hindsight is 20/20 - view on Gacy's chart

sandstone

Banned
i am putting this outside the box of trad only comments.. john wayne gacy's chart has been used by some in the astro community to try to present modern astrology in a bad light.. that is an interesting approach which appears to show a built in bias towards a particular style of astrology not to mention that the comparison offered on this site that i have read more then a few times is seriously flawed...

hindsight is 20/20... it is interesting how one can go back and look at a chart and see all the reasons why something is such and such a way or another astrologically.. astrology is supposed to be about predicting the future as much as everything else it has been used for.. predicting the future is much more tricky then looking back at the past.. studying the past is very instructive to seeing what might work astrologically and i recommend it..

here is the wikipedia page on gacy. reading it while looking at his chart is informative.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne_Gacy
here is his chart with more bio related info
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Gacy,_John_Wayne

when you read his early upbringing it is quite disturbing and fits with how his life later turned out...

the first part of his chart that stands out to me is the new moon opposite neptune.. the other pattern that quickly jumps off the chart is the mercury squaring onto the ascendant axis and being involved with the cluster of planets in the descendant area of his chart.. upon a closer look one notes a few midpoints like mars/saturn = mercury, mars/uranus = descendant, moon/pluto=descendant and challenging midpoint pictures like this.. an interesting feature of his chart is the absence of any planet in a cardinal sign.. his chart is largely mutable with some fixed to it suggesting he was a product of his circumstances more then a person able to force his life in a particular direction..

a technique anyone can try out which can be used to help in rectification as well is the use of directing any planet on a 1 degree= 1 year basis.. this is essentially solar arc direction applied to a chart to get more understanding of the directions in effect for a person in a particular year of there life.. you can do it forward - the most common way and called direct, or reverse - less common and called converse.. if you do this on gacys chart with the data on his personal bio you can see some of the challenging directions matching up with some of his early home life experiences as well..

gacys killing spree starts on his saturn return with saturn transiting the descendant area of his chart, while neptune is transiting his ascendant.. he also married for a 2nd time in 1972.. 2 marriages for gemini on the descendant pans out with gacy.. his murdering continues until 1978 where t saturn finds itself squaring onto his asc/desc axis and close to his midheaven by the end of the year..

i suppose i am demonstrating how one can look back on a persons life and consider the different techniques you are using astrologically to understand both the person and the astrology better.. it is an exhaustive task thinking of sharing everything i can look at by writing it down, but it is a small part of what goes into doing astro research using different techniques such as transits or solar arc directions to a well known persons chart such as gacy.. i think the part about syncing up the different techniques one uses in astrology to real people who have lived notoriously or otherwise is helpful for better understanding astrology..

the sect read on gacys chart wouldn't consider mars on an angle in a nocturnal chart such a bad thing.. perhaps the fact it squares onto it's own ruler would change the dynamic some, but just on the basis of sect mars isn't badly placed... as roy pointed out on the other thread is the conflict with the position of mercury and jupiter both being in detriment in each others signs.. how this would get factored into the astrological cause of his horrific actions is not completely clear to me... i suppose the beauty of trad astro is its connection to a more fatalistic viewpoint, something that i think modern astro has worked hard to displace... where ever one finds themselves with regard to a particular attachment to either trad or mod astrology, to me is seems beside the point to understanding astrology better.. hey, i get to be philosophical about this on a neutral forum where i am not having to address something in a specific boxed in manner...
 
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sandstone

Banned
Re: hindsight is 20/20

hi caprising,

i like what you've commented on with gacys chart... the 135 and 45 from venus to neptune and moon are a close trio of planets connected with one another.. mars is also connected via the 22.30 aspect but this is less easy to see unless you work with a 45 degree dial. there are a few midpoints that connect closely with these planets as well.. saturn/pluto midpoint, and sun/moon midpoint..

here is some of the data
saturn/pluto midpoint - 28 gemini 53
sun/moon midpoint - 27 pisces 24

venus at 13 aquarius 36 is 135 to the sa/pl midpoint and slightly less then 44 from the sun/moon midpoint...neptune is very close to exactly square the sa/pl midpoint.. gacy has neptune and venus at his sun/moon midpoint via these hard aspects which are an important consideration to any chart..

what is less obvious mars at 5 gemini 50, or about 23 degrees 3 minutes away from the saturn/pluto midpoint which in turn connect to the venus, neptune and moon by 16th harmonic type aspects..

to me the saturn/pluto midpoint is one of possible hardship or cruelty. the fact that all of these points in gacys chart activate this midpoint suggest gacys life was not an easy one.. if you read the wiki bio on his early life this is very clear to see..

if you want to look at specific events in his life we can do that too thru some different predictive tools that i like working with...

i suppose my post makes clear i find midpoint data very useful to consider..
 

TransformingSelf

Well-known member
Re: hindsight is 20/20

Hello Sandstone,

You have unraveled the chart of John Wayne Gacy in your own interpretation because that is exactly what the biography and chart are showing, that he was an "out-of-box" and unconventional character.
I have not looked at his natal chart with the exact numerical midpoints as you have, but am estimating by eye. I see the most powerful indicator of the reasons for his actions from the smallest midpoint between his sun and moon in Pisces as emotions influencing his personality in every aspect of his life and those emotions in Pisces being unrestrained where the distinction between reality and imagination is blurred. The fact that both Sun and Moon are in the fourth house matches with his obsession with his father as his ruthless actions are an imitation of his father's abuse of himself. If one were to take the midpoint between the ascendant and descendant axes in the lower hemisphere of his chart, that person would find it to be exactly where Mercury lies and that was his main problem. He had difficulties in communicating the aggression he experienced as a child through the socially acceptable means of words, so he grew up relying on physical attacks to release his anger and pain. To answer your question of how Mercury factors into the astrological cause of his actions, its being in Pisces is telling of how his emotions were so rampant and inconsistent that he was unable to clearly express them. Compounded to this Mercury in detriment is Jupiter in detriment in Gemini, which I see as indicative of the seizures he had because of the continual activity in his brain to escape from his feelings of shame inflicted by the past and his own self-abuse to live up to the expectations of others that he created in his own mind, to the point where he could not control himself. The midpoint between Jupiter and Mars is also powerful because it translates into an abundance of physical aggression (violent seizures and violence towards others), inflicted on self and others in the seventh house.
It's like his life was constantly characterized by struggle, the struggles in communication with his Mercury in detriment and conflicting feelings about his father and past, the struggles between being cautious and impulsive in relationships as represented by Saturn and Uranus so close together in his seventh house of relationships, and the struggles between finding respect for his own self as separate from the ashamed self attached to the abusive father of his past as represented by Pluto guiding him towards self-healing in the ninth house of the future and the Sun and Moon pushing him back to self-pain in the fourth house of the past.
Your approach to understanding the astrology of Gacy's life is an approach that leads you to understanding the core of astrology and its penetration into the reasons for motivation and behavior.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Re: hindsight is 20/20

Excellent observations/delineations by all of these posters! Shows that Modernist delineation can work and work quite well, just as Traditionalist delineation can work and quite well, IF done by those (like these posters) who really know what they are doing!!
 

sandstone

Banned
Re: hindsight is 20/20

thanks everyone for the input and kind words!

t-self -- focusing on the mercury is a good way to go into this chart due the fact the chart is very much a western hemisphere emphasis - a chart focused on relationship - and mercury has great bearing on gemini descendant, mars, jupiter.. mercury is squaring onto the asc/desc axis as you and i both point out.. it is also 1 of 3 planets rising on the eastern side of the chart.. the cutting planet- venus (135 to neptune) - are the other 2 and suggest someone reaching out for friendship/love but experiencing disappointment and disillusionment instead.. that these 2 planets are so closely associated with his sun/moon combo and fall at the saturn/pluto midpoint says a lot about his early home life and what i feel are the building blocks for his actions later in life. t-self, the other part that you focused on - sun/moon with neptune opp is definitely an important consideration to t his chart.. oppositions imply relationship and this close opposition between moon/neptune really describes the shadowy nature of his life, early family circumstances and inability to connect with people on a meaningful and rewarding level in an intimate context..

caprising - great question regarding how does one decide which midpoints are more relevant to a chart.. this is something that i often find myself questioning too.. my focus is more based on a particular set of aspects that i associate with events coming out on a tangible level in peoples lives.. i focus on the even series aspects - 2, 4, 8, 16 , or opposition, square, semisquare/sesquisquare and the 22.30 aspect which is 1/2 of 45 or what i called 16th harmonic..

going off this i conclude that the venus/neptune 135 ties directly into 2 of the 3 most critical points to a chart that one has to consider - sun, moon and ascendant axis.. from this position i feel that the saturn/pluto midpoint is important.. however it is interesting if you have the software to look at these sort of things - michael munkasey developed a system for evaluating the importance of midpoints gotten thru a computer analysis of them that is built into this solar fire astro program i have -7.3.1 version - and it also helps to isolate the top 35 of these on any chart... it will change depending on how many planets or points you include as selected chart points in your preferences.. it is called 'midpoint weighing analysis' or MWA in the program.. it is something you can look at probably on the other main astro software programs available for anyone seriously wanting to know more about astrology...

according to the MWA the midpoints considered most important to gacys chart, keeping in mind i have included chiron along with the planets out to pluto and vertex which is like an alternative type of 7th house cusp suggestive of connections to others - i get these 10 at the top of the list.
moon/mercury,
nodes/vertex
mercury/uranus
moon/neptune
venus/jupiter
pluto/node
neptune/pluto
moon/uranus
saturn/pluto
chiron/midheaven

if you pull out chiron and vertex it is much the same except you are down to the top 8.. another interesting observation is this - the MWA will also suggest which planet from the chart is considered the most active or in focus planet and it happens to be mercury no matter whether you include chiron and vertex or not.. another very interesting surprise is how if one includes the new planet - ceres - into the mix on gacys chart - ceres was promoted to planet status by the astronomers while pluto was demoted -
ceres shoots to the very top above mercury as an important consideration to his chart... ceres happens to be at 0 pisces 18 - in an exact conjunction to natal mercury.. what i find interesting here is how the transit of neptune and chiron are going over this same area while we are looking more closely at gacys chart... whether we come away from this study with a more compassionate understanding of gacy while learning more about the astrology - that would be a positive result...

caprising - hopefully this gives you a bit of an idea on how to evaluate midpoints a little bit! i am mostly looking for midpoints that are emphasized in the chart already, as opposed to midpoints that don't include planets or important chart points at there midpoint... i use hard aspects - the even series numbered aspects to help me figure this out.. i consider certain midpoints like sun/moon or ascendant/midheaven to have greater relevance if there is a planet at either of these midpoints as i see these planets/points as being more central to any chart... cheers james
 

sandstone

Banned
Re: hindsight is 20/20

hi caprising - thanks for your comments here!

i wanted to mention that anyone who wants to posts comments on gacys chart in traditional, modern, or whatever style they are using - feel free to do so.. it would be interesting to read different perspectives using his chart as a point of departure..

caprising, here is another way of seeing mercury as having greater bearing on the chart.. mercury is in the 10th house of the gemini planets and the 10th house is in a commanding position to the planets in the 1st.. this is a way of playing around with the way one can think of houses, which really addresses an issue that is discussed in various astrological areas with ideas like sinister, verses dexter or oriental verses occidental phase relationships and astro lingo like this..

regarding the use of the semisextile or the quincunx/inconjunct - i think these are useful aspects to consider as well.. these are like 6/8 or 2/12 type aspects in that they bring together planets usually in these types of relationships with one another by sign.. i believe ptolemy considered these aspects as well, although they aren't mentioned in most lists of ptolemaic aspects .. in ptolemys time aspects seem to be based off asign that is semisextile of inconjunct to another sign regardless of where the planet falls by degree in the sign.. a few examples in gacys chart would be saturn to mars or jupiter - taurus/gemini being semisextile by sign one another and saturn falling in mars and jupiters 12th house.. or vice versa - mars and jupiter falling in saturns 2nd house.. one prominent inconjunct to gacys chart would be virgo to aquarius where we see his neptune and venus, although they are tied by the modern aspect 135, they would be considered inconjunct in ptolemys time as i understand it.. saturn would be inconjunct his ascendant as well..

i am not sure the rules or approach to defining sect when the luminary which defines the nocturnal sect - moon, is so close to the sun... i am looking into this at the moment.. if moon is sect ruler and not replaced by venus or mars, the moon gets no help from mars of venus as i understand it in this chart.. mars while on an angle which would strengthen it, in in the moons 4th house by square.. venus is in the moons 12th house via semisextile.. this is according to the idea an aspect is based on a sign relationship... if i am correct on this it implies the moon gets no assistance from the other 2 nocturnal planets in his nocturnal chart.. if on the other hand due to the suns rays overshadowing the moon the sect ruler is replaced by mars or venus, this would be more favourable as they are in a 9/5 or trine relationship to one another by sign..

sect is an interesting part of trad astrology that i continue to work towards fully understanding..

one other short comment - gacys part of fortune is being opposed by saturn which perhaps i can comment on later..
 
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TransformingSelf

Well-known member
Re: hindsight is 20/20

You are all brilliant in your analyses, and I just love the unconditional astrological welcoming in this thread! I find that we share understanding of Gacy's astrology in different ways. Sandstone, you and Caprising bring up exactly what was on my mind about which midpoints to consider. That is part of the trouble that I had when I replied yesterday because I wanted to include every midpoint that was there, but had to resign to the main ones that struck my eye and this selective decision-making is so similar to you and Caprising selecting the most prominent ones in your computer analyses.
As I look again at Gacy's chart, something else draws my attention and relates to your discussion on midpoints. I see Gacy as a midpoint himself, a man wobbling between extremes and dichotomies. He has these dichotomies in a substantial portion of his chart- the wavering between the Sun and Moon or his outward persona and inward emotion, between Venus and Mercury or feeling love and distancing himself with rationality, between Saturn and Uranus or stability and volatility where when he thought he had what he wanted, especially in the sense of relationships, he lost it, and Saturn and Uranus as prestige and degradation as in society's views of his jobs as successful contractor and aimless clown, between Mars and Jupiter or obsession and indifference. You have reached the heart of Gacy with your analysis because he did have disappointment and disillusionment which can also be seen from Neptune, the apex of several equilateral triangles, connecting to the clusters, that you noted, of his other planets. It's this Neptune that conditions the expressions of the other planets through confusion, wavering, and escapism. The positions of the natal planets and aspects signify that he tried to escape from his pain by turning to relationships, but when the relationships broke apart, the reality forced him to turn back to himself. You are exactly right in pointing to the "shadowy" nature of his life as represented by his profession, a clown, a person with a mask who hides his emotions beneath a rigid exterior. Now, the idea of a clown relates to your question about the Sun and Moon in close proximity, and they reveal a lapse of boundaries where perceived self becomes actual self as readily as actual self becomes perceived self. Gacy recognized this lapse when he confronted boundaries in the bars of his prison cell before his death. You know exactly what is going on as in your words, "Hindsight is 20/20"- experience unfolds self-realization.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Re: hindsight is 20/20

Indeed Neptune is a highly influential element of the Gacy chart, and the chart is dominated by the mutable modality, so the wavering mentioned by TransformingSelf seems a constitutional factor in Gacy's situation. Neptune and Moon are atmakaraka planets (a Jaimini concept similar to our concept of chart rulers), but Moon is combust, so the defacto atmakaraka here is Neptune-largely sets the "quality" of the chart. So, hidden, occult and "other-worldly" and "strange" motivations are indicated by this Neptune strength in this chart; and Neptune itself is in a mutable sign.
Jupiter is conjunct Lilith (which I accept as a valid astrological factor and which I regard as a "mini-SN") This is a strong applying conjunction, made even more influential by being angular (and here again, in a mutable sign); Lilith conjunct Jupiter can give a ravenous, insatiable sexual appetite-and note that this is in Gacy's 7th house of relationships with others-and certainly we can see this manifesting in Gacy's life (eg, numerous rapes, first jail term for sodomy, etc)
His Sun is blocked by being in a pitted degree; thus the higher potential Light-enlightening reason, higher consciousness-which the Sun can represent, was denied Gacy due to his Sun being largely neutralized by positing this pitted degree of Pisces.

(more later)
 
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sandstone

Banned
Re: hindsight is 20/20

transforming self - you are too kind!

dr farr - thanks for your comments here which i find interesting to consider..

i suppose if we are going to look at lilith we may as well include eris as well.. eris is at 4 aries 48, while mars/pluto midpoint is at 4 cancer 45.. actually chiron/mercury midpoint is on the same axis as mars/pluto and chiron happens to be in a 5 degree orb conjunction to pluto as well.. chiron is said to reveal a wound that one works to heal and in the sign of leo it connects to ones childhood..

whether one wants to consider mars or pluto as the ruler of scorpio, scorp is the 12th house cusp in gacys chart.. part of fortune lands here as well and is very poorly placed with mars as ruler.. perhaps the reason he is so notorious has to do with mars in a cardinal house occidental and accidentally debilitated by house as well..

the way i understand the part of fortune to work is that one looks at it's relationship to the ascendant lord - inconjunct in gacys case(jupiter), and the lights- more favourable, but most important the lord of the pof itself - mars to which it is also inconjunct.. then one can set up houses with pof as the first... saturn then is in the 7th to pof which is considered quite bad.. one could look at the part of spirit as well which is said to be quite significant in hellenistic astrology.. it lands at 4 sag 12 close to exact opposite natal mars in gacys chart..

i was thinking of the mars/pluto midpoint to gacys chart last night when looking at a question on the read my chart thread about possible sexual abuse.. i have seen aspects between these 2 planets representing more challenges on the sexual plane.. noticing eris exact square to this midpoint is interesting for a few reasons.. eris has a pretty bad rap from everything on the net i have read about it.. eris was the planetoid that bumped pluto off it's planetary status perch as well...

the distance from mars to pluto in gacys chart is 57 degrees 48 minutes.. i haven't done it yet, but this would be like making up an arabic part for mars/pluto... one takes the distance and applies it to different points, usually the ascendant to see where it arrives and how it creates some triangles around the chart.. the distance from moon to uranus is 58 degree 16 minutes which is very similar.. of course both mars and uranus in these 2 pictures happen to be where the descendant axis midpoint to as well.. that is mars/uranus = descendant.. he didn't live to his 57 or 58th year to see the direction of his chart 1 degree=1 year to this point, but i wonder (since 58 years is essentially 2 cycles of saturn) if one the first cycle the 1/2 point of these 2 pictures was the activation point?

lots of speculation to astrology.. as i said in the title, one can look back and apply the data to specific dates in a persons life to see if it has any relevance or not..

additional note - sun to saturn distance is 58 degree 6 minutes very similar to mars/pluto distance..
 
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sandstone

Banned
arabic/greek parts

i just wanted to point out that these parts are based off doing something quite similar to what i was looking at in my previous post.. i would like to comment on this a wee bit more..

the reason the part of fortune and the part of spirit are considered primary parts in hellenistic and the arabic approach to astrology has to do with taking the distance in zodiac degrees/minutes from the 2 lights - sun/moon and applying this distance to the ascendant.. essentially the 3 most central considerations to a chart are now tied together in the form of a part or point on the ecliptic that is and isn't an abstraction from what is in the chart already.. the only difference is in whether this distance is extended back or forward off the ascendant and it is based on whether the chart is a day or night chart..

using gacys chart as the ongoing example - part of fortune at 28 scorpio 33 one can quickly see that the amount of seperation from pof to ascendant is exactly the same as it is between the sun and moon in gacys chart - 2 degrees 50 minutes.. the same applies to the part of spirit which projects forward 2/50 to give 4 sag 12 as part of spirit..

now perhaps there is some catchy old phrase to describe the relationship between mars/pluto, although the astrologers of old were not looking at mars/pluto distance of separation, but i am sure they would have been looking at some part that involved the sun and saturn and turning it into an arabic or greek part! i am going to guess without looking it is probably called the part of the father as these 2 planets are typically associated with the father.. now whether one wants to suppose that the fact the part of father, or whatever this part is called, happens to coincide with the same modern part gotten with mars/pluto and extrapolate that gacys father was a brutal sob, it would be easy to do based off the fact both sun/saturn and mars/pluto distance phase is about exactly the same.. i do associate mars/pluto with intense force and potential brutality..

something to ponder for the trad and contemporary crowd..
 

sandstone

Banned
Re: hindsight is 20/20

solar arc sun at 25 pisces 59 directed to the mars/pluto midpoint at 4 cancer 45 at a rate of 1 degree = 1 year brings gacy to year nine... that is sa sun at 4 aries 59 which directly squares the mars/pluto midpoint.. in midpoint use any planet hard aspecting the midpoint is considered 'in' the midpoint...

At the age of nine, Gacy was molested by a family friend,[6] a contractor who would take Gacy for rides in his truck, then fondle him. Gacy never told his father about these incidents as he was afraid he would bear the blame in his father's eyes.
 

TransformingSelf

Well-known member
Re: hindsight is 20/20

Dr. Farr, thank you for your brilliant explanation, with words that come from the perspective of Vedic astrology. It is reminiscent of the origin of language and how different words represent the same ideas that we observe and experience in life. Your important observations from the Vedic method confirm the astrological presences in his life. I can definitely see how Neptune becomes a "de-facto" ruler as you point out and the Jupiter conjunct Lilith aspect as extreme indulgence in sexual affairs. Notice the unity through different analysis techniques!
Sandstone, we have you to thank for creating this riveting study of Gacy. When I first looked at Gacy's chart, the position of Mars next to Jupiter in the 7th house suggested abundance in aggression and violence in relationships, including sexual aggression. The aspect that worsens this violence is Mars in opposition to the Ascendant which adds on to this overwhelming sexual aggression and violence as a lack of control in the self originating from inner competition about his worthiness. I can see him questioning himself: "Do I deserve to be in a relationship or not?" This inner competition is transferred into his outer relationships with his wives and victims, as he seeks to control them in an effort to control himself. This control is taken to the extreme, especially when Neptune controls his chart and his Sun and Moon are in such close proximity as you've all observed, when boundaries are dissolved and anger and violence are allowed free reign. His sexual abuse and violence were also ensconced in him because of Pluto in Leo in his 8th house where infatuation with the taboos of combined sex and death is prevalent. That 8th house holds memories of the past, which were reawakened with his Saturn Return, an important time that you draw our attention to, Sandstone, when Saturn, representative of his father and the family friend you talk about, returned to haunt him as a controlling and abusive man, obsessed with dominating the material, as his father's occupation as a machinist and family friend's occupation as contractor, involve manipulation with hands, and Gacy re-lived his father and the family friend in his own occupation as a successful contractor, again manipulating with hands, with Saturn in his daily 6th house of Taurus/material realm, and abusive relationships with young men, never being able to reach settlement with his father's treatment of him and the pain and bitterness that he lived through his childhood.
 
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sandstone

Banned
if you put gacys chart in right ascension as opposed to zodiac positions, or what some call 'in mundo' the chart takes on a different look...

the sun and moon opposite to neptune move into a strongly defined t square with the mars and jupiter in the 7th.. this would help explain more of the fathers aggressive nature towards gacy as i understand it.. i don't know how to post a chart from astro.com of gacys chart in mundo and i am not even sure if astro.com offers this service, but if someone knows how and can post gacys chart in mundo it would be helpful for those interested to it..

also in mundo the venus comes into a more sharp opposition to pluto as well..
 

TransformingSelf

Well-known member
Astrology never ceases to amaze and teach a person all the different perspectives that can be. You've taught me another way of seeing a natal chart, Sandstone. I did not know anything about "right ascension," or "in mundo," but my knowledge of certain Romance languages tells me that the word "mundo" is Spanish for "world" and its cousin, the word, "monde," is French for "world." With knowledge of art, I can see "mundo" as matching the image of a "mound," round surface sticking out of the ground. Putting them both together, "in mundo," sounds like an astrological perspective of creating a natal chart from the fixed vantage point of standing on Earth. I looked now for the "in mundo" chart, but could not find it online. The sites explain that it can be purchased from computer programs like Kepler or Solar Fire.
But I feel that even without these programs, I can see how this chart might look like in my mind's eye, with Mars and Jupiter at a perpendicular angle to Neptune in Virgo directly opposite the Sun and Moon in Pisces and as you found, it definitely puts the attention on his father. The T square pronounces the Neptunian effects on Gacy's self-identification, so that he does not see himself in his own, but in his father's eyes. His father created the illusion and lodged it into him, that his life depended on him and treated him as he would property, Saturn in the 6th in Taurus represents his father as a traditional materialist or someone with the view of family as his property, to treat them as he pleased. He treated Gacy using threats and controlling his mind, Mars in Gemini, that he could take away Gacy's food, home, physical security, and life, to force his obedience to him. Gacy succumbed to this mind controlling behavior because he, like his father, later in life treated his victims the same way, made them believe that their lives depended on him, and he took their lives away when they contested him, to prove to himself he had some semblance of control and worthiness. Gacy strongly re-lives his father, repeating his dichotomy, aloof and distant in relationships, Saturn conjunct Uranus, at times, but verbally and physically abusive and aggressively forceful at others. Gacy never knew himself in his own right, with his father's and his own self-delusion, Mars and Jupiter with Neptune and with Sun and Moon in T square, that he was insignificant and unworthy as his father believed him to be.
 

TransformingSelf

Well-known member
Thank you for the link, James! The chart was almost what I envisioned it, except Mars and Jupiter were placed in Gemini more towards the right, exactly at a ninety degree angle to both Sun and Moon and Neptune in my mind. I couldn't see or open any PDF files on the link, which could just be computer stubbornness.
I also found an article by Kenneth Bowser about aspects "in mundo" viewed from the Earth's equator, and the examples he gives of Albert Einstein's and Robert Hand's charts "in mundo" are by using the "Geocentric, Fagan-Allen, and Campanus" options on astro.com. Here is his article- http://www.westernsiderealastrology.com/articles/aspects_in_mundo.pdf
I tried it for Gacy's chart and this is the link for it- http://www.astro.com/cgi/showgif.cg...gif&res=100&va=&cid=lmyfileZaQ9UC-u1226722163
 

sandstone

Banned
hi t-s ,

the chart has a link for a pdf file which you can open which gives a lot of data.. however it doesn't include 'in mundo' or right ascension positions as i was hoping... i can get this info on my astro program, but do not have a service to upload a chart from my computer...

on the other hand astro.com does provide harmonic charts - 10 to be specific beginning with 2 and going to 10.. one is not able to alter the harmonic chart choices... but if you look at the 8th harmonic, you get an idea of what i am looking at in the 16th harmonic where i was mentioning the connection between mars to the neptune/venus/moon cluster tied together very closely via 45/135/180 aspects... note the opposition in the 8th harmonic chart between mars on the one side with neptune/venus/moon on the other.. this is what i mentioned in my first post on gacy.. mars is a very active part to this planetary cluster..

you can also see this in the 4th harmonic, but it shows up as a t square with mars at the top and moon/neptune opp venus on the bottom.. note how close the aspects are between one another and this is extended out to the 4th harmonic..

if i can pull up a free 'in mundo' chart for gacys planets in right ascension, i will post it here.. i might have to do it an alternative way off my astro prog..


http://www.astro.com/cgi/showgif.cg...gif&res=100&va=&cid=o3zfileZmWz5L-u1326769195
 

TransformingSelf

Well-known member
Hello James,

Don't worry about downloading the "in mundo" positions. As long as you can see it, that is what is important. The strangeness with my learning style is that I literally have to figure out how any aspect works and especially, why it works, before I understand it and can pass on that understanding. What helps me is roughly drawing the planets in their aspect degrees, even if I never get to see them on a computer program.
I must have irrationally deduced yesterday, but from the Bowser article on "in mundo aspects," I thought that the Campanus option on astro.com was the same as the "in mundo" one because he gave the examples of Albert Einstein and Robert Hand in Campanus while describing the "in mundo" aspect in reference to them.
Thank you for the link with the harmonics! I was able to see the 8th harmonic chart that you mentioned, and I think it shows some aspects that were not as readily apparent from the natal Zodiac chart. I saw that opposition between Mars on one side and Neptune, Venus, and Moon on the other, that you were talking about, and Gacy's mother came to my mind. Venus and Moon aspects are representative of the mother because of the emotions of love and safety that they accentuate. It seems as if Gacy looked to his mother for the emotional love and safety that his father deprived him, and believed that her love was all he needed to make it through life. But as the 4th harmonic chart shows, with Mars in a T square to Moon and Neptune, opposite Venus, Gacy's mother let him down by keeping a more distant relationship because she, herself, was abused by his father and in need of love and emotional safety. The Neptune, Venus, and Moon trio imports that Gacy sought a relationship with his mother, almost like Freudian Oedipal complex, to shield her from the violence and wrath of his father, and so they both could receive the love they were lacking in their lives. The proximity of this planetary grouping looks as though Gacy, his mother, and siblings were on one side, supporting each other, against their father, Mars representation. But his father severed his mother's connection to her children by overwhelming control and force, so that she was consumed by his will and feared for her and her children's lives if she tried to defend them. Gacy may have lived under the illusion that his mother would save him from his father in childhood and later, kept the illusion of being saved in his adult relationships with his wives, as he looked for that same emotional love and nurturance from them. But he did not realize that his dependancy would not let the relationships continue, and his low self-esteem was what was holding him back. It looks like the cycle of deception (Neptune) with his mother continued to his own adult relationships, when he involved himself with women who he thought would save him, like his mother, but it turned out those women were only concerned about themselves and emotionally unavailable, as his mother was. Those 45, 135, and 180 aspects magnify the impact of Mars, his father's influence over his whole life, because he defined his life by what he saw, his father's willpower and domination over his mother and family. The Mars in opposition to Neptune, Venus, and Moon strongly speaks of his inability to define his life by emotion because of the fear that he might not ever have the love he needed, therefrom not being able to express that love back into his relationships.
 

sandstone

Banned
hi t-s

i have a learning style that is similar.. i need to see charts as opposed to reading descriptions of them.. the harmonic set of charts in that link help clarify some of my comments for example.. talking about mars position in gacys chart in relation to the feminine planets with neptune is not possible to see when looking at a 360 chart... and it is not possible to see using standard aspects either, like oppositions, squares and etc.. the only way you can see these connections are thru the use of a 90 or 45 degree wheel, a tool invented by astrologers to essentially look at 8th and 16th harmonic aspects, along with midpoints.. if one is interested in learning more about midpoints or even series aspects further out then the 4th harmonic which is the square essentially, then this is what they need to familiarize themselves with.

viewing a chart 'in mundo', or right ascension is also unorthodox and not very many astrologers are looking at these types of charts.. usually every chart is looked at in zodiac position, as opposed to right ascension.. you will see the astro differently, depending on what system you are using for looking at the data.. many astrologers, especially ones just starting out, generally don't look at this data.. maybe it is just as well, as there is much to consider when learning about astrology!

gacys relationship to his mom and his 2 wifes is peculiar.. his first wife accuses him of sodomy which he is convicted and spends time in jail on and his 2nd wife realizes early on that she can't continue with him.. obviously on one level he was charming enough to persuade them to be with him! he moved back in with his mom after getting out of jail and she helped to buy the house where he committed most of the murders too.. i am not sure what there relationship was, but she sounds as though she led a tough life married to a hard drinker who abused some or all of her kids and who died young.. perhaps people do things out of a sense of expediency, and or necessity that is hard to fully comprehend when looking back in retrospect.. one wonders just how much gacys mom knew of her son's activities..

in the older astrology books i have been reading, mercury - mars hard aspects like the square in gacys chart come in for some bad mojo with regard to the persons involvement with young people sexually speaking.. i suppose this stands to reason up to a point... mercury represents the young and mars is the planet connected to sexuality and aggression.. excluding uranus position for a moment, the fact this mercury/mars square sits so closely to the angles once again verifies for me the importance of planets and planets in aspect on the angles.. if i was to suggest one thing to pay attention to when looking at an astrology chart it would be this : pay close attention to planets on angles!!!

something about mercury as trickster rings true as well!

nice talking with ya t-s!
 

TransformingSelf

Well-known member
Hello James,

I have really enjoyed your discussion to the utmost and the in-depth study that you dedicate to astrology. I think you know Gacy more than he knew himself. He was subject to Neptunian delusions which disconnected him from the realities of his life and a realistic understanding of himself. If you think of your idea of hindsight's validity, you can see that Gacy, who was not as critical, ended up in self-demise. He lacked the wisdom and foresight that comes from hindsight, to help him move forward.
Yes, I see the depth that comes from the harmonic charts. It's like magnifying aspects, midpoints, and planetary links with a magnifying glass. These detailed charts make a difference in what they show. I'm wondering why a right ascension chart is so shunned by astrologers. When I first came to the forum, I had understood astrology as subjective in its signification. So much of interpreting is a result of personal perspective. The Greco-Romans interpreted constellations by their beliefs and values that set their thought patterns, but it leads one to wonder about different thought patterns. I think of different tribes in the traditional world and how they saw the constellations back then. Their worldviews are linked to nature and the cosmos, so they would see the constellations as the animals and plants they were familiar with and depended on for their survival. Astrology is in personal experience as people breathe their perceptions into it. That's the reason why the right ascension chart should be considered because it may just unearth explanations that have been overlooked in the Zodiac charts. A longitudinal pathway of the constellations would definitely show aspects from a different side, and planetary influences that are represented by their degrees of influence.
The harmonic charts stress Gacy's parents, by the Mars representative of his father, and Venus and Moon as his mother. The angles and midpoints point to these childhood influences as formative of his behavior in adult life. It is telling in a way that his fate of being raised in a destructive family bears some responsibility for his actions, responsibility that he evaded in his adult life by continuing his father's destructive and violent behavioral cycle. Mars in opposition to his Ascendant sets the stage for his life, intense battles with himself that erupted into his relationships. With Mars in a T square to the Moon and Neptune opposite Venus, there is overwhelming battle in the family, but the Venus looks to be isolated, the position of the mother figuring out how to best defend herself and her children, and a distance she forms from them to protect them from their father's rage. I can see how after his death, she would bridge that distance and feel free to show her love for them, and Gacy would seek her out for the nurturance that he missed in his childhood. I think that the strong influence of Neptune on Venus affects Gacy's mother's views of him, that though she would have felt his violence and cruelty towards others, Moon trine Ascendant, she would choose not to see it and remain deluded from reality as he was. Human behavior, like Gacy's and his family's is linked to the psychology of damage control to the ego and self. Benath it all was fear, that facing reality would prove powerlessness and a lack of control over their lives and selves. This pervasive fear fits in perfectly with the family's powerlessness and susceptibility to violence, abuse, and self-destruction.
I definitely also see the Mars and Mercury aspects as abuse, sexual, physical, and verbal, with young people, and traditional Greco-Roman societies laid the foundations for these interpretations in agreement with their beliefs. Mercury is duplicitous like the contrasting planets positioned so close to each other in the natal chart. They all scream out Gacy's two sides, the emotionally vulnerable and the emotionally stoic. Just as his chart shows, he had no boundaries as to his emotions and could not define what he felt, so he lives his life by what he saw, his father's treatment of him. Gacy admired his father's powerful persona, a persona that he found lacking in himself, which furthered his own low self-esteem.
You find angles, midpoints, and planetary positions important in astrology for a reason. They refer you to the deviations and changes in one's life that deeply affect the person, so he or she is never the same.
 
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