Jupiter (retrograde in the first house

Pluto9th

Well-known member
Hi all,
In my natal chart (equal house type) I have a retrograde Jupiter in 29 degees sagittarius, the sign also being my rising sign or ascendent. Because Jupiter is 29 degrees, it is in the first house.
Any thoughts about this placement? What about the retrograde nature? In the classical system, it is supposed to weaken the effects of Jupiter, correct?
Thank you ahead of time!
Pluto9th

Birthdate info
Apr 28, 1959
9:37 pm
Santa Monica, CA
USA
 

Themis

Well-known member
Pluto9th said:
Hi all,
In my natal chart (equal house type) I have a retrograde Jupiter in 29 degees sagittarius, the sign also being my rising sign or ascendent. Because Jupiter is 29 degrees, it is in the first house.
Any thoughts about this placement? What about the retrograde nature? In the classical system, it is supposed to weaken the effects of Jupiter, correct?

i did not read your chart, just want to say that in terms of planet dignity, Jupiter at home is +5, retrograde is -5, since it's in the first, again +5, if not badly aspected by Mars and Saturn or conjonct south node, your natal Jupiter is still very strong.
 
B

Bob

Hi Pluto9th,

Your Jupiter is at 29.30 Scorpio.

Also, dignity scores take no part in natal work.


Good wishes


Bob
 
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Lissa

Well-known member
Hi Pluto9th!

Well,I have my natal Jupiter Retrograde too,mine being in the7th house and in Leo.

Curious,I don't feel the Retrograde motion of the planet causes any type of problem,neither see any difference in the way the planet expresses itself.I understand that any planet Retrograde is considered weak but I don't feel like my idealism and enthusiasm for life is compromised-in fact,I feel like that Retrograde Jupiter plays an important role in my life and personality,and I think the fact that it is in a fellow Fire sign adds a lot to it's strenght.So don't get worried because you have Jupiter Retrograde,I have it too and I'm pretty cheerful and enthusiasthic.Themis gave some veyr good input-the fact that you're Jupiter is in it's own house and in it's own sign makes it even stronger.In fact,since it is positioned in the house of the Ascendant,you may show Jupiterian traits in a more proeminent way.

Themis,I remember I once saw a website that had scores for each planet according to their positions and aspects,but I lost the link to it and I cna't remember which site it was..If it's not much trouble,could you please send me the link?

Thanks in advance.
Lissa
 
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Pluto9th

Well-known member
Hi themis,
Thank you for the helpful reply. I'm still a beginner, and have only begun to learn about the traditional system.
AnywaY, it's good to know that Jupiter is stilll fairly strong.
Jupiter is also squared with Pluto and my ascendent, 16 degees(?) Virgo.
Is that negative?
Pluto9th
 

Themis

Well-known member
Lissa said:
Themis,I remember I once saw a website that had scores for each planet according to their positions and aspects,but I lost the link to it and I cna't remember which site it was..If it's not much trouble,could you please send me the link?

Thanks in advance.
Lissa

lissa, to calculate the dignity/debility, see here http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html#liltab, and http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig2.html, id don't know whether they are what you look for.
 
B

Bob

Hi Themis,

Recent discoveries by the team at Project Hindsight are that the ancients treated every dignity with equal strength. They are currently looking into where the using of them crossed over from Dorotheus & Valens equal dignity to the score type system listed by Ptolemy. Translation errors are a likely cause, where they may have been used for Horary or Event charts but somehow found their way into Natal by mistake. Unfortunately, the popularity of William Lilly done much to reinforce their use, even though Lilly was not very good at all at natal work.

Good wishes

Bob
 

Pluto9th

Well-known member
Hi Lissa,
Thanks for your insights into retrograde jupiter and it's placement. I still don't know what to think about retrogrades in a natal chart as opposed to a horary chart.. sorry this is so short. It's getting late.
Pluto9th
 
I have Jupiter R in Leo the 11th house, I am not a big socializer only on Astrology Forums. Maybe this just represents the inward expression of this planet. I have heard with Retrograde planets you are still learning to master these energies inwardly, before you can confidently express them outwardly. Strangely enough since this Mercury R we are having I have been a lot more inward thinking than I usually am. I have been reading my Astrology books, and wanting to be alone as I internalise all the information. I haven't noticed myself being like this during other Retrogrades, possibly because Mercury has been going through Pisces this time, I have a dominant Pisces chart and Mercury is my Chart ruler. Maybe this explains it, but I have definately been different during this mercury R.

I imagine a Retrograde Jupiter works in a similar way maybe internalising the Jupiter qualities of hope, faith, optimism, internalising what you beleive in, maybe lots of internal self growth and understanding, and once you have fully internalised all these qualites into your self, in your case with the Jupiter R in the 1st house you will outwardly in later years project all the internal wisdom and understanding and all that you have learned, and other people will pick up on the faith you have in your self and the optimism you project. In my case with Jupiter R in the 11th, I may be more expansive in groups, and learn a lot through groups which help my self (Leo) expansion. A bit like my interaction on here, where I learn with and interact with other people from all over the world, and I learn how truly alike we all are and we all have fears, and worries and problems in our life no matter who we are or where we come from, so I have experienced a lot of growth and learning from people on this site. :) I personally wouldn't class Jupiter R as weak, it is very strong in internal expression. You are learning to understand your beliefs from deep within to have an inner optimism inside, and broadan your self knowledge, and once you have fully internalised the meaning of what this planet is teaching you, you will be ready to truly express this planet outward as a fully internalised part of yourself.

P.S Just theories, to work with. You know your own life and how your Jupiter is expressing itself. ;)
 
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Slap me if I say internalised once more. :D

Also with Pluto in the 9th squaring Jupiter, maybe there is a need for a powerful transformation in your beliefs.

Qouting Lyn Birkbeck - At the bottom of all this lies your desire to have a set of beliefs that accomodates your deepest drives and fears. So it is very likely in some time in your life, you will come into collision with whatever moral or religious influences prevail your life. Sooner or later you embody, and have to overcome some religious or cultural taboo - possibly concering sex. This may represent all the inward work which is needed on your self beliefs. Travel and higher education are activities which can change your life. So if transformation is what you after, then get thee to a college or an airport. :)
 
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Pluto9th

Well-known member
Hi Shining Ray,
Thank you replying!
The idea that the retrograde planets help people to recognize and internalize the planet qualities in a natal chart makes quite a lot of sense to me.
As for the Pluto square Jupiter, some of that may have already happened. I have an M.A. in philosophy, which certainly helped to define my beliefs in rather stark contrast to the right wing, anti- intellectual background my parents represent.
I think that the powerful transformation you are talking about may be happening at this time. Since late Jan 2007, I have been increasingly drawn to astrology, which is a 9th house matter. (Although I should mention that my Pluto is actually in the !0th house, with maybe an orb of influence in the 9th? I'm still new at this.) So maybe it has some to do with a career?
Thanks again for the thought provoking reply.
Jen
 
Your welcome Jen, :)

Thanks for sharing your experience of your Pluto/Jupiter aspect, I was wondering how this aspect was playing out in your life. I assumed your Pluto was in the 9th, Pluto in the 10th as you say has to do with career. So a transformation in your personal life or public position.
 

Pluto9th

Well-known member
Hi Shining Ray,
Yes, I was very new to astrology, was in a hurry to choose a name, and hadn't really learned about Pluto's placement.. I had another chart back then that seemed to show Pluto was in the 9th house. I have learned otherwise since then...
However, if Pluto is the 1st degree of Virgo, doesn't it have an orb of influence in the 9th? Thanks ahead of time.
Jen
 
I think I have read something by Liz Greene which says if you have a planet at the very beginning of a house but it is also very close to the cusp, you can interpret the influence of the two houses combined. But I am not completely sure so I don't want to mislead you. I would personally interpret it in the house it is placed in, but use your judgement. You use the Equal house system and I have been learning mostly with the Placidus house system, my son's Mars changes placements when I have looked at his chart in equal house and Placidus. In equal his Mars is in the 8th in Placidus his Mars is in the 9th. I personally interpret his Mars as in the 9th house but this is because of my choice of house system.
 

flea

Well-known member
Hi Pluto9,

I have JupR in 1st in Gem very close to my ascendant. Sun sign is sag and jup has a wide square (9deg orb) to pluto in virgo in 4th near cusp of 5th. So there are some similar energies here.

I associate my Jupiter with my inner life, such as thoughts and ideas that I assimilate internally. I dont necessarily have to express them immediately which I link to R motion. Meaning of Life, myth, religion etc etc are all imporant subject areas for me, and I have a great affinity with them. There is a strong internal belief within me that has helped my to get out of certain situations. I dont fear waiting, I have perseverence, and have a strong belief in the process of life, which expresses as basic optimism which others acknowledge. I only lost my optimism briefly about a couple of years and I did everything I could to get it back.

Love & Light
Flea
 

Themis

Well-known member
Bob said:
Recent discoveries by the team at Project Hindsight are that the ancients treated every dignity with equal strength. They are currently looking into where the using of them crossed over from Dorotheus & Valens equal dignity to the score type system listed by Ptolemy. Translation errors are a likely cause, where they may have been used for Horary or Event charts but somehow found their way into Natal by mistake. Unfortunately, the popularity of William Lilly done much to reinforce their use, even though Lilly was not very good at all at natal work.

thank you Bob for your explanation. i find what you said most amusing. i'am most interested by the conclusion of this research. could you offer some link of relevant articles or discussions please? i'm just wondering about the "ancient" that you said, how ancient they are? Dorothus, Ptolemy are question of about 1,000 years. it means that astrologers have been weighting the strength since at least 1,000 years in natal. i went into astrology from purely pschological angle from which planetary debilities are seldom a question more than "retrogradation". then i tried in some natal charts with this score system and did not find it completely nul. i think there are others who do natal this way as well. in addition, Lilly said that probably in other cultures astrological debility/dignity was also considered. so i wonder why not western astrology?
 
B

Bob

Hi Themis & all,

could you offer some link of relevant articles or discussions please?

Unfortunately Themis, their work is only available by subscription or direct sale through their website. They do this in order to keep costs as low as possible for those who want to learn about astrology’s Hellenistic roots. You will not find it plastered around the internet because it really is specialist material for those who want to know astrology’s newest discoveries, and it is most definitely not for the faint hearted. The work of Project Hindsight is to re-examine, re-translate and cross reference all the ancient translations they can get their hands on. One of the things that makes their work so good is, earlier translations were often done by people who were not practicing astrologers, or sometimes with no knowledge of astrology at all. All the texts they are translating now are mostly done by very competent translators/astrologers such as Robert Schmidt and Robert Hand for Greek texts and Robert Zoller for the Latin texts. There are some other very competent astrologers involved in the team but these are the main ones.

http://www.projecthindsight.com/index.html

http://www.astrology-x-files.com/

i'm just wondering about the "ancient" that you said, how ancient they are? Dorothus, Ptolemy are question of about 1,000 years.

As ancient is a very loose term, it is good that you brought up this question for clarification. What PH term as ancient they call Hellenistic, this is generally the period from about 200BC, up to around 500AD. Your mention of about a thousand years is a good average. I should make it clear that there is no strict rule for the time periods of the works PH are working on, suffice to say, Ptolemy’s Tetrabiblos is the main work that introduced astrology to the west, and pretty much all our astrology is loosely based on this one compendium of books. Ptolemy was a fine recorder of facts as he saw them, and a very clever, very intelligent man. However, when he came to record methods laid out during his lifetime he found some of them very puzzling and consequently he omitted them from his works; this had the effect of creating large gaps within certain methods listed by Ptolemy. It is nice to know he was human too, and when he delved deeply into the art of astrology his head must have spun in a way ours do today. It would be unfair to hold his omissions against him, he was a staunch Greek and in their world things had to add up logically for him to consider them worth recording.

it means that astrologers have been weighting the strength since at least 1,000 years in natal.

I don’t know that competent ‘natal’ astrologers would have given much credence between say the domicile ruler, and the triplicity or exaltation ruler except in order to work out a chart ruler by numbers. To give a practical theory by example, how can one define the working difference between a planet in its own decan and a planet in its own boundary (term)? – A planet is either dignified, or it isn’t, this would seem to make more sense. Especially in the light of recent discoveries by the PH team, these show the bounds ruler to be equal in strength (if not stronger in some cases) to the domicile ruler.

i went into astrology from purely pschological angle from which planetary debilities are seldom a question more than "retrogradation".

I too, entered through the Jeff Mayo school which is purely psychological. With planetary dignities in general, I believe laziness is responsible for the ignoring the many varied dignities that exist today. These are far more broad ranging than the five known as modern day astrology ‘essential dignities’. For example, the lunar phase, a planets proper face (not decan), planetary sect, zodiacal gender relationship (Leo to Capricorn = Masculine, Cancer to Aquarius = Female), masculinity/femininity, contra-antiscia and antiscia, planetary joys in the houses and the wind that runs with a planet (another triplicity dignity) are but a few more. In Hellenistic astrology the ruler of the sect light was given tremendous weight (almost like a chart ruler), today one rarely hears of it. When all the dignities are understood, the full understanding of how a planet works becomes obvious. [1]

This is a brief summary from the Project Hindsight translation of the Tetrabiblos book 1, entitled Appendix 1 Ptolemy’s Hypothesis of the Planets, book 2.

Here Ptolemy is describing the conditions of the planets as having a ‘soul’ and any planet in its own place or the place of another has the conditions (strength) of the soul (dignity) of that place. Is it possible to say 1 soul is stronger than another, in any context? I think most people would agree that a soul is the very essence of any living thing, and being as a soul is not divisible (a soul cannot be hot/cold, strong/weak, fat/thin, fast/slow, these are all material manifestations or measurements), there is a certain equality about their very essence, a soul just is.

In the footnote on page 51 concerning the above Robert Schmidt says:

“This tells us in no uncertain terms that ‘essential dignities’ are not truly essential at all according to Ptolemy, because the true essence of the planets is etheric and therefore unchanging (all equal).” (brackets mine)

then i tried in some natal charts with this score system and did not find it completely nul.

I would be interested to see you demonstrate this. The dignity system was about assigning strength to a planet, usually to find the chart ruler, or significator of a certain degree. Now there is another greatly misunderstood area. I would be interested to hear anyone who reads this define what a ‘chart ruler’ actually is. I don’t want to hear what planet becomes a chart ruler. For example, the ruler of the ascendant becomes the chart ruler. What I would be interested to hear is the definition of what a chart rulers operation is, what does it do or show?

i think there are others who do natal this way as well.

I am sure there are, but I am equally sure they make many mistakes in their astrological judgement.

in addition, Lilly said that probably in other cultures astrological debility/dignity was also considered.

At the risk of starting a mass debate (careful how you read that) I really think Lilly is the last person I would quote as a personification of a reputable, good quality, natal astrologer. With all due respect to the man, he made a fine living from Horary astrology, not natal astrology. Yes he did do natal work, but if you are intimately familiar with his three books of Christian Astrology, you must see how sloppy his work was. Another argument on this note; in my opinion Horary astrologers using these techniques make absolutely lousy natal astrologers because they all think in a blinkered numeric fashion, they cannot synthesize, they can only add up.

One final note:

Using Lilly’s table of dignities a planet in its own domicile gets 5 points and a planet in its exaltation gets 4 points. I would be interested to hear from anyone who could demonstrate how the exalted planet is operating with 20% less functionality than the domicile ruler. Continuing with Lilly’s table, a planet in its own term (boundary) only deserves 2 points and therefore it is working with 60% less functionality than the domicile ruler. In circumambulations (the original method of directing) the term (boundary) ruler is more important than the domicile ruler, as is the SAN lunar position. Where then is the sense in this retarded numbering dignity. Dignity and strength involve a great deal more than the ‘5 essential dignities’, maybe horary astrologers had trouble counting any higher than 5 in those times; and maybe in these times too. As a point of note; exaltation degrees have been around longer than domicile rulership which can only mean that they must be the original signification of dignity.

You may have gathered that I am not a fan of horary astrology, or especially, horary astrologers. It is not because I think horary astrology is invalid, it is because I think that… 1) almost all supposed horary questions can be answered from the appropriate natal chart, given the correct mental equipment and the appropriate time for investigation; 2) horary astrologers either ‘cannot’ or will not spend enough time analysing and synthesizing a nativity; 3) horary astrologers are concerned with answering a question in as shorter time as is possible because the sooner they can be rid of one client, the quicker they can make another buck from some other mug. Horary astrologers per se make the whole science/art of astrology look cheap and superficial by crossing their palm with silver in order to hear your future. I wish they would stick to fairgrounds or some other appropriate environment conducive to their selfish, materialistic, ego stroking, natally inept demeanours.

Hopefully, this goes some way to explaining that ‘essential dignity’ is a misnomer which has been completely misunderstood from the text of Ptolemy. This is but one of the reasons not to believe anything astrologically on face value until one has cross-referenced it many times, and checked the final result with experience. I could quote many of Ptolemy’s correct procedures, of which certain (very popular) house systems have fatal flaws in them would be shown as not workable. His own dignity system seems to have originated out of thin air – he used the Egyptian terms. His own ‘equal house’ system seems to be mistaken from a derived house system – he used whole sign houses. The list is endless, but it does indicate a great many mistakes are being used by modern astrology.


Good wishes


Bob
 

IntoAstro

Well-known member
Bob said:
I don’t know that competent ‘natal’ astrologers would have given much credence between say the domicile ruler, and the triplicity or exaltation ruler except in order to work out a chart ruler by numbers. To give a practical theory by example, how can one define the working difference between a planet in its own decan and a planet in its own boundary (term)? – A planet is either dignified, or it isn’t, this would seem to make more sense. Especially in the light of recent discoveries by the PH team, these show the bounds ruler to be equal in strength (if not stronger in some cases) to the domicile ruler.
Hi Bob,

I greatly admire the work that Robert Schmidt and his team are doing and have found much of it useful in my practice, so many things clarified that I couldn't make sense of before. However, I still have not warmed to the bounds and so hesitate to fulling integrate them when I do consultations, perhaps because there are different systems and no one knows where they originated.

I was wondering recently if it is possible to have planets in a sort of mutual reception with the bounds (i.e. Jupiter in the bounds of Mercury, Mercury in the bounds of Jupiter) - what would you think about this?

Bob said:
I would be interested to hear anyone who reads this define what a ‘chart ruler’ actually is. I don’t want to hear what planet becomes a chart ruler. For example, the ruler of the ascendant becomes the chart ruler. What I would be interested to hear is the definition of what a chart rulers operation is, what does it do or show?

How would you define this? Would it be the planet that has the greatest ability to lead the native to the destiny for which one has incarnated?


 
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