Deceptive people..

Gaer, Kingsley, good points, as I read between the lines ...

All those who attain any degree of power or authority are forced sometimes to be deceptive. I think I'm a pretty honest person, but at one point I managed about 1000 people and sometimes, when the company was planning changes, I was unable to tell anyone what I knew was going to happen, even though it would impact on some people tremendously.

Does deception include not saying or doing anything? Probably ...

Interesting area of discussion.

4leafclovah, Jupiter is happy in Scorpio, although if afflicted he becomes easily discontented and manipulative. I think Jupiter under affliction always inflates the ego.

wayne penner said:

Gaer, Kingsley, good points, as I read between the lines ...

All those who attain any degree of power or authority are forced sometimes to be deceptive. I think I'm a pretty honest person, but at one point I managed about 1000 people and sometimes, when the company was planning changes, I was unable to tell anyone what I knew was going to happen, even though it would impact on some people tremendously.

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Sometimes people at a high level in government can legitimately say: "You don't want to know the truth. You can't HANDLE the truth."

I'm thinking of Jack Nicholson's lines.

There are situations in which being "honest" would result in widespread panic.

I'm thinking for instance of your Kennedy example. What would have happened had people known how close they were to being drawn into WWIII during the Cuban Missile Crisis? We had SOME idea of what was going on, but we found out most of it later.

I'm terribly skeptical. I don't think that honesty and politics mix. An honest politician is just another oxymoron to me.

On the other hand, I'm truly grateful not to have the responsiblity of running things.

Gaer

kizmetbaby said:

Sorry about that...I keep forgetting...

July 12, 1966 is the date.

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That's always a terrible problem. If the day is 13 or above, it's okay.

If you check out December 7, 1966, you will see what I think is a very difficult chart.

So, now that I have the right date, I have more questions than answers.

First, I hope an AC of 17Can25 is correct.

There is a striking amount of water in this chart. 5 planets in water, 6 for those who count Chiron. Water AC, water MC.

Mercury makes not major aspects to any planet with an orb of 6 degrees set.

There is a square to Neptune, but it's over 8 degrees. I can't find anything in aspect to Mercury that is not more than 7 degrees. That's rather unusual.

Saturn is square to Mars, tight orb, but that's about it.

It does appear that Neptune makes many aspects, mostly trines and sextiles. The only hard aspect I see is the inconjunct to Venus.

Venus appears to have the most difficult aspects, square to MC, Pluto, Uranus, inconjunct Neptune, and it's in the 12th, along with Mars.

I would have guessed self-deception here. I would have guessed a person who would do do damage to self through illusion rather than damage to others. Can you safely give us any feedback about the KIND of lying or decption? Do you see it as deliberate, planned, malicious and successful?

Or does it backfire?

I have to admit this chart is a mystery to me. I feel blocked in trying to read it.

Gaer

gaer said:

Sometimes people at a high level in government can legitimately say: "You don't want to know the truth. You can't HANDLE the truth."

I'm thinking of Jack Nicholson's lines.

There are situations in which being "honest" would result in widespread panic.

I'm thinking for instance of your Kennedy example. What would have happened had people known how close they were to being drawn into WWIII during the Cuban Missile Crisis? We had SOME idea of what was going on, but we found out most of it later.

I'm terribly skeptical. I don't think that honesty and politics mix. An honest politician is just another oxymoron to me.

On the other hand, I'm truly grateful not to have the responsiblity of running things.

Gaer

Unfortunately, once people in power begin hiding the truth, it is just one step from hiding things, because they really need to be hidden, to hiding them because it becomes convenient and protects them from their own mistakes, from their greed, and from their foolishness.



Does deception include not saying or doing anything? Probably ...

Interesting area of discussion.

4leafclovah, Jupiter is happy in Scorpio, although if afflicted he becomes easily discontented and manipulative. I think Jupiter under affliction always inflates the ego.

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Gaer I prefer Jack Nicholson in the beautiful love story "As Good as it Gets", but in any case ...

Perhaps "deception" is too strong a word when it comes to power used in "favor" of the people or the organization, but then of course you run into the issue of which organization ... I am sure that in Nazi Germany in the 1930's many of the heroes of that state were considered great men, Hitler, Goering etc. although we see them as cruel tyrants.

We get into philosophical problems when we try to handle abstruse moral concepts - is it "good" that someone just won a Mercedes and "bad" when he drives it into a brick wall? Had he not won the thing in the first place he would be alive, but then would that be "good" that he was still alive if he was secretly a mass murderer?

The whole quality of "deception" as a concept is a very interesting and difficult area to discover, most certainly when it involves more than simply cheating on your lover ...

wayne penner said:

Gaer I prefer Jack Nicholson in the beautiful love story "As Good as it Gets", but in any case ...

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I'd love to discuss him as an actor, but I don't want to get off topic!

Perhaps "deception" is too strong a word when it comes to power used in "favor" of the people or the organization, but then of course you run into the issue of which organization ... I am sure that in Nazi Germany in the 1930's many of the heroes of that state were considered great men, Hitler, Goering etc. although we see them as cruel tyrants.

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This brings up another topic: do we ever get the truth about anything? Even after a long time has passed? I have no trouble dispising Hitler and company, same with Stalin and so many others.

However, those who are presented as the "good guys" often have skeletons in the closet. If you want to talk about "profiles in courage", where was JFK when McCarthy was in power? Seems he kept his idealism pretty much in the closet then. Was that political realism (no other choice because it was a battle he could not win) or cowardice?

I won't make that judgement. I will say that the leaders who are most true to their ideals are seldom reelected. John Adams is a good example. From all that I've read, he stuck to his principles as much as any of his contemporaries. That much honesty is poitical suicide.

We get into philosophical problems when we try to handle abstruse moral concepts - is it "good" that someone just won a Mercedes and "bad" when he drives it into a brick wall? Had he not won the thing in the first place he would be alive, but then would that be "good" that he was still alive if he was secretly a mass murderer?

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I'd be more inclined to mention "does the end justify the means" as the central problem—which of course is one of those philsophical questions that has never been answered and never will be.

gaer said:

I'd love to discuss him as an actor, but I don't want to get off topic!

This brings up another topic: do we ever get the truth about anything? Even after a long time has passed? I have no trouble dispising Hitler and company, same with Stalin and so many others.

However, those who are presented as the "good guys" often have skeletons in the closet. If you want to talk about "profiles in courage", where was JFK when McCarthy was in power? Seems he kept his idealism pretty much in the closet then. Was that political realism (no other choice because it was a battle he could not win) or cowardice?

I won't make that judgement. I will say that the leaders who are most true to their ideals are seldom reelected. John Adams is a good example. From all that I've read, he stuck to his principles as much as any of his contemporaries. That much honesty is poitical suicide.

I'd be more inclined to mention "does the end justify the means" as the central problem—which of course is one of those philsophical questions that has never been answered and never will be.

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Gaer we probably never do get to the true truth, the deep unyielding cold as liquid nitrogen truth, about anything at all. Maybe we don't really want to know as a deep deep secret part of each one of us doesn't believe we will ever die - few human beings are able to face their own impending demise rationally.

As humans we naturally hide everything we dislike about ourselves, and point out the foibles and faults in others that we have managed to identify in ourselves. "Always listen to what a man criticizes in others - those are his own faults" (I can't remember who said that).

So I suppose we are all deceptive in some way.

But it is a matter of degree. A woman wears a padded bra to a pick-up joint, a man pretends he's a millionaire so he can remove it later. They are both disappointed, and locked in an illusion, and maybe that is what it eventually all is, an illusion, so maybe it's Neptune after all ...

To me, John Lennon summed it all up in a few words ...

"Living is easy with eyes closed
Misunderstanding all you see
Its getting hard to be someone, but it all works out
It doesnt matter much to me"

Kizmet,
I set up the chart, (for *liar* Bremerhaven Germany)...hopefully correctly. Can you confirm that asc is 17.25 cancer? and that Jupiter is there on the Asc?
Thanx, Lillyjgc

wayne penner said:

The question is whether it is harmless ego-inflation or something more sinister, whereby the person actively wants to deceive you ... but that is the Saturn situation, not Neptune.

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I can give an example of the cloudy waters of Neptune: I use to tell people that I owned a house when I use to rent. I did this mainly out of "me" wanting to believe this and not wanting to lie to someone for my benefit.

The question is also who benefits from the deception? If its both parties as in the example of the padded bra and fake millionaire man - then each party is happy so does it matter?

Sometimes the person who is receiving the deceit can benefit as well- i.e. happy thoughts for the fake millionaire man about the padded bra.

If the person doing the deception is for their benefit in order to manipulate at the “cost” of the other person then yes - that’s Saturn.

As for Bill Clinton – Who I voted for and like – he was just being a lawyer. Their creative thinking/rational/lies go with the territory.

Hi folks,
Gaer said *There are some occasions when knowing the truth could cause widespread panic* and *.....people cant handle the truth*....

I think its a shame that as a society we have come to accept these parameters. Having been lied to my whole life (!) I have a real aversion to deception....the with holding of information is abhorrent to me. Of COURSE people can handle the truth- they have just effectively been deceived by authorities into believing that *what you don't know won't hurt you*....theres just no acceptable excuse to me for anyone to lie-about anything.
As for wearing padded bras to pick-up joints-wouldnt know-havent been to a pick up joint....but those deceptions count to me too- (no padded bras in my closet!) and the world would definitely be a better place if people told the truth straight-up to one another....
Honestly.
Lillyjgc

If we were going to get really structual about this we deceive other people all the time, and ourselves.

What woman walks out the door without being caked in make-up? Isn't that deceptive?

Nothing against women, but this is a really difficult area if you want to be strictly scientific, which of course we really should be.

Guys pretend all the time, deceive women all the time, although the women know it usually. Young guys lie about their, um, "dimensions" and try to impress with money or cars, while old guys like me try to impress women by not falling over into the cheese section at the grocery store.

It's definitely a grand world. But we probably all deceive, ourselves and everyone around us.

lillyjgc said:

Hi folks,
Gaer said *There are some occasions when knowing the truth could cause widespread panic* and *.....people cant handle the truth*....

I think its a shame that as a society we have come to accept these parameters. Having been lied to my whole life (!) I have a real aversion to deception....the with holding of information is abhorrent to me. Of COURSE people can handle the truth- they have just effectively been deceived by authorities into believing that *what you don't know won't hurt you*....theres just no acceptable excuse to me for anyone to lie-about anything.
As for wearing padded bras to pick-up joints-wouldnt know-havent been to a pick up joint....but those deceptions count to me too- (no padded bras in my closet!) and the world would definitely be a better place if people told the truth straight-up to one another....
Honestly.
Lillyjgc

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your a rare breed lilly......but one that should be carried on through time.
I believe in honesty,but am no saint, fear is one reason i have lied in the past.....
I dont go out of my way to hurt people , but will tell things straight up if asked. If you ask me, if you look fat in a dress and you do, im not gonna tell you that your a fat slob, but i am not going to tell you that you look great either.

no padded bras in my closet either.....what do ya do when you've been picked up! (those chicken fillets that women use also are dodgy....same goes for implants, and cosmetic surgery.....i mean who do these people think they are kidding!?)

wayne penner said:

If we were going to get really structual about this we deceive other people all the time, and ourselves.
What woman walks out the door without being caked in make-up? Isn't that deceptive?
Nothing against women, but this is a really difficult area if you want to be strictly scientific, which of course we really should be.
Guys pretend all the time, deceive women all the time, although the women know it usually. Young guys lie about their, um, "dimensions" and try to impress with money or cars, while old guys like me try to impress women by not falling over into the cheese section at the grocery store.
It's definitely a grand world. But we probably all deceive, ourselves and everyone around us.

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I think this a part of the Venus game played by all creatures when the mating season is on. heheheh - I think its pure Venus (Aphrodite) - remember how aphrodite owned a magic girdle that she put on to make herself the most desirable when she had the hots for someone.
I think all that is fun and a part of the love game & does not hurt the ordinary person. Maybe super sensitive triple pisces may feel deceived by lipstick or a padded bra but by the main.....

Deception to me is telling only part of the story or tell a midsleading or outright inaccurate story to mislead someone for personal gain be it to gain power or money etc.
Pluto can get in on the act here. Pluto Sun can tell a lie without the flicker of an eye if they think it will add to their power base.

To me deception is where a party is damaged in some way which reduces their options or happiness or financial position.
Sometimes Pluto Sun justifies it (probably with Jupiter) saying it was for the good of the person or society etc.
They are the worst to me. Families & marriages can get torn assunder by that kind of hubris.
Of course with hubris like that eventually one of the astrological gods knocks on the door and all is revealed. aka president nixon when saturn crossed his midheaven.

Honesty is the basis on which justice works-its a fundament of society...I dont know where you go to *hang out* mr Penner but apparently the women are caked in make-up-sounds revolting to me.....(dont wear make-up either).
Sounds like an environment that attracts people who are involved in creating illusions...not my sort of place......
The act of deception is one of disrespect for the other person- deceiving someone gives you power over them...however subtle, Whether it be the *turning a blind eye* type of deception, or the *sticking the head in the sand *type of deception, right up to deliberate misleading by omission or outright misrepresentation.
In a chart I'd be looking for aspects that involve the misuse of personal power-sun conjunct pluto for example.Mars square or opposite saturn might be another. But as Jupiter is the planet of the law and truth I would definitely look for even easy trine aspects to jupiter as well as nasty aspects...The worst liars I have met have been sagittarians.....by far the most, seconded by aries afflicted and cancer.The moon might trigger the telling of a lie.Its often a *spur of the moment thing*....
Obviously mercury will be in it too- as mercury is the trickster. If a person has low self esteem they might lie to cover that up- to create a false impression, in which case ascendant and house 2 would be involved.
Lying to acquire money might show up through H2-H8 planetary relationships..
Lying to get sex might show up in H5 (or 8).....
Void of course moon has appeared in the charts of a few liars in my files.
I doubt theres any real way to identify whether or not a person is the liar or the one lied to. I have mercury conjunct neptune in my tenth (reputation)...all my life i have believed lies and am very gullible in that way..From the pain that that has caused me I've learnt to TRULY value the truth and to despise the antisocial behaviour of lying.When people lie to me now, I cut them out of my life, pretty well instantly....I know where it leads.
Truly.
Lillyjgc

A point about honesty:

If people I don't trust ask me questions that I don't think deserve an answer, they will either get no answer or a lie.

And I'm very glad that we can't read minds!

I consider myself a very honest person, but I am also suspicious, skeptical and cautious—as well as idealistic.

I think the truth is precious and something that should only be shared with people who have earned the right to share it.

Gaer

Gaer

in response to lillys comments, i would like to know if i would be seen as a liar/deceptive to anyone on the forum......

i have jupiter trine saturn.......jupiter sq mars(5 ish degree orb) and jupiter sq neptune(8 degree orb).............i ask becasue i really try not to lie....
I actually have a belief that it is like mask wearing....and doesnt help us see each other properly....i want people to see me as i am.....i need people to even look a bit below the surface with me....I want to see people as they are also. Seems like a bit of a waste of time to me, to go through life being deceptive......could miss out on loads.

what aspects would point to honesty?

Well I doubt there are any astrological aspects that would indicate "honesty".

Honesty, if it can even be defined is a moral choice, and changes according to your situation. For example, if you found yourself starving with no money would you steal a loaf of bread to stay alive? Of course you would, but would that be dishonest? Of course it would. Would you be dishonest? Of course not.

This debate is about moral choices, not astrology.

Good to see you posting Liquid. Have you managed to get some chocolate at the store yet? I know you have been hemmed in by the floods.

There ars some signs prone to being more open that others such as Aries sun types however some people also have an issue with being too honest or open. Jupiter does represent the truth in some cases however like deception there is a need to accept certain pin pointing limitations of astrolgy.

I would just like to say thankyou for those who have read my blog in the last month or so. There seems to be a dramatic number of 'hits' to the site and thats nice to know its being read by my fellow astrologers.

best
Kingsley

wayne penner said:

Well I doubt there are any astrological aspects that would indicate "honesty".

Honesty, if it can even be defined is a moral choice, and changes according to your situation. For example, if you found yourself starving with no money would you steal a loaf of bread to stay alive? Of course you would, but would that be dishonest? Of course it would. Would you be dishonest? Of course not.

This debate is about moral choices, not astrology.

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hope your not having a dig at the Aussie convinct history, and the first settlers that stole loaves of bread, to get themselves shipped to this fantastic country, now wayne........................

Well, I think positive aspects to Saturn might reflect honesty...honesty is about *social responsibility*, *reputation*, *how one is regarded....so I would look for aspects that produce a strong character. As we have seen, trines involving jupiter do not NECESSARILY reflect integrity or honesty but jupiter square mercury keeps coming up in the charts of people I have known to be *habitually* dishonest. Yes *everybody lies*, but some make it their modus operandi and I think its the latter we are discussing really.
its probably easier to see lying in a chart than it is to see honesty!

As I have just experienced being lied to in a big way I looked at the chart of the deceiver-her transiting pluto was cj her mercury/neptune at the time the deception took place.Transiting chiron/merc conjunction was semi-square the mercury/Neptune/Pluto!!!!!From her h10 to her H9....Her sun sign is sagittarius.Her asc is Aries.....Undoubtedly her reputation will be adversely affected.
The reason I see for *not lying* is that I believe *what goes around, comes around*...nobody likes to be lied to-its humiliating and demeaning.
Cheers,
lillyjgc

Liquid Green said:

in response to lillys comments, i would like to know if i would be seen as a liar/deceptive to anyone on the forum......

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LG,

If I saw your chart and knew nothing about you, I would make some guesses. Please bear in mind that these would be guesses only.

I never tell people "who they are" by using their charts as "proof" that my guesses are correct. In the forum itself, where I am especially careful, I ask questions. Then if the person I'm talking to confirms my hunches, great. If not, I'm going to keep an open mind. It's possible I that I've missed the boat, so to speak.

People have attempted to read my chart and have given me "advice" that has been so far off the mark, I just laughed.

So here are my astrological assumptions. You can confirm or set me straight. When two planets such as Mercury and Venus are in very close conjunction, I think of their energies as "fused together". By this I mean that it is very hard to separate them. In my case, with Sun/Neptune/Moon all in Libra, it's really hard for me to separate the energies represented by those three planets, all in the same house and sign, all conjunct.

This represents two opposite things, both true: I have a potentally HUGE capacity for self-deception, and I've had to live through several hard wake-up calls to get beyond that. I believe that happened before or by my first saturn return. (My second is just ending now, with Saturn Rx moving backwards to with a few minutes of another conjunction to my natal Saturn by transit.)

So I can lie to myself, or deceive myself by not seeing what I do not wish to see. Call that one giant pair of rose-colored glasses.

The flip side of this is incredible idealism. I was a wide-eyed kid who believe the best of everyone and was horrified by any kind of cruelty, violence, etc.

Am I liar? I definitely don't think so. Have I deceived myself in the past? Most definitely.

In my opinion, Neptune aspects, even supposedly easy ones, tend to make us more idealistic, and that can easily lead to escape of all kinds. Thus the link between Neptune and drugs. The idea is that people who are tremendously sensitized to the harshness of the world often try to use chemicals/alcohol to make it go away, to forget, to ease the hurt.

Does this mean that all people with Neptune prominent have substance abuse problems? Obviously not.

So, you have Mercury/Venus right on the AC. I see all those things as fused together, into one thing. To a great extent, I read that to mean that you are very much as you appear. Is that good or bad? Again, only you can judge.

But I would be shocked to find out that with those planets on the AC, sextile Neptune/NN, that you are not a rather idealistic person who is (or has been) hurt by the world as it is, rather than very comfortable with the world as it is.

This is certainly true for me. Neptune is a double-edged sword for just that reason. There is always compassion/escape, idealism/self-deception, illumination/delusion. It cuts both ways.

I would start there. For me, seeing the world as it is (the hard facts, the disappointing, cruel side of life) is very difficult, but it has been necessary to accept. I really don't do a very good job of it, but I cope.

I'll let you decide if there is any truth in this for you too.

Gaer