Intense attraction between straight and gay man...can you help?

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sandstone

Banned
I might as well just officially disprove sandstone's "disproving" of my hypothesis (if you know what I mean lol). Her justification is baseless for two reasons:

1) She claimed that she used her chart. There are 2 things wrong with that: A) One example can't possibly disprove my hypotheses. You need quite a large sample to disprove it (and prove it, too). - this is true.. no proof on your position has been provided in some conclusive manner and this is all i continue to point out while giving you a few examples where it didn't hold true as well.. So far, I'm seeing more examples that prove it rather than disprove it. what you see and what you share are 2 separate things.. talk is cheap which is primarily all i see from you.. And B) She never showed her chart, so how do we know that she really has that particular placement to begin with? lol - for someone who was thru debating with me, you sure know how to make a fool of yourself in your shifting position.. (I hear the screams now: SHOW THE CHART! SHOW THE CHART!). I joke, of course :happy:. This isn't Obama we're talking about...

2) The examples given previously (JFK, Rock Hudson, and Brad Pitt) by her are really poor examples to give. JFK's chart isn't even given in that link she gave. Also, ESPECIALLY for celebrities, how do you know that that's their real birth time? Brad Pitt's MIGHT be ok, since I don't see any shred of non-heterosexuality in his chart. But for Rock Hudson, I can practically guarantee that that's NOT his birth chart...at all. I would have to have actual, physical proof of his birth certificate in my hands or visible somewhere else.
the onus of proof remains with the one making the hypothesis, otherwise it remains primarily an empty and unsubstantiated hypothesis.. go for it Astrologer of Sexuality, par excellence
 

tsmall

Premium Member
Time and time again, I've been noticing that Uranus and/or Neptune in the 8th and/or 12th Houses is a very clear indicator of homosexuality or bisexuality in a person's chart. That theory of mine has never been proven wrong in charts with those particular placements.

Interesting. Do you look at charts in Placidus or whole sign?

Because you stated this so definitively, I wanted to ask...I personally have Uranus in 12th in equal or Placidus. You also mentioned Saturn in 8th as a marker for homosexuality or bisexuality. Saturn is in the 8th sign from my ASC. I am a 42 year old fully sexual woman. Tell me, am I either homosexual or bisexual?
 

waybread

Well-known member
Please don't retrieve them waybread - so many of them are so replete with homophobic assumptions, they are offensive in the extreme.

Oh, no worries! I just didn't like to see them re-hashed here.

Steven Forrest, who has probably read tens of thousands of charts in his practice, says he doesn't believe you can tell whether someone is gay or straight from their horoscope.

This was a topic for delineation in Hellenistic astrology, but we have no way to check their accuracy rates, other than applying their methods to charts today. The Astro-DataBank at Astrodienst might be a good place to start.

One issue I have with the whole question is the thesis (which I believe to be still current among professional psychologists) is that many people have a blend of hetero- and some same-sex orientations. People who are more hetero- tend not to act upon their same-sex orientation and may suppress it. Some people are more completely one way or the other. Bisexual people, cross-dressers, and trans-gender people further show that the question of sexual orientation is by no means simple. In ancient Greek society, gay relationships between married senior males and boys were considered normal. In Victorian girls' schools, it was considered normal for girls to share beds, kiss, hold hands, and write love-letters to each other. So what is considered gay and what is considered straight?

PD, I think sandstone is male. It's a little below-board to refer to your PMs about another member by way of attacking him/her personally. You have no idea how many sandstone is getting, or whether you are receiving them from credible "witnesses." Two PMs? Three? Really.

Also, Stranger gave a birth time rounded to five minutes. Maybe it was an estimate but if so, I missed that part.
 
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sandstone

Banned
PD - no uranus or neptune in the 5, 8 or 12th house.. you might have faired slightly better if you'd stuck with the lady who mentioned this hypothesis to you a few years ago and kept saturn in the mix... it showed up in house 12 in some of these a bit more then random.. now, before you quickly discount my small example here, consider working harder to convince others of your position instead of turning the thread into a personal attack on my challenge to your inherited hypothesis.. this is just off part of page one using the search field with your hypothesis.. 2 are not included that did qualify.. 2 out of 9 doesn't work in your favour this far in.. maybe it will change further in..

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hay,_Harry

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Isherwood,_Christopher

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Sullivan,_Louis_Graydon

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/White,_Edmund

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Norton,_Rictor

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Bory,_Jean-Louis

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Douglas,_Lord_Alfred

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Douglas,_Lord_Alfred

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Praunheim,_Rosa_von
 

Inconjunct

Well-known member
PD - Rock Hudson's birth time on the Astrodatabank has a Rodden Rating of AA, that's usually considered a sign that it's as accurate as possible. You really can't have this self-serving argument that a chart which proves your thesis is accurate but one that disproves it must perforce be inaccurate.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Due to evidence from hospital workers as well as home birth midwives - who have stated that birth as well as death times are frequently noted at varying times after the event, sometimes hours - I therefore remain unconvinced that any natal chart can have an 'accurate' time. It is an interesting subject IMO :smile:
 

Inconjunct

Well-known member
Jupiter - you're probably right and so the next question is - does it matter? Back in ye olden dayes of William Lilly, time was not measured in the digitally enhanced, second-perfect way we have now and on top of that, there was no standard time for different parts of the same country, let alone any concept of GMT. And yet, they were still able to knock up charts that served their purpose well. Unless the Ascendant is at either extreme end of a sign, it's very unlikely that pinpoint accuracy would make all that much of a huge big old difference in the grand scheme of things.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Does it matter that time of birth/death is incorrect by hours - sometimes days - possibly weeks or months in some cases? That depends on your point of view. There are those who expect astrologers to give accurate assessments - how can astrologers give accurate assessments when their data is inaccurate? :smile:
 

Inconjunct

Well-known member
Days and weeks is one matter. Minutes another.

Do you think Lilly gave inaccurate assessments? He didn't have access to digital technology for nanosecond-perfect timing.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
If a birth time is hours out then it matters IMO

You can have the best astrological software but if the time of birth you input is hours out then the chart describes someone - but who?

Birth times are not necessarily reliable, either in the past or in the present and it is not uncommon today to find that time of birth is based on the memories of family members. Human error is not infrequent. Sometimes the wrong day is noted on the birth record. It happens.

When a person expects an astrologer to give an accurate interpretation without providing an accurate time of birth then obviously that is expecting too much IMO :smile:
 

sandstone

Banned
inconjunct - thanks for pointing out what i also found interesting - PD dismissing the quality of hudsons birth data.. i suppose this is the same reason PD is not commenting on the other charts given - all the data is suspect.. it is amusing to think how PD is supposed to know when uranus or neptune are in the 5,8, and 12th house at the same time that all data must be treated as suspect... or perhaps it is - all data that doesn't conform to PD's theory must be treated as suspect? i think that is closer to PD's reality.

as for lilly using precise data - this is less likely then in todays world.. mind you valens must have used even less precise data prior to the advent of clocks..

anyone serious about astrology would take some time to work on hudsons chart running solar arc directions and transits for example to the data given on the astrodatabank page and note how the time appears to be very close based off astrological techniques..

always relying on some undefined hospital workers opnion to trump concrete astrological work that could be done to see the validity of hudsons time for oneself, suggests the person doing this is less interested in working with astrology and more interested in sowing seeds of confusion over all birth data.. it is another reason to do the astrological work to verify the time as opposed to holding to a regular position of doubt..
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
IMO because the health care workers are busy attending to both mother and newborn at the time of birth it is obvious that the time cannot be noted until some time after the actual birth – particularly when there are complications/medical emergencies to mother and/or newborn. Birth times are therefore in general an estimate. IMO a natal chart is dependent on a correct time of birth because without that there is no reliable ascendant. If birth time notation was considered universally reliable then there would be no requirement for the many and varied means of rectification resorted to by William Lilley et al - however that is merely my own personal opinion :smile:

inconjunct - thanks for pointing out what i also found interesting - PD dismissing the quality of hudsons birth data.. i suppose this is the same reason PD is not commenting on the other charts given - all the data is suspect.. it is amusing to think how PD is supposed to know when uranus or neptune are in the 5,8, and 12th house at the same time that all data must be treated as suspect... or perhaps it is - all data that doesn't conform to PD's theory must be treated as suspect? i think that is closer to PD's reality.

as for lilly using precise data - this is less likely then in todays world.. mind you valens must have used even less precise data prior to the advent of clocks..

anyone serious about astrology would take some time to work on hudsons chart running solar arc directions and transits for example to the data given on the astrodatabank page and note how the time appears to be very close based off astrological techniques..

always relying on some undefined hospital workers opnion to trump concrete astrological work that could be done to see the validity of hudsons time for oneself, suggests the person doing this is less interested in working with astrology and more interested in sowing seeds of confusion over all birth data.. it is another reason to do the astrological work to verify the time as opposed to holding to a regular position of doubt..
 

sandstone

Banned
[deleted attacking comment - Moderator]

one can move on and do the astrological work necessary to verify birth data.. this requires moving on from the realm of hypothesis regardless what the hypothesis - midwifes spin on birth times and etc. etc.

start with transits, learn how to use sec progs and solar arc data directions to the angles...learning how to do this will allow you to rise above the constant uncertainty that some would appear keen to cast over the whole art of astrology while at the same time practicing none of it..

for example rock hudsons chart has both the solar arc direction of ascendant and midheaven to the conjunction and square to his natal mars for the time of his wedding november 9 1955.. now some will say - oh, but the time can be way out.. this is only one way to overcome these perpetual naysayers on valid birthdata... medical diagnosis for aids - june 1984 - same time that transit neptune is opposing and squaring directly onto his angles exact... this is just the start of recognizing the quality of the data, but it requires some astrology work, as opposed to endless speculation working to negate birth data from AA charts at astrodatabank for example...

inconjunct - thanks again for bringing this up..
 
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Inconjunct

Well-known member
Jupiter - at least here in the UK, a midwife is required to keep contemporaneous records. If a birth was complicated, there would be more than one professional present. I think it is highly doubtful that a birth time which was recorded in a developed country in the last -say- 100 years could be inaccurate by hours or days.
 

sandstone

Banned
[deleted attacking comments - Moderator]

...first his chart can't be used as the time is suspect ( "Jupiter is absolutely correct"), and now his chart can be used to prove homosexuality in an alternative manner...

the many linked charts from adb that don't conform to your adopted hypothesis...
 
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MaeMae

Banned
sphincter says "what?"
(nonetheless, I like your gumption and ill thought out but certain truths in your mind. Are you aquariuan or uranian? straight, gay or undecided? try looking at BML in charts if you really want to take this one on.)

~used to love foie de gras
'til i ate a bearclaw
now nothing takes the space
of filling in the unanswerable place"
 
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MaeMae

Banned
ode to stranger

thought i had a number
turned out to be a bummer
i'm waiting til this summer
to come out from under...

stranger ~ wait a few months. good things to come. in the meantime, understand proxy/catalyst therom.
 

poyi

Premium Member
Regarding to accurate birth time, the only way to ensure it accuracy is by studying previous transits against major life events in month, day and time. There is no other way.

To think about it logically, you should always allow possibility for human error. Don't forget that major surgery, many well trained, experienced surgeon and nurses would still leave some equipments behind. After all, human makes mistakes. So how do we know that birth time is 100% accurate without doing the backward checking? If you are going to predict something and of course everyone only want to predict with Great Accuracy, you should really first check out the birth time first.

I don't see there is a need to argue about it.
 

tsmall

Premium Member
Interesting. Do you look at charts in Placidus or whole sign?

Because you stated this so definitively, I wanted to ask...I personally have Uranus in 12th in equal or Placidus. You also mentioned Saturn in 8th as a marker for homosexuality or bisexuality. Saturn is in the 8th sign from my ASC. I am a 42 year old fully sexual woman. Tell me, am I either homosexual or bisexual?

I am still hoping for an answer. :unsure: Because if Uranus in 12th is always a "dead" ringer, then my entire romantic life has been wrong all this time. I need to know, should I sit down and talk to my husband?
 
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