astrlogical interpretation discussion

rogue_red

Well-known member
Re: Dear Mama; a Capricorn's Plight

Astrologer4u, I apologise for the tone of my response to your post. I have deleted the post.

Rogue Red
 
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aquarius7000

Well-known member
Re: Dear Mama; a Capricorn's Plight

Hi there,

I have been reading through the posts, and would like to share just a few astrological observations from my side:

To Pluto
It is better to not see Pluto (just) as a planet of destruction. It is, as you say Rogue, a planet of transformation, but not of 'damnation'. The transformation, for eg, that it brings through death is not actually destruction, but renewal/to begin anew, if you will. Also, Pluto is a healer in its own way, in its own merciless way you could say perhaps. It is ruthless in making the native go beyond just scratching the surface, compelling the native to look into those deep, dark realms of the psyche in order to expose those/bring the obstacles - the buried pain to the surface, so this can be dealt with, and the process of cleansing onto a real transformation can start. The process obviously is not an easy one, and, if the native chooses to fight this (painful) process of transformation, it all indeed can feel/even be very destructive in the end. One can delve deeper into this subject, but let us not digress from the main topic all too far.

To North Node
It denotes 'growth' through the direction meant for us to be taken in this life, but this does not come easy. It is something we have to work for in order to reach our destination, attain our goals.

To the IC/MC points
This is still quite a debated subject - as in whether it is the IC or the MC that signifies the mother/father. Let us say that the IC/4th house denotes the roots/family/origin, so 'parents', in general, which form the family and home. This is not to say that there are no established theories on which point denotes what, but there are also many counter theories, which makes it all quite 'un-set' or debated.

To Chiron in Cancer
This indeed can show wounds related to the mother/motherly figure (Moon, natural ruler of Cancer clearly dentoes the mother and Cancer is the sign of the family and home life, of women in general, and esp of the mother/motherly figure.

To Capricorn
It actually is a sign of early maturity, even wisdom to a certain extent, both of which can indeed come through some sort of burden (be it through family/finances..) thatthe native might have to bear early in life.

To Cap Moon
One surely should not assume that Cap Moon will not let a person forget some past circumstance/painful experience at all in life (like I said earlier, nothing in the chart can dam-n a person to unresolved sufferings for a lifetime, there is free-will and other factors in a chart always to show the opposite). However, it can be rather challenging for a person with (personal) planets in Cap to (easily) let go of the past; Saturn rules Cap, and Saturn is a planet of the past, the old...

Astro 4U and Rogue, I just checked on the Sat-Chiron opposition, and found that it is almost 10°, and both these being rather slow-moving bodies, we perhaps should not count that opposition.


:)AQ7
 
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rogue_red

Well-known member
Re: Dear Mama; a Capricorn's Plight

aquarius7000 said:
Hi there,

I have been reading through the posts, and would like to share just a few astrological observations from my side:

To Pluto
It is better to not see Pluto (just) as a planet of destruction. It is, as you say Rogue, a planet of transformation, but not of 'damnation'. The transformation, for eg, that it brings through death is not actually destruction, but renewal/to begin anew, if you will. Also, Pluto is a healer in its own way, in its own merciless way you could say perhaps. It is ruthless in making the native scratch the surface, compelling the native to look into those deep, dark realms of the psyche in order to expose those/bring the obstacles - the buried pain to the surface, so this can be dealt with, and the process of cleansing onto a real transformation can start. The process obviously is not an easy one, and, if the native chooses to fight this (painful) process of transformation, it all indeed can feel/even be very destructive in the end. One can delve deeper into this subject, but let us not digress from the main topic all too far.

I totally agree that pluto is not a planet of damnation and have never asserted it was, but it is representative of destruction thru which transformation comes. Each planet is a lord unto itself. Energy is reflected off one another but there is no consciousness between them. Plutos purpose is not one of healing. Plutos purpose is one of destruction and transformation, not for malevolent purposes but because destruction and transformation are necessary part of growth. Pluto is all about evolution, it is without conscience being single minded in its destruction and elimination of all redundant elements for the survival and proliferation of the human soul. It is neither negative nor positive, functioning simply but profoundly to enhance and advance the cycle of life. Healing can only take place on a conscious level through expansion and depth of understanding and acceptance. These are things of no concern to pluto. Pluto may facillitate healing just as maggots on a festering flesh wound facillitate healing but let there be no doubt that neither the maggots nor pluto heal anything.

To North Node
It denotes 'growth' through the direction meant for us to be taken in this life, but this does not come easy. It is something we have to work for in order to reach our destination, attain our goals.
I agree completely.
In our souls journey there is a place we must move away from, a place that is familiar, a place we learned to be ourselves. That place being the south node. Our soul yearns for evolution, to grow and transcend the existence we were born into. Does that come easy? Not on your nelly. It is easily they most profound and difficult journey ever requiring incredible courage and indeterminable strength. The south node represents the things we need to work through to realise and acheive the north node goals.

To the IC/MC points
This is still quite a debated subject - as in whether it is the IC or the MC that signifies the mother/father. Let us say that the IC/4th house denotes the roots/family/origin, so 'parents', in general, which form the family and home. This is not to say that there are no established theories on which point denotes what, but there are also many counter theories, which makes it all quite 'un-set' or debated.

My decision to assign mother father etc in this chart is not based on single significators but rather the dynamic interplay of all the characters in the chart.
To Chiron in Cancer
This indeed can show wounds related to the mother/motherly figure (Moon, natural ruler of Cancer clearly dentoes the mother and Cancer is the sign of the family and home life, of women in general, and esp of the mother/motherly figure.

Generally speaking yes but in this case the moon is ruled by saturn. We are not discussing theoretical significators here but instead the dynamic formed in this womans chart.

To Capricorn
It actually is a sign of early maturity, even wisdom to a certain extent, both of which can indeed come through some sort of burden (be it through family/finances..) thatthe native might have to bear early in life.

I dont think we can simply state that capricorns suffer or acheive wisdom due to burdens. Saturn is not all doom and gloom. Saturn represents stability, discipline, order, maturity, responsibility, stoicness and determination. Sure capricorns can suffer the ill affects of saturn and this is more so with the moon placed here but its very simplistic.

To Cap Moon
One surely should not assume that Cap Moon will not let a person forget some past circumstance/painful experience at all in life (like I said earlier, nothing in the chart can dam-n a person to unresolved sufferings for a lifetime, there is free-will and other factors in a chart always to show the opposite). However, it can be rather challenging for a person with (personal) planets in Cap to (easily) let go of the past; Saturn rules Cap, and Saturn is a planet of the past, the old...

As someone with a cappy moon and saturn in first house i can honestly say that the past holds no more weight for me than the future. Saturn has no time for emotions and certainly doesnt entertain pity parties based on past hurts. Saturn simply wants to stay the same. Saturn resists change and does this simply because that is saturns purpose. Saturn seeks resolution without disruption.

Astro 4U and Rogue, I just checked on the Sat-Chiron opposition, and found that it is almost 10°, and both these being rather slow-moving bodies, we perhaps should not count that opposition.


:)AQ7

Thankyou for your input Aquarius. As mercury prepares to go direct my mecurial feet are itching:D
Being challenged is a most stimulating and rewarding opportunity to reveiw what i have learned, modifying incorrectly held ideas and strengthening my resolve on matters i am confident in.;)

Rogue red
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
Re: Dear Mama; a Capricorn's Plight

Hi again Rogue,

I too have a Cap Moon;), and Capricorn/Sat are known in Astrology to be deeply connected to the past, being conservative (of traditions for e.g. which come from the past), etc. This is not to say that the native with Cap placements cannot move on at all and look into the future, it is just that Cap/Sat make this moving-on more challenging as compared to other signs (esp air and fire), like I said in my previous post.

Regarding Pluto and destruction, well, I guess you can look at it your way, too, ie that transformation comes through destruction, but this destruction means letting go of what is there (in a way destroying/letting it die) in order to 'be re-born' (metaphorically speaking). However, this destruction is one of destroying old energies.., where the native plays along and in a way brings about the transformation him/herself, so here Pluto can actually bring about a sort of healing as part and parcel of that transformation and starting anew - which is what I wanted to stress on. (I have a heavy Pluto aspecting quite a few of my personal planets, and the apex planet of two t-squares, so I am speaking from some experience here). On the other hand, the evil destruction or damnation, which is also associated with Pluto comes when the native resists transformation, which is due. When this transformation does take place in the end (e.g., if you lose your job/career, and did not resign on your own, though there were many things at work pointing in this direction), then it feels like Pluto destroyed that part of your life because it feels like this transformation happened absolutely against our will and wishes. Of course, even going with the flow of transformation is not always completely in our hands (say if you are suffering from a fatal disease). There is a subtle difference, however, in the two ways the Pluto transformation can be felt, and this, I feel, is important to understand.

Thanks to you, too, Rogue for triggering an interesting discussion.

:)AQ7
 

Astrologer4U

Well-known member
Re: Dear Mama; a Capricorn's Plight

rogue_red said:
Astro, I know your heart is in the right place but be careful about making assumptions. Its important to be sure of your astrological facts.:)
Rogue red

I think you should be careful making the assumption that your observations of a chart are superior. You are a good astrologer but you are certainly no expert. Pluto is a great planet and of course it does have it's negative side as well. As Aquarius 7000 said, if you resist what pluto is trying to do for you, there will be some consequences to pay. I made some major changes two years ago before Pluto went into Capricorn because I knew I needed to make those changes before Pluto went into Cap. I didn't want to take the chance on not showing my self worthy and capable to Pluto. The change that I made although I am not thoroughly healed because healing is a process, I can definately say that I am healing do to my accepting that I needed to make a change. Now, the power of Pluto is transforming me...


Pluto doesnt heal, it destroys, intensifies and transforms.

Looking at the words you chose to describe Pluto. Wouldn't the native who wishes to heal need to destroy what is hendering her not to heal in order to heal? Intensifying her need to destroy the pain can only mean that what is hendering her will have no choice but to turn her loose and allow her to heal. Once that process is over, it will be like turning over a new leaf or the phoenix rising out of the ashes, she will be totally healed.


Chiron is in cancer in the 5th and as cancer rules fourth house it denotes the father.

I have looked at a lot of charts and the 10th or the 4th can be either or, the mother or the father depending on the circumstances but one thing for sure, Saturn is almost more than likely the father and the Moon is always more than likely the mother. Her 5th house is ruled by the Moon, Moon is over in the 12th Capricorn. The planet ruling the 12th is Saturn and it is opposing Chiron back over in the 5th of Cancer.


" North node represents the experiences one must work through in order to grow. "
No it doesnt.

Yes it does... Now please tell us in your opinion, why does it not? You do understand that none of us are experts and any reading that we give is totally our opinion, this includes your readings as well...


Venus is in 5th
In Cancer which the Moon rules, why are you ignoring that part?



"Cap Moon represents the child who needed to feel protected and loved but never got it."

Not necessarily. Capricorn moon also symbolises the mother who uses routine and structure to show her love and also represent the mother within who seeks to aprent herself in a structured no nonsense way.

We are talking about emotions here, not what kind of mother the native has. It is clear what kind of mother the native has so the mother was not as you are describing her to be. Now we can deal with the negative side of the Moon in this case that you are describing because we know what we are dealing with and it is no guessing game. The native has aleady explained her mother and her father and what she did not get was two parents who disciplined her in a "no nonsense" structureized routine fashion. What she got was the total opposite. What she got was her childhood taken away, what she got was emotionally robbed. Capricorn Moon child had to emotionally grow up fast and for her, she had to do that in a "no nonsense" way.


Wrong again im afraid.

That is your opinion, I am not trying to compete against what you say. I will let the native Sarah say what she feels about the whole thing. I just want to help her. She seems very strong so I doubt she will let a reading that does not apply to her get passed her, with out being washed.



"Emotionally, you had to do those things for yourself and the little child in you who needed emotional support, symbolically starved to death. Because your mother is still alive, and yoru father is not, you go through phases where you want her to feel your pain, the pain that a part of you feels she allowed your father to get away with imposing upon you."

Sarah actually states that in her blog

Then what is your complaint or dissagreement?




Astrologer4u, what on earth makes you think that capricorn moon will not let her forget? What are you basing this assumption on because astrologically it doesnt make sense to me as someone who actually has a cappy moon.

Capricorn never forgets but Capricorn can forgive. As you said, you have a Capricorn Moon but yours is in the 11th, not the same thing at all, I don't care what degrees your Moon is. I could go on to talk about My Mercury and Sun in Capricorn or my Saturn in the 1st but it still would not be the natives Capricorn moon in the 12th now would it?



Cancer is ruled by the moon, it is the moon that represents the mother not cancer as such because cancer also represents the fourth house, our roots, our origin and our father.

Never mind what you are saying.The Moon rules her 5th house and it is in the 12th Capricorn. We can debate your opinion against mine but we can do that in a Private message. I don't want to turn this young lady's thread into a Rogues opinion against Astrologer4U's opinion. We can wait to see what the native Sarah say's.



Actually i think it is. Sarahs anger is at her mother for not protecting her. It goes against every fibre of ones being to be abused in such away and to not have been protected which is every childs inherent right.

I said the same thing...



No no no. Taking 12th house ruler as saturn and saturn being in the 10th and ruler of the moon symbolises her father as ruling over her mother.

I said that too, just not the way you said it...



She understands that her mother was a victim but the injustice of what happened to her wants a voice.

I said that also, just not the way you said it...


Saturn opposite chiron shows the abuse perpetrated by her father and the affect it had on her. Chiron is in the 5th house with venus showing sarah that healing of this wound can be found through her creative expression but she must allow herself emotional freedom as saturn seeks to repress and restrict her creativity. Venus is trine pluto so pluto will use her creative expression in the 5th to transform her.
You say sarah understands her mother but she doesnt, thats the problem, she loves her mother but the one thing sarah needed most from her mother she didnt get, protection. As a victim sarah has empathy for her mother but that doesnt abdicate responsibility. Sarah struggles to reconcile those two conflicting feelings regarding her mother.

We are on the same page your intepretation is just different from mine but we seem to be saying the same thing. However for much obvious reasons what I am saying gets chopped and disected to only turn out that you are basially repeating all that I already said.... Okay, I'm going to stop here because what is taking place is as plain as day. Sarah, can't wait to hear back from you....


Astrologer4U
 
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Astrologer4U

Well-known member
Re: Dear Mama; a Capricorn's Plight

@Rogue_Red

"As someone with a cappy moon and saturn in first house i can honestly say that the past holds no more weight for me than the future. Saturn has no time for emotions and certainly doesnt entertain pity parties based on past hurts. Saturn simply wants to stay the same. Saturn resists change and does this simply because that is saturns purpose. Saturn seeks resolution without disruption."

Ah, Rogue, isn't your Sun sign a fire Sign, Aries If I am correct? :)

Also, I think the aspects to your Cap Moon in the 11th house I might add, would have different aspects than Sarahs going to it. Each chart has different mathamatics going on. This is why a chart for an individual is dealt with as a whole, not a general characteristic of one aspect.



@Aqaurius 7000

"Astro 4U and Rogue, I just checked on the Sat-Chiron opposition, and found that it is almost 10°, and both these being rather slow-moving bodies, we perhaps should not count that opposition."


Hey Aquarius 7000, thanks for all your input and certainly thanks for the interception and shedding some light plus objectivity...

In response to your above quote, perhaps is perhaps right? Perhaps we should or perhaps we shouldn't :)


Thanks again...



Astrologer4U
 

ninashtia

Member
Wow, I am absolutely stunned at the amount of activity my post attracted! I never expected this; but maybe I did! I have learned so much, not even just astrology, but basic emotional facts I've been craving. Well, I guess I shouldn't say facts, (naturally) because one truth that radiates is that I've been trying to ease my pain with facts and this approach has been proven completely ineffective. This has been a post I will never forget, you can bet your ***. It's quite a paradigm shift; a precious one.


Rogue_Red:
"Dont feel obligated to continue to see your mother at this time. Your time of obligation is past and you must focus on providing the nurturing to yourself, understanding and accepting your needs as needs not guilt ridden wants."


Thank you. If I've ever heard anything so freeing I can't remember it. Thank you, really. Hey it's that moon conjunction. You helped me emotionally. That's awesome lol

Astrologer4U:
"You really love your mother a lot too. In your heart, you know that she was a victim of your fathers sicknesses as well but your Cap Moon represents the child who needed to feel protected and loved but never got it. Capricorn is forced to grow up fast to fend for and take care of self. Emotionally, you had to do those things for yourself and the little child in you who needed emotional support, symbolically starved to death. Because your mother is still alive, and yoru father is not, you go through phases where you want her to feel your pain, the pain that a part of you feels she allowed your father to get away with imposing upon you. "

Oh my god. My jaw just drops whenever I read this. I kind of have to sit and breathe and take it all in. wow.
It's so true, what you have said. If he was alive maybe thing would be different, because then I could confront him. That's a lot. wow. I always feel so guilty about being angry at her, that's probably because I'm channeling all my anger for the situation into my questions about her role in my life. Expecting to find some sentence that will change everything. If only I could understand...that was my internal maze. And I've got to just be as emotionally and spiritually healthy as I can be...that is of the utmost importance.

Astrologer4U: " Looking at your mothers chart, it seems like she may have been hurt, abused as a child as well, so your mother really didn't know how to protect herself leading her to not really knowing, or having the courage to protect you."

She was abused, definitely. As soon as I saw her chart for the first time it didn't really surprise me. The moon the sun the whole shebang. My mother always had a difficult life, and her mother was also abused. It tends to work like that. Stops with me though.

Oh god that's like, the hardest thing to swallow about it all. That she DID have amazing courage, she was a humanitarian for an anti polygamy organization for about 5 years when I was 10, and helped families escape and rehabilitate. But she couldn't like, internalize it. All that energy saving other people, going out into the media, putting it out there. But all the personal baggage got swept under the rug. Nothing in our family ever got dealt with. She didn't have the courage. wow.

Astrologer4U:
" The native has aleady explained her mother and her father and what she did not get was two parents who disciplined her in a "no nonsense" structureized routine fashion. What she got was the total opposite. What she got was her childhood taken away, what she got was emotionally robbed. Capricorn Moon child had to emotionally grow up fast and for her, she had to do that in a "no nonsense" way. "

It is interesting that my capricorn moon did not manifest in the extremely structured home environment/parental experience. But it's just so fitting that you said I had to grow up in a no nonsense way. It was very saturn, very real, and quite isolated. The lack of having security has made me incredibly fond of it as I grow.

rogue_red:
"Saturn opposite chiron shows the abuse perpetrated by her father and the affect it had on her. Chiron is in the 5th house with venus showing sarah that healing of this wound can be found through her creative expression but she must allow herself emotional freedom as saturn seeks to repress and restrict her creativity. Venus is trine pluto so pluto will use her creative expression in the 5th to transform her."

This makes me very happy, I get it! I'm an artist, and the day I started art school the moon was conjunct my N-node in pisces. I am on the right path. I just need to emotionally heal and nurture myself and others to grow in every direction! Yesss

rogue_red:
"You say sarah understands her mother but she doesnt, thats the problem, she loves her mother but the one thing sarah needed most from her mother she didnt get, protection. As a victim sarah has empathy for her mother but that doesnt abdicate responsibility. Sarah struggles to reconcile those two conflicting feelings regarding her mother."

I've never heard it put so well. I've had quite a tough time really putting that into words but you said it well. I'm saving every word of these replies, even the slightly argumentative part (which as a young astrologer I find SO entertaining and informative) I am just thrilled with.

I couldn't possibly write out all the thoughts running through my head as I read all of your responses, but just know that this has truely been a healing experience for me. It realigned me, and I am eternally grateful for helping hand and kind words. <3333 Thank you so much!!
 

rogue_red

Well-known member
Hi there, im so glad you were able to get the answers you needed. I need to apologise to you. Astrologer4u had some very helpful information for you as did i but i allowed a personal conflict between astrologer4u and myself to cloud my judgement. I apologise for using your thread as my personal battleground, it was inappropriate and unprofessional.
I wish you all the best and i hope that in spite of my behavior you have been able to get the advice you were seeking.

Rogue_red
 

Astrologer4U

Well-known member
@ninashtia

"This has been a post I will never forget, you can bet your ***. It's quite a paradigm shift; a precious one."

"I'm saving every word of these replies, even the slightly argumentative part (which as a young astrologer I find SO entertaining and informative) I am just thrilled with. "

Who say's some bad things can't happen for a good reason. :)

Sarah, I am so glad you took what your thread turned into as something you will never forget for nothing but good and positive reasons. You have a good way of looking at things which even further demonstrates that you are, as you said and I agree, on the right path. ;)

I kind of felt that your attitude about this all would be of a lighthearted nature. :) I am glad my feelings were right.

I am glad, pleased ecstatic etc. you feel good about what Rogue and I observed about your chart, hope it all helps. :)

I gotta run Sarah so take care and I look forward to seeing you around. ;)



Astrologer4U
 
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