Solar Return combined with Natal vs.

I am trying to figure out where to be on my Solar Return, and I think I may have been doing it wrong. I never before compared the SR to my natal, and I'm trying to figure out how to do it.

For instance, before I'd draw up a chart for my SR, and look at it by itself, and try to manipulate the chart to achieve things I wanted, such as trying to get jupiter in the 2nd house, preferably trining the midheaven. I noticed I had a good financial year in 2007, when I travelled to Seattle in 2006, which put Jupiter in the first house.

However now I'm trying to figure out if I'm supposed to combine the charts and judge it by that. What I mean is, ok, the solar return for my birthday by itself has Jupiter at 22 degrees in 5th house. if I combine my natal with this, then Jupiter at 22 degrees is in my natal chart in the second house. I had been considering travelling to get my SR to have jupiter in the 2nd, which means going to the south of france. but as I said, what I'm noticing is that if I look at the position of the planets for my SR as they would be in my natal, Jupiter is already there.

Which is more important? The solar return, as a snapshot of that exact moment my sun returns, by itself, or looking at the solar return in terms of where the planets will be in my natal? I hope I'm being clear...

I really could use a year with jupiter in a money house, I'm half ready to do what it takes to make money for a trip to france so that My SR will have both Jupiter & Part of fortune in the 2nd. I am just not sure what to give precedence, the SR chart by itself, or combined with my natal.

Help!

Courtney Love, this is a difficult question because some people do not believe so much in a relocated chart, others do and I think it is just a matter of trying it out.
I give you here the link on how to judge a Solar Return chart together with a natal chart. Maybe this will help you a bit further.

How to interprete a Solar Return Chart.

Personally I have never done this. Usually people are doing this relocation thing to avoid having a bad planet in the first house or a nasty square to the Ascendant, but then, if they move it away from the 1st house, then it ends up in another house and you will have problems anyhow.
I think of manipulating the chart as "playing God" in a way. Sure, we have free will and a choice between making a good or bad decision, using the energy of the planets in a good or bad way, but this choice, trying to bring the fortunate planets into your 1st or 2nd house, just does not do it for me. Imagine, every year you would have a good financial year for the rest of your life if you had the money to travel to places which would give you Jupiter in the 2nd. (IF that would really work of course, which is the biiiig question.) Jupiter can also show great expenditure!!

The fact that you had a good year in 2007 could well have been caused by something else. Maybe your progressed chart was super good in that respect.
I dont see a SR chart as a definite: "This is how my year will pan out!!" chart. I use it as a general indication chart.

Another thing about Solar Returns is the fact that very often they reflect what you would like and not what you will actually get. I once had a client with a full SR 6th house. He very much needed to find work and was all over the Moon when hearing that the 6th deals with work. Even I was sure he would. But nothing at all happened. The chart just reflected strongly what he had on his mind instead. Very tricky to put all your hopes on a Solar Return chart.

Thats why I always use the natal chart next to it. See where natal planets will focus on this year. When natal Mars is in the 5th in your natal, but in the 8th in your SR, then the Mars energy is this year focussed on 8th house issues and less on 5th house.(even though that will always be there of course). Other transits and Progressed positions might force this Mars to work with 8th house drama for a year.

Some only use at the Solar Return, but that has given me very limited information. That what is not shown in the natal chart, wont be shown in the SR. Also, when a Solar Return planet does NOT make an aspect with a natal planet, you also wont see anything happen in regard to this planet. So if you have that Jupiter manipulated into your 2nd house, but that Jupiter does not aspect any planet in your natal, than I doubt you will notice much "luck" in this department.

Hope this helps. I will try to move this thread to the discussion thread about Solar Returns.

Cheers, Starlink

I know there's a bit of controversy in the whole traveling for your solar return, but I've tried it before, and that's why i want to try it again. I don't think it's playing god at all, I mean, the only time I'd consider anything astrology related as playing God would be like, if you were having a baby, and you were trying to manipulate the birth to coincide with a "good" chart. Traveling to have better luck, or improve health or your lovelife just seems like what astrology is for, like using electional astrology to find a good day to get married. I dunno, my question is just about what chart to consider.

I have read many of your links, and frankly my lack of knowlege is frightening, and while I have tried my best to learn more, there's so much I don't know that its sad. So I play for the obvious, here in Seattle, were I to be here on my SR, saturn would be in the second house, and jupiter would be in the 6th. Now that is a pile of suck I cannot accept. I am already broke, and already enormous so, yeah.. Although I hear what you're saying about the chart not being the end-all "this is what will be" thing, I'm going along with it. I started seeing alot of things play out in looking back at solar returns, and I do think that they're accurate. So I'm doing this, traveling. I know you say take the SR and compare it to the natal, I have, but question is simply what is most important, the SR chart by itself, or where the SR planets fall in my natal?

I'm going to post the charts to make my meaning clear. And give a bit of info:

I was born in North Carolina and moved to Seattle last year. Therefore my SR could happen in either of those places, but upon looking at both charts (and deciding to run from Seattle) I also considered France, because I always wanted an excuse to go there.

So what I'm saying is I'm trying to figure out the better chart, and therefore I am looking at four charts, 2 locations.

If I go "home" to my birthplace where I'll be spending the holidays, then I have a decent chart, but which of these charts is the one that matters most? The first one, which simply shows my Solar Return, or the second one which shows my solar return planets in my natal house? Which is more important?

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/3/hpsr.gif

In this Solar Return chart, the moon is conjunct part of fortune in the 2nd, and they both trine the Solar Return Midheaven.

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7638/hpnatal.gif

However, in this chart, with the Solar return/natal Combo, then we see Jupiter/Neptune/Chiron in my natal 2nd. That's the funny thing, that of course, on that day, no matter where I am in the world, these planets will be considered as transiting through my natal 2nd house. So it's almost like, what's the point of going anywhere if they're already considered in my 2nd. Do you see my confusion? It's not a bad chart either...Venus/Sun PLuto all kicking around in my 3rd house of writing & computers.. And I love computers and writing, this could be my year to do something big/successful with this..

However, then there's Nice, France. This chart seems alot better if I'm there on my SR. It's interesting that the SR chart almost mirrors my natal, as the ascendent is only 3 degrees different than my natal. Part of Fortune, Jupiter, Neptune, and chiron are in my 2nd, in wide trines to my SR Midheaven... Ruler of my 5th & 6th houses in the 1st...

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/7391/nicesr.gif

and once again, if we combine it with my natal there's just so much 1st and second house activity...

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/410/nicenatal.gif

So when making my final decision, which charts should I be focusing on? The charts for North Carolina & France that include my natal & show where the SR planets fall in my natal houses, or the charts for SRs in NC & france by themselves, standing alone as one moment in time? I know I have to compare them to the natal, but is that secondary to the SR chart itself?

I mean, I'm thinking that the most important chart for the Solar return IS the solar return by itself, that after you see what it says, you then also look to your natal to see which houses are being "hit" by your SR, to know what areas of your life will be highlighted. I feel like I'm not making sense. Someone guide me in the right direction.

but question is simply what is most important, the SR chart by itself, or where the SR planets fall in my natal?

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Neither, the natal should be put around the SR to see if any natal planets are conj Angles (very important) as this gives them an airing/outlet. SR alone does not always produce outward events, most times the 'events' are between the ears

In this Solar Return chart, the moon is conjunct part of fortune in the 2nd, and they both trine the Solar Return Midheaven.

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I don't consider moon is conj POF cos max orb i use would be 3' to be effective. Plus you seem to have overlooked SR moon is conj natal uranus

If I were you I would be more concerned with T Saturn conj MC next year, as this 8 out of 10 can suggest slow downs,difficulties with career and poss coming out of work ---

All four charts you have posted are for France and the first two you should have use the relocation facilities for N Carolina and haven't (i suspect) cos they are ALL same degree Asc....

So a SR Asc same as natal shows you will be working on your projected self image. It's the house that the SR Asc falls in the natal chart that's important.

You are what I call a double barrelled Asc/Sun in Saggi double the restlessness and I'm not surprised you like travelling and learning new things and want freedom and independence.

You can of course view the SR as a stand alone, but you get much more info if you put the natal around outside to see if any natal planets are coming to Angles or other SR planets....

Then you should also look to see what Transits are affecting your natal, along with progressed planets and possibly even solar arcs....

Things can suggest potential in SR but not necessarily deliver on that potential due to outside circumstances and events..

hey =]

No, the first two charts are for North Carolina. I was born with my ascendent at 18 degrees Saggie, and if I am in france for my solar return, then the ascendent would be at 15 degrees saggie.

The first link shows the North Carolina solar return by itself, which I now know to no longer use. The second link shows the SR/natal combo, which you say to use.

Thanks for the tip about transiting Saturn, I don't work a traditional job (I work online, and was planning to find "real work") so this bums me out.

I did notice SR moon conjunct Uranus, I just don't know what it means, or why it's something to worry about, so I'll be researching that in a moment. I just read Bob Mark's site a few times, and he's the one who brought up traveling for your SR, so thats where I got the idea years ago.

I've tried it before, and that's why i want to try it again.

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Then by all means DO it! I would! You are right, it is not playing God, it is a bit like manipulation your destiny. I agree with the baby example.
So do it again and see if again luck will be on your side! But do look at the overall chart and see where then Pluto, Mars and Saturn will end up.

ok i've had another look at these charts. In the France chart the SR asc falls in 12th house,not good. SR moon conj uranus - also not good BUT natal north node is conj MC of SR which could bring people into your life that will help you to reach your potential within large organisations (N Node 11th house Equal house) SR saturn is in 10th slowing down, making you work harder, longer etc. Jupiter/neptune opp mars is in 3-9th houses showing action (mars) into higher learning, travelling, philosophies etc.
Expansion and spiritual matters Jupiter/nep in 3rd lots of short distance trips and running around in your neighbourhood. Your natal venus and SR venus is still trapped in 12th for France - which is not good, cos it could suggest a secret liaison/affair and working for money behind the scenes...

Now in the US SR the libra Asc falls in your 10th house natally your N Node conj Asc instead of MC. So my opinion this SR seems better cos of Libras Asc, although SR moon is conj uranus in both charts (obviously) which suggests fluctuating emotions, few shocks and surprised connected to mother, women and poss how you earn your money.....

astrologer50 said:

ok i've had another look at these charts. In the France chart the SR asc falls in 12th house,not good. SR moon conj uranus - also not good BUT natal north node is conj MC of SR which could bring people into your life that will help you to reach your potential within large organisations (N Node 11th house Equal house) SR saturn is in 10th slowing down, making you work harder, longer etc. Jupiter/neptune opp mars is in 3-9th houses showing action (mars) into higher learning, travelling, philosophies etc.
Expansion and spiritual matters Jupiter/nep in 3rd lots of short distance trips and running around in your neighbourhood. Your natal venus and SR venus is still trapped in 12th for France - which is not good, cos it could suggest a secret liaison/affair and working for money behind the scenes...

Now in the US SR the libra Asc falls in your 10th house natally your N Node conj Asc instead of MC. So my opinion this SR seems better cos of Libras Asc, although SR moon is conj uranus in both charts (obviously) which suggests fluctuating emotions, few shocks and surprised connected to mother, women and poss how you earn your money.....

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Thank you for this, it gives me a lot to think about, but I thought France was so good because i thought that my SR Venus would be considered in the first, given that it's at the end of the 12th house? Or is it different in Solar returns, that once a planet moves to the next house, even by half a degree, it's in that house? It's actually why I chose nice over paris, in paris Jupiter is at the end of the second house, and I assumed it would be considered in the third...

I'm hoping that the Uranus/moon aspect is a good surprise/shock.. but in scorpio? I'm worried about this one... I need to research the nodes more, but thank you!

I think that I am most likely going to stay in the US, sadly, I think the Paris trip isn't worth it financially, so I'm back to looking at the chart if I'm in my hometown in NC.

The main thing that bothers me is Uranus in the 6th, especially the fact that it's squaring the sun, applying... I just fear it's a health issue, and things are already quite precarious, I don't need anything else...

I don't work a "real" job so this can hardly be something like unexpectedly losing a job, so I feel like this is going to be a health problem, but could it be about transforming my health/weight? all those squares to Uranus really concern me... I keep thinking of ways to get healthier and lose weight and do it intelligently for the past few months... but I keep thinking that Pluto is about transformation, so...

what do you think? In truth, this chart does have some magic, I really want to concentrate on writing and the 3rd house is loaded, although I think mercury is going to be considered in the 4th since it's on the cusp... but Uranus....

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/3/hpsr.gif

Courtney, listen. When Solar Return planets do not make an aspect with a natal planet, then you wont notice anything. Now, of course, the Sun is always in the same place and a slow transit like Uranus is also. See if that Uranus is also making close aspects to other natal planets. Maybe you were only looking at the SR chart and seeing all those difficult aspects there.

Psychologically, the 6th house could also mean that your feeling of always having to do things for others (6th house) might change. As you know, a Sun-Uranus aspect very often brings the urge for freedom. So maybe you like to be free from certain duties to others. Dont always look at the most negative indications. There is more to look at usually.

starlink said:

Courtney, listen. When Solar Return planets do not make an aspect with a natal planet, then you wont notice anything. Now, of course, the Sun is always in the same place and a slow transit like Uranus is also. See if that Uranus is also making close aspects to other natal planets. Maybe you were only looking at the SR chart and seeing all those difficult aspects there.

Psychologically, the 6th house could also mean that your feeling of always having to do things for others (6th house) might change. As you know, a Sun-Uranus aspect very often brings the urge for freedom. So maybe you like to be free from certain duties to others. Dont always look at the most negative indications. There is more to look at usually.

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thanks for this, Starlink, and sadly no I didn't know what sun-uranus meant, I am awesome. I just want you to know that I'm not a crazy worrywart, I have had some serious health issues, and I get concerned. Back in 2002, I developed arthritis and it hit me hard, one day I was fine, and the next day (nov 3rd) I felt like Id been hit by a truck. I mean, laying in bed for weeks, and being in pain every single day for more than 3 years. A few years later, I looked at my solar return for that year (which took place in dec 02) and I saw Saturn in the 6th house, so anytime planets are in my 6th I get nervous.

So I just went back to that SR, and Saturn in the 6th was opposed to my sun in the 12th (*sigh*) applying by 4 degrees, so that helps to know that if a planet is in a house without making an aspect to my natal, it won't be a problem.

but this incident is one of the main reasons why I would always look at the SR chart by itself, because in '02 that SR had sun in the 12th opposed to saturn in the 6th, and I had the health crisis, but if I had just looked at the SR with my natal chart in it, I wouldn't have seen any indication of a health problem, as SR Saturn would be shown in my 7th house natally, and of course the SR sun would be in the 1st like it always is...

The ruler of the chart, venus, in the third conjnuct sun and trine mars is quite positive indicating an energy boost. And the fact that your natal 10th is rising gives this a positive outlook for your profession.
I did note saturn in the 12th of things unknown to you rules your 4th and squares Pluto ruler of 2nd and mercury...I suspect you may have unexpected house hold bills or something comes up that costs some money inconnection to house or family.

When Solar Return planets do not make an aspect with a natal planet, then you wont notice anything.

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I am a little confused by this statement but I may have missed something. A solar return can be read as a stand alone. The natal planets inserted tells us more about the dynamics and when natal planets are conjunct solar then that aspect energy tells us this will be in play for the solar year. But the dynamics of the solar chart can be read all by itself.

gemini59 said:

I am a little confused by this statement but I may have missed something. A solar return can be read as a stand alone. The natal planets inserted tells us more about the dynamics and when natal planets are conjunct solar then that aspect energy tells us this will be in play for the solar year. But the dynamics of the solar chart can be read all by itself.

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I don't like reading SR as stand alones cos I think you get more of a bigger picture with natal outside. That way you can see if any natal planets become angular and contact SR planets, and like star said if the don't contact SR planets you won't notice it's effects...

Plus if the member doesn't post the natal, how will you know which natal house will be prominent in that SR?

Ah, I miss read her. True,a natal planet not in contact with a solar planet, solar house cusp or angle will have little affect that year in the solar chart.

this incident is one of the main reasons why I would always look at the SR chart by itself

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Courtney Love, I very well understand this, after your sad experience with your health and I know many astrologers who only look at the Solar Return. Nothing wrong with that, but I prefer to look at that one AND also compare it with the natal chart.

I also have seen Solar Returns with full 6th houses and indeed the workload was absolutely awful during that year and successively the health affected by that, so yes, it can happen that certain things are indeed shown by the Solar Return itself.

But have you also looked at what happened to transits to your natal chart for that precise year and month when your health troubles started? I can hardly imagine that you could not find any indication for such a serious situation. Inconjunct aspects for instance very often show impending illness, not only oppositions or squares.
And how about your progressed chart? maybe there you could have found the reason for your ailments at that time?

because in '02 that SR had sun in the 12th opposed to saturn in the 6th, and I had the health crisis,

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Also, the Sun in every solar return chart does show the main focus for the year apart from the house where the Ascendant of the SR chart falls in the natal chart which also gets much attention.
So with that Sun in 12, yes, that alone would indicate that retreat, not going out a lot, would have been a great possibility. Also being in hospital could have been possible (or having to do a lot with clinics or hospitals). From that point of view, I can see why that year was a year of physical (Sun) retreat (12th house) being in bed most of the time.

gemini59 said:

The ruler of the chart, venus, in the third conjnuct sun and trine mars is quite positive indicating an energy boost. And the fact that your natal 10th is rising gives this a positive outlook for your profession.
I did note saturn in the 12th of things unknown to you rules your 4th and squares Pluto ruler of 2nd and mercury...I suspect you may have unexpected house hold bills or something comes up that costs some money inconnection to house or family.

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Everything is costing me money I don't have, that was why I was considering Paris, which put Jupiter in the 2nd. I need some luck, because I don't work a "real" job, I do online affiliate marketing, which requires more luck than you would imagine....

starlink said:

Courtney Love, I very well understand this, after your sad experience with your health and I know many astrologers who only look at the Solar Return. Nothing wrong with that, but I prefer to look at that one AND also compare it with the natal chart.

But have you also looked at what happened to transits to your natal chart for that precise year and month when your health troubles started? I can hardly imagine that you could not find any indication for such a serious situation. Inconjunct aspects for instance very often show impending illness, not only oppositions or squares.
And how about your progressed chart? maybe there you could have found the reason for your ailments at that time?

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I posted my chart years ago on a newsgroup, and no one saw anything, one woman suggested that with both my progressed moon & sun in "cold capricorn" that she thought the illness was psychosomatic because I felt unloved and unhappy, basically suggesting that saggitarians are prone to shutting down if not allowed to have the fun they feel promised to them by birth.

starlink said:

Also, the Sun in every solar return chart does show the main focus for the year apart from the house where the Ascendant of the SR chart falls in the natal chart which also gets much attention.
So with that Sun in 12, yes, that alone would indicate that retreat, not going out a lot, would have been a great possibility. Also being in hospital could have been possible (or having to do a lot with clinics or hospitals). From that point of view, I can see why that year was a year of physical (Sun) retreat (12th house) being in bed most of the time.

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yes, that chart and the chart for the following year, by themselves told the story of my health problems... I felt, given that the next year the sun was in the 8th for my SR...

Here's the chart for my Dec 02 SR, which is when the arthritis hit (it started a month previously). I look at this, Sun is applying towards a square to saturn in the 6th, and in my mind, most telling is that Saturn is trine to Uranus, exactly applying... So to me the chart shows an unexpected/shocking (uranus), serious (saturn) health problem (6th house), and it was.



So for this year, Thats why i felt like Uranus in the 6th says Unexpected Health problem, and squaring my sun makes it serious. Keep in mind that Uranus is at 22 degrees, and my sun is at 21 degrees, very tight aspect. It's going to be significant, I don't think for someone who already has health problems that it could be something as simple as mentally freeing myself, as much as I'd like that....

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/3/hpsr.gif

I am working myself up with this, but ****, Im starting to think I need to sell some organs to get out of the country this year!

with 4planets in 3rd house of communications it would be excellent for communications, writing etc. Just be careful Middle Sept 2010 as T Saturn conj your MC... Angles ie: Asc/Desc, MC/IC are usually external events and you may find something coming to an end around then.

For example :-
T Saturn hit my MC when my first husband after divorce decided to disappear and avoid paying maintenance. This put me on the benefit system for 12months until I tracked him down. I ended in Court 4x to get an attachment on his earnings..... not a nice time

When T Pluto hit my MC my father died, same time T Pluto conj my mothers sun..

When T Uranus hit my MC my first marriage started breaking down, same time T Pluto opp Moon. On the Retrograde hit of Uranus I filed for divorce, first hit spoke to solicitor, but reconciled til next hit...

When T Neptune conj my MC age 16 left home, broke (dissolved) relationship with parents

Principle is same your social standing career (if working) takes nose dive, major alterations are afoot.

So what I'm trying to explain is, that if doesn't matter where you are on your SR, Transits stay the same and you cannot ignore the T Saturn coming up for you next year...

Courtneylove, I understand very well your health concern. Of course it is possible that it could be your health (again), but I dont think so to be honest. Uranus is transiting your 3rd house in the natal chart. Transits over the natal chart I give more importance than the same planet being in the 6th of the Solar Return.

Now the 3rd house deals with the lower mind, peers (uncles, aunts etc) but also communication and that involves traffic, so what I think is that you should be careful in traffic. (after all an accident could also be bad for your health, but I dont think it is an illness again). You could behave more unpredictable with Uranus square Sun so be careful when going on your bike.

You could also say things which are maybe coming out the wrong way. In the best of cases (focus on that) you could have flashes of ingeniousness. A square shows strong energy which can be positive just as well as negative. When you think about writing, this could be a very good aspect.

You said that your 3rd house of the SR is chockeblock full of planets. So the focus, with that Sun there will be in the 3rd house this year, not the 6th.
The Solar Return Asc. falls in your 10th house, another point of focus. Career or your social position.

SR Moon falls exactly conjunct natal Uranus and squares Mars in your 8th house of other people's money. Uranus co-rules your 2nd house of income, so it rules your money. It could therefore be possible that you might inherit some money (as is also indicated by the ruler of your 8th house situated in your 2nd). Is this maybe a possibility? SR Saturn squares your natal Jupiter and natally you have a Saturn-Jupiter sextile (the combination is repeated, always something to look at).

A Saturn-Jupiter combination, just as a Pluto-Venus combination in a natal chart is often associated with wealth (or at least being well off financially). I am not saying that this is a definitive rule, but it is very often seen (also ruler of the 2nd in the 8th house). In any case, Saturn being the ruler of your 2nd house and natally well aspected by Jupiter could show that even though you could temporarily maybe short of money, you will probably never be totally without money.

It is totally unhelpful to concentrate so much on the negative. Do you know the book "the secret"? Well, the whole book is about "what you focus on, you will get" and this applies to good things as well as bad things. So please start focussing on positive things regarding this aspect.

I know I have to compare them to the natal, but is that secondary to the SR chart itself?

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I dont compare those two charts, I combine them. Natal planets in a different house and sign in the SR chart show a new focus for those planets (energies) to "work out" this Solar Year. The focus is not so much anymore where it is natally placed, but instead it is directed towards another life compartment. That is what I mean with keeping the natal next to the SR chart.

It is totally unhelpful to concentrate so much on the negative. Do you know the book "the secret"? Well, the whole book is about "what you focus on, you will get" and this applies to good things as well as bad things. So please start focussing on positive things regarding this aspect.

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Actually, Star I think the DVD is better avail from Ebay and large bookstores
Also T Uranus squ sun -- may want to do something usual that involves the pride,ego and become more impatience,impulsitve.