Inviting thoughts on Pluto

Lately I've been trying to deepen my sense of what Pluto is all about. To help me I went through some writings of some of my favoured astrological authors to try to replicate in their chosen terminology what Arroyo does in The Chart Interpretation Handbook, i.e. give a brief summary of both positive and negative expressions. His summary is directly quoted here. The Greene stuff is ;paraphrased from a side variety of sources that I've read over the years, so I hope I do it some justice. For Pauline Stone I used Relationships, Astrology and Karma. For Tracy Marks I used The Astrology Of Self-Discovery, and the last section uses my own words in attempt to capture the other author's thoughts along side my own.


ARROYO

positive: Acceptance of the need to focus one’s mind and will power on one’s own transformation; having the courage to face one’s deepest desires and compulsions and to transmute them through effort and intensity of experience.

negative: Compulsive expression of subconscious cravings; wilful manipulation of others to serve one’s own ends; ruthlessly using any means to avoid the pain of facing one’s self; infatuation with power.


STONE

positive: Attaining the highest levels of emotional and spiritual well-being; a joyful approach to life in the expectation that all our needs will be met; the willingness to use all our resources to bring healing and abundance to the planet as a whole.

negative: Succumbing to the depths of depression, frustration and bitterness; compulsive desire for power born of insecurity and fear of loss; cruelty and ruthlessness in the furthering of our own ends.


GREENE

positive: Indestructible conviction of life’s intelligent purposefulness; honouring the transformative power of the instincts; letting go of that which we have outgrown; ability and willingness to penetrate to the roots of things; taking charge of one’s own survival.

negative: Paranoia due to an overdeveloped sense of life-threatening factors in the environment; raging against disempowerment (past or present); depression; resentment; over-identification with dark and destructive passions bubbling up from the collective unconscious.


MARKS

positive: Core darkness can be experienced, but does not deform or overwhelm; energy available for rebirth and deep commitment to relationships and causes; ability to delve into own psyche enables assistance of others with their emotional conflicts; aware of affect on other people – refrains from manipulation; quiet pleasure can be enjoyed between intense times.

negative: At war with oneself; remote and secretive; desires and passions are denied (leaving minimal energy on which to function), or else obsessive, manipulative, vengeful, exploitative behaviour erupts; Attempts to control the outside world to alleviate the sense of being at the mercy of one’s own psyche.


ME

positive: Acceptance of the transience of all manifest things; willing to surf the life force from one form to another; survival instincts expressed in proportion to threat; willingness to yield to necessity; able to accept primitive emotions as a valid part of life; capacity for healthy symbiosis.

negative: Uncontrolled change associated with annihilation or fruitless pain; obsessive attachments and aversions arise from heightened sense of threat; extreme sense of jungle law; lack of trust in life’s bounty; resentful or depressed due to unresolved power issues from the past.


My reason for starting this thread is that I'm struggling with the phrase 'the transforming power of the instincts.' I can see Pluto as transformative, and as the collective survival instincts, and I can see that one has to transform to survive. But there's something not clicking into place for me that I hope to get closer to through this discussion.

Many thanks for your contributions

I was reading Jeff Green yesterday (Pluto And The Evolutionary Journey Of The Soul) and this has added an extra angle. He talks about how Pluto is really a binary planet system involving Charon (the distance between Charon and Pluto is just one twentieth of that between The Moon and Earth). He suggests that this symbolises the two desires which we all carry - the desire for separateness and the desire to return to the source.

One of the things I find useful about this is that it seems to shed light on something that I've never fully grasped - why Neptune would be closer to the Sun than Pluto. However, this is a reminder that Pluto needs to finish what Neptune opens us up to. Its interesting I think that by sign rulership, Pluto follows Venus in that Scorpio follows Libra, and that in terms of orbits Pluto follows Neptune which is the higher octave of Venus. (And for what its worth the planet that rules the sign following Venus' other sign (Taurus) is Mercury which rules Gemini - Mercury was the only other God besides Pluto who could enter and leave the underworld at will). It seems that the astrological symbolism bares out what we all know from our experiences - that the natural consequence of reaching out to others (Venus and Neptune) is the need to embrace the other within, and undergo Plutonian transformation. In myth Venus was perhaps the closest thing to a friend that Pluto had, and it was through Venus that Hades found his wife, Persephone.

I also have been looking at my assumptions about the meaning of the word 'instinct' and have tried to move away from thinking of instinct purely as a lunar propensity. The will to return to the source is itself an instinct I suppose, as are all of the drives symbolised by the planets. The instinct to return to the source would be necessarily transformative as it would involve the Plutonian burning away of 'separating desires' as Green calls them.

There's something rattling around in my brain about the psyche as a kind of ecosystem that I haven't gotten my head around yet, that may help me to further into understanding Pluto

But I guess if Pluto could be completely understood it wouldn't be Pluto. But still, I'm keen to hear any other observations and thoughts from others.

I liked the Arroyo and marks quotes.
However as you say it is not so blackand white. There is a lot in between.

There is a long thread somewhere on the effects of pluto transits.
It reads like lessons in survival.

The danger is getting sucked into the obsession and also looking for the hidden in everything.

There are good points in all summaries. I prefer to take directly from the myth (at least as given in English) of Pluto.

The lesson of Pluto is that its proper locus of empowerment is within. Look at where it is centered in the body: the internal reproductive organs, hidden deep inside. This is where life potential is reserved both for self and offspring. It seems that people who are prudes or in some way uncomfortable with sexuality so tied to life itself pass over self-empowerment and attempt to control or dominate others instead. (Sound like any politics you've observed?) The Plutonian problems come into play when we are attempting to dominate or overbalance the see-saw in our direction: and outside-in self-empowerment. In other words, attempting essentially a theft of the vital force or position of others to boost ourselves.

If we understand that the Divine is centered within every living thing in the exact proportion needed for our own ability to prosper, there is no need to engage in such power struggles with other egos. This relocates power within in a hub-based model of bodies, rather than dislocating it elsewhere, in some 'authority' or written source, etc. Deep inner knowing is the real power, the kind referred to in Judaic tradition in which 'know' meant 'intimate with.' When you have this, no one can shake or intimidate you. You are intimate with "God" because you know you have a piece of God within you.

Don't over-think it. You may have some questions you find later have no elusive answers. Just let the symbol be absorbed into your subconscious in a state of wanting only Truth first about/for yourself.

Thank you both for your very helpful comments.

Interesting topic, Miquar!

I would probably take bits and pieces from each of these authors; with the exception that I think Jeff Greene claims too much in his Pluto books where he equates Pluto with the soul. The soul has to be more than the entire chart. I think the chart says a lot about the soul's incarnation.

Another book to consider is Steven Forrest, The Book of Pluto.

It might be helpful to think through the mythology, where Pluto (Hades, Dis) was god of the underworld and the land of the dead. Death is inevitable, inexorable. It isn't pretty. Perhaps we can postpone death, but we cannot prevent it. But it seems to be a necessary part of life. Old things die off so that new ones can take their place.

To me:

Postive: The capacity for profound transformation. To become stronger through the worst life can throw at you (or that you have unthinkingly thrown at yourself.) Catharsis: the ability to let up and release repressed guilt, shame, regret, humilation, and repressed memories. The ability to move ahead in life without encumbrances of the past.

Positive metaphors: the phoenix rising from the ashes. New growth emerging in spring from the death and decay of autumn and winter. Composting. Tarot trump XX: "The resurrection"

Plutonian experiences : the feeling (Persephone-like) of going underground, or hiding out from people. Seeing things that you thought were very real and important suddenly seeming hollow and meaningless. Experiences of shame or guilt. Change that you don't want but cannot stop. Being at the effect of far more powerful people, whose actions you are powerless to prevent.

Negative: getting embroiled in meaningless contests of wills. Clinging to relationships, reputations, jobs, &c. that have metaphorically died off. Repressing uncomfortable memories of the past. Blaming other people for your misfortunes. Tarot trumps: The Devil, The Tower

Choice-Centred astrology recommendations: A difficult Pluto transit is a good time to clear out anything that is metaphorically dead or dying in your life. Especially, clear out or remodel your basement if you have one; a closet, garage, cupboard, or your desk if you don't. End any relationships that truly do not support you. Anything with an "out with the old, in with the new" flavour to it.

Take up spelunking (caving) or diving. Take long walks alone after dark (bring your dog or companion if your neighbourhood is risky.) Spend time on a clear night away from the city contemplating how vast the universe is-- and how uncaring. Gardening is especially a good way to get in touch with the themes of death and renewal if you live in a temperate climate. Get your hands in the dirt! Compost your old kitchen vegetable scraps, and use them as fertilizer once they've decayed.

Read P. D. James mysteries. Volunteer at your local hospice or crisis hot-line. Don't take yourself so seriously-- your ego is also something subject to metaphorical death during a tough Pluto transit, so try some "gallows humour".

Give up hair colouring, make-up, teeth whiteners, and any kind of artefice about your appearance. You are what you are.

Challenge yourself to see the world as a beautiful place, despite all of the crummy things that happen to people, wars, famines, violence, and the like.

hi miquar,

interesting thread on pluuuuuuuuuuuutooooooooooo. thanks for sharing.

i like the idea of pluto amplifying what it touches.. where would guitar players be without amplifiers? lol.. saxophone would still rule..

i notice you mentioned neptune being inside pluto orbit.. funny thing - when pluto moves thru scorpio it is actually closer and more inside the orbit of neptune in relation to the sun.. it has a crazy orbit basically..

another interesting astronomical feature of pluto is that it is made of a substance similar to earth, unlike those other gaseous bodies between us and it.. i always found that interesting..

i have pluto aspecting a lot of my chart and conjunct jupiter, so maybe that is why i think the amplify word is a good one.

i am presently liking using mars for the scorpio rulership which is more of a trad thing.. i think pluto and mars have some similarities, but pluto just seems more extreme.. plutonium would be an example of this.. no matter how much trouble one can get into with a few swords and daggers of mars, it doesn't compare.. and if you think it is cold on mars, lol...

as for darkness - same deal... pluto is dark, lol.. maybe that is why it has this association with mystery and things hidden.. one could say that about all the planets from saturn and out too i suppose...

remember pluto got a demotion recently.. it was knocked off its perch by eris.. i think eris is still transversing aries and i wonde about the nature of this flying object further out from pluto too...

neptune - i meditate
pluto - i radiate, lol...

Pluto?

Quote
"looking for a well built 18-30-year old to be slaughted and then consumed."

Armin Meiwes,(Metzgermeister)DOB,1 December 1961, Essen Germany.

J.R.

Pluto?? To destroy and discard forever what is not working in your life whether you want it to or not. There is no gray area with Pluto, it just says "it's time" you did not learn your lesson when I provided you with beneficial transits, with the challenging transit I am going to wipe-out everything you have ever known and worked for.

In case you haven't guessed I am going through a difficult transit of Pluto to my MC.

Ive gotten a lot out of reading these fascinating responses. Thanks everyone.

Sandstone - Yes its mind-boggling to think that Eris is still in the same sign it was in when I was born over 40 years ago. Earlier this year I suddenly decided to google it, and made a note of the time. When I looked at this time astrologically later that evening I found the following:

Eris was at 21AR26
Mercury was at 7SG06 (almost exactly sesqiquadrate Eris)
Ascendant was at 7VI10 (exactly sesquiquadrate Eris and square Mercury)

My Mercury/Pluto midpoint is at 6SG21. My Sun/Mars midpoint is at 21CP18.

Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread. Hopefully even more people will share their thoughts on Pluto.

Hi Vista. Yes I think one of the most difficult times of my life was when Pluto was square my Sun, semisquare Venus and semisquare Uranus all at the same time. I had just discovered astrology while looking for self-help books to try and sort myself, and any future relationships, out. I was getting agrophobic and ended up just hiding away studying astrology. It was definitely the end of one chapter and the beginning of another. I couldn't have grown up if the old chapter had continued. Mind you that was 17 years ago and I wonder how far I've come! Maybe when Pluto and Uranus hit the same points together in 2012 and 2013 that will do the trick!

Thanks JerryRR. I just looked at the Noon chart. Sun conjunct Mars in Sagittarius, both closely square Pluto and these all making hard minor aspects (semisquares and a sesquiquadrate) to Saturn. If he was born in the early hours of the morning he would have a close Moon Pluto conjunction, but it was out of orb by late morning. I think its interesting that he had Sun and Mars in Sagittarius, with Saturn in Capricorn and Pluto in Virgo. Perhaps something about needing to have ultimate control over the realm of the flesh (earth), largely because of the tendency of Sagittarius to resist the bondage of the earth realm.

Moon would be in Virgo sextile Neptune if it was closely conjunct Pluto, and so adding to the difficult issues to do with the body, which could have then been projected onto his victim.

And of course he didn't go skulking around in alleys - he published (Sagittarius) his request in a newspaper! This outlandish outspokenness is also perhaps reflected by his Mercury in Sagittarius closely square Uranus, combined with Jupiter in Aquarius. He certainly shocked a lot of people.

Uranus is opposite Chiron, making a tight T square to Mercury. Perhaps the thought processes that led up to his actions were driven by an inner tension between Uranus and Chiron.

You know what's funny? I is that no one discusses "reproduction" which is really a very Plutonian process. The whole "irrevocable change" thing... the metamorposis... is really about a woman's body. She undergoes a lot of Plutonia change during her life.
Most women first menstruate...that is irrevocable change. She loses her virginitiy (Plutonian change) - she becomes pregnant - very Plutonian - and the ultimate is the bringing an actual other human being from her body.... metamorphosis... and when nature is done with her she undergoes menopause. God.... how do we women do it?

And because we do it, women are much more "in tune" with the physical universe than men are because our bodies represent literally the Plutonian experience.

There are so many other Plutonian experiences, but this is the core basic one.

Of course when you get int Pluto and the PSYCHE it all becomes psychological and the physical metamorphoses become emotional, mental, and metaphorical.

Pluto represents the "big bang" of creation. Nuclear energy. We all have it. Birth and death is played out within us.
LIN

miquar said:

Hi Vista. Yes I think one of the most difficult times of my life was when Pluto was square my Sun, semisquare Venus and semisquare Uranus all at the same time. I had just discovered astrology while looking for self-help books to try and sort myself, and any future relationships, out. I was getting agrophobic and ended up just hiding away studying astrology. It was definitely the end of one chapter and the beginning of another. I couldn't have grown up if the old chapter had continued. Mind you that was 17 years ago and I wonder how far I've come! Maybe when Pluto and Uranus hit the same points together in 2012 and 2013 that will do the trick!

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You know you are the second person who has brought up semisquares. Honestly, i never game them much power or thought but I am sort of wondering now. The first time T Pluto conjunct my MC I lost my job, but it's hard for me to believe one transit could do this so I wonder if there were semisquares going on at the same time? I think I will have to take a look. I usually don't see events the first transit either, normally it's the second or third that does it(not sure what a 4th does).I do know Pluto moving over the MC and into the 10th usually points to a career change if whatever you are doing is not working...clearly mine wasn't.

Interesting, Lin! Although many women do not have children. I have two but I didn't see very much about the experience as Plutonian; except perhaps during the final throes of labour and delivery (with unmedicated natural childbirths.) They are adults now, but when they were young, in retrospect, the experience was very moonly. Caring, nurturing, all those good things.

I left out the actual death experience for Pluto, as well, because I have just seen too many posts by frightened individuals, when Pluto moves into their 8th house or somesuch. A little knowledge of astrology is a dangerous thing, and I don't think we should play Sorceror's Apprentice.

miquar ~
i appreciate your thought that survival skills match the level of threats ~ though i do feel that pluto adds a few extra punches just to make his point.
natal planets ~ sun thru mars ~ when joined with pluto likes to twist the knife a couple more times. a silent booyah, a primal response, toward anyone who took pluto to that place or tried to threatenhim at the place that pluto brought them.

Neptune does cross over Pluto's orbit and is sometimes the outer planet briefly... They both represent water signs in astrology and the other realms such as death and passing over.

MaeMae said:

miquar ~
i appreciate your thought that survival skills match the level of threats ~ though i do feel that pluto adds a few extra punches just to make his point.
natal planets ~ sun thru mars ~ when joined with pluto likes to twist the knife a couple more times. a silent booyah, a primal response, toward anyone who took pluto to that place or tried to threatenhim at the place that pluto brought them.

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I think that you are right, I have Moon square Pluto from the 3rd and I had a sibling like that, the motives were jealousies in the main. She passed over with tumours, also an influence with Pluto. I also suffered in the workplace with backstabbing and betrayals especially from women. I figured it had to be my karma as I never invited that, it seemed to me. Was it the energies I was putting out, perhaps? Pluto is deep and often sub conscious.

Claire ~
i, too, have moon pluto square.
hades moon.
any moon~pluto aspect.
underground emotions that pluto absolutely has the power to manifest in others.
Pluto doesn't give a rats@ss how he got there. he only knows he getting out or gonna die trying.
and pity the fool who takes him there.
we all got it.
we all know it.
sometimes it scares us so other people we choose as proxy's.

vista,

i think the 45 and 135 are 2 aspects that are underrated.. i think they deserve more attention then they usually get.. i use these aspects all the time..