and Pluto in Sag.

Lecter was born in 1933,Harris born on 11 April.
11 April 1933.
Sun 21 Aries,Pluto 21 Cancer. SU/PL

J.R.
 

MaeMae

Banned
People with pluto aspects to personals have been invited by pluto to orchestrate their own transformartion and set course to move through darkness to find light (renewal/retribution/vindication ~ in the positive sense ~).
there's a line in a Jackson Browne song ~
"does it a take a death to learn a what life is worth?"
i think pluto answers "yes" ~
metaphorical deaths. the end of one part of ourselves that have to occur to precede a new life.
the age old question, "what am i here for? to live only to die? there must be something more than that." or however we phrase it.
for myself ~
moon-pluto square
sun-pluto quincunx
pluto/nn conjunction opp. snode/chiron in 8th.
pluto primed me to undergo several life transformations thus far. visiting the belly of the beast and getting out alive.
who could be the same after visiting our darkest realities, thoughts, behaviors, seeing the worst of ourselves or losing something/someone who was most dear and secure for us?
i think pluto-impacted charts make one willing to volunteer more readily. We force ourselves to see what we are made of in ways that make others cringe and shudder.
Plumbing the depths of the soul and being able to look at the sludge, the rot and realize ~ this can't be saved - is pluto's way of gifting us with new beginnings.
 

miquar

Well-known member
I can actually see this story as a metaphor for Pluto opposition Sun, where Pluto represents the woman's transforming instincts and the Sun represents her past habit or husband's instincts. She chose not to listen to Pluto's instincts in her by remaining in the sameness of the past state, choosing to live with secrets and letting them blight her from life, instead of taking Pluto's advice by listening to her own instincts and trusting in her self to unleash unknown secrets and find they are familiar information about who she is, thus bringing herself to life. By living with secrets, we are killing our identities because we suppress them from full disclosure and life. However, by listening to Pluto, the transforming instincts inside us, we are coming to be spiritually alive because we are confronting the secrets that hold us back and reconciling them as necessary facets of our identities that are there for us to meet our life purpose.

Hi Transforming Self. Just wanted to say thanks for sharing all those very deep thoughts in your post. I found the lines quoted above especially useful and profound.
 

miquar

Well-known member
miquar,

regarding the 'alchemical imagery of the Calcinatio' - the idea of getting an upper hand on our lower nature is a pervasive idea and seems to play into astrologers thoughts regarding pluto and the role it plays in an astro chart.. dividing our self into 2 - lower and higher is also a popular idea

Hi James. I don't see alchemical imagery as promoting a dualistic way of looking at things. It has always been seen as extremely heretical in the Christian world because it breaks away from the attempts of the established Christian church to indoctrinate people with dualistic ideas of good and evil, spirit and matter, etc. In alchemy the philosopher's stone, or Gold, is the same thing as the prima materia, or lead/faeces, that you begin with. Its about honouring that which is base in life in the right way, because it is actually 'God'. Or as Krishnamurti said, 'Unconditonal acceptance of the conditioned is the unconditioned.
 

sandstone

Banned
miquar,

i like looking at things cyclically as opposed to dualistic-ally, but the fact remains there are oppositions to any cycle which can be framed in dualistic terms..

maemae +
jackson browne song quote
""does it a take a death to learn a what life is worth?"
i think pluto answers "yes" ~

how does this differ from saturns answer?
 

MaeMae

Banned
sandstone ~
i think saturn's concern with life begins and ends on terra firma. saturn deals with life on what exists in our present reality.
pluto is subterranean.
saturn is about ife on earth, physical realities, day to day "management" of emotions / loss / changes that pluto has brought up to ground
on an internal level.
saturn values and achieves based on life on earth. his "worth" of one's life has more to do with practical realities. saturn likes to keep a good thing going and will do all that is required to keep them going, even when mounds of dirt are piled around him. pluto cares not about keeping anything going. he is constantly digging and not much regard for our life on earth as much as psyche and understanding and encountering mortality. saturn's worst fear is to die. pluto'ss worst fear is to not penetrate life before dying.
most saturnian's aren't interested in afterlife. the unknown is too difficult to manage. plutonian's know that there are so many layers to a life given, that the earthly life is tangential in the end.
dying and living again, over and again is pluto.
saturnians always feel like they're a day away from death ~ the unfinished symphony, the achievement not realized ~ at end ~ saturn will realize it meant nothing.
pluto lives and dies and lives again everyday.
in some way it is like never dying or really being born.
 
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miquar

Well-known member
miquar,

i like looking at things cyclically as opposed to dualistic-ally, but the fact remains there are oppositions to any cycle which can be framed in dualistic terms..

Sure - I agree. There will be times when we're in the alembic and times when we're riding high. But what didn't fit with my understanding of alchemy was when you said something like, 'With regard to alchemical imagery - getting the better of our lower natures is a pervasive idea in astrology.' Its a cycle between two very different experiences, but the alchemists knew that the archetypal core is the same throughout the whole cycle, and so they honoured and respected the base matter as much as the Gold.
 

dhundhun

Well-known member
I just posted an analysis about Pluto

...
The Pleiades, which is located in Taurus 29 can cause blindness. Helen Keller has her Asc Lord Pluto at that degree. (Note: She was born in 1880, stars has shifted by about 2 degrees and you have to add two degrees to her planet degrees to get today's degrees). That Pluto is opposing Asc.
...

Could be of interest to this thread.
 

TransformingSelf

Well-known member
Miquar, thank you for starting this inspirational thread! It was a super idea of yours. I absolutely loved reading everybody's Plutonian insights. I actually came to this forum because of Pluto and got into an argument over it with another member, much to my own dismay and shame. This is the thread on Sun square Pluto where I started here, and you will find stellar understandings of Pluto from the people in it: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34693 and a thread on Pluto transits among quite a few here: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=662

Waybread, I relate to you beyond words. There are times when I read your perspectives, and think that we have shared a part of the same path in this world. You have sensible wisdom that is settling and reassuring to find here. Yes, questions about why we are here have so much to do with gratitude, for being here, and for understanding what being human is about.
I can definitely see the Sun-Pluto opposition, you talk about, as a difficult relationship with the father, as I, too, have had a troublesome relationship with mine, which was brought to the forefront in the initial stages of Pluto square Sun. I interpreted Miquar's story about the wife leaving the door closed from my experience of having a Sun conditioned by past habit, by my father's personality, though in her case, she was affected by her husband, both husband and father being male, even considered substitutes for the other by some people. But in my experience, I have been feeling Pluto as those "instincts" that are stirring me to react in ways that I would not have in the past, when I was influenced by family upbringing and habit, which up till recently, had become my own personality. You've gone through the supervisors' and co-workers' power trips too! Your life is so much like mine. Absolutely, we may never know our life purpose, but astrology is making life here worthwhile.

MaeMae, I also relate to you beyond words. You and I have a love for the same music. Do you know that I was listening to Jackson Browne all weekend and when I saw that you quoted his lyrics, I was joyfully stunned. That man must have Pluto and Neptune inscribed all over his chart. We also forgot to mention him on our 80's Music Astrology thread!

Here's to Astrology Weekly for bringing us together, people with different astrological combinations, yet love for the same universe!
 
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