Relationships and Morality of Predicting Those In Natal As Well As Horary Astrology

poyi

Premium Member
You know what's even better -- I used to work in a teaching hospital and every year, summertime to be precise, the new crop of interns and residents would arrive. Contrary to what many believe, interns with plenty of book knowledge and no hands-on are suddenly thrust into the middle of emergencies and expected to handle it. They don't have anyone standing over them and watching .... :crying:

Needless to say, to this day I do not allow my family or friends to undergo any elective hospital procedures during June, July and August ....

That's why I said experienced nurses often prevent doctors killing patients....just few weeks ago, a resident refused to give sedation to patient for urgent CT so he delayed the CT the patient died few days later for delayed poorly treated ongoing seizure the one I once mentioned in the other thread. This doctor insulted one of our senior nurses, saying nurses known nothing when she was fighting for her patient to hav urgent CT brain done. He insulted her in front of everyone. I took over the patient at night we did all we could on night shifts just 4 nurses and one medical resident no registrar on (he called sick) but it was too late. Missed the treatment time. She died few days later...

My point is practical experience truly far more reliable and important then reading textbook and qualification on paper. This is the same with experienced astrologer. It is all about practical experiences.
 

Paul_

Account Closed
I have a question if a beginner never attempted to practice reading for someone else other than his or her own chart, how does one break out of the title as "Beginner"?

I thought becoming an advanced astrologer one must at least be able to read charts and predict for complete strangers.

I completely agree with you poyi. I should be clear about what I mean by a 'beginner'.

If you need to consult a book in order to feel confident about delivering a judgement, then personally I feel you are still a beginner. As such I don't think you should be engaging with predicting for strangers - really when I was addressing Waybread I had her idea of an internet forum in mind. I don't think beginners should predict for strangers online. I really don't mind if they predict things for close friends and family who knew they're only new and starting on a journey and know intrinsically to take things with a pinch of salt.

So by beginner I really have in mind the people who, for example, knew what a transit is, and then rush off and make dire predictions based on that one piece of knowledge. Or who refer to cookbooks only and have not yet understood how to synthesise the chart elements themselves. Or who don't fully understand the theory and technique behind something.

You see it a lot in horary for example. Someone posts normally using natal chart methods and comes to strong conclusions or comes to vague statements that do not address the question and only serve to confuse and alarm.

This isn't the same as a graduate - they are people engaging in study with the theory and are not new to the subject - just inexperienced. There is a difference between being new to a subject and being inexperienced in a subject. For example Waybread mentions she doesn't do horary. Yet she has two books on the subject, I would suggest that before Waybread (imagine) were to start consulting with clients that she re-read her book, and then follow what other horary astrologers do or read other judgements and follow along. When she's cmofortable enough knowing how to distinguish the relevant technicalities without needing to pick up her books, she's no longer a beginner, but she may well be inexperienced.

Then of course experience is what counts.

But really there are people, and we've all seen them online, and perhaps met them in real life, for whom the saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" is incredibly apt. I've seen someone remark on a person's chart that "is your mother dead yet? I think she might die this year if she's not". Apparently this was entirely based on a transit of the Moon to Pluto that she noted occurs later in the month. Apparently she didn't realise that the Moon transits to Pluto EVERY SINGLE month.

She was obviously a beginner to astrology and lacked the necessary skills that the art requires.
 

poyi

Premium Member
Oh yer, I know what you mean Paul.

I have seen that sometime in the forum. I had been told by my boyfriend who is my mentor for learning astrology. He said always check each of your speculation with multiple charts, natal, progression, transits, solar, lunar, eclipses, fixed stars, parts, midpoints and Horary do not short by one. A prediction should be made after analyzing all charts. Even a Horary is only a start, you must analyze all charts to confirm the details. If any chart is not unified with the other for your speculation, disregard it until you found your mistake, then you may process further. The Universe, the planets only speak as One.
 
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tsmall

Premium Member
[deleted attacking comment - Moderator]

This isn't the same as a graduate - they are people engaging in study with the theory and are not new to the subject - just inexperienced. There is a difference between being new to a subject and being inexperienced in a subject. For example Waybread mentions she doesn't do horary. Yet she has two books on the subject, I would suggest that before Waybread (imagine) were to start consulting with clients that she re-read her book, and then follow what other horary astrologers do or read other judgements and follow along. When she's cmofortable enough knowing how to distinguish the relevant technicalities without needing to pick up her books, she's no longer a beginner, but she may well be inexperienced.

You have addressed your example to one specific member, but it might as well have been addressed to many. If one cannot read an horary chart without finding a reference in a book, are you saying that that "one" should not attempt the chart?

Then of course experience is what counts.

Yes. How, then, precisely, does one go about gaining this experience? Since we know that we should not as a rule cast our own horary charts, and if we are not allowed as beginners to attempt to read others' charts...?

But really there are people, and we've all seen them online, and perhaps met them in real life, for whom the saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" is incredibly apt. I've seen someone remark on a person's chart that "is your mother dead yet? I think she might die this year if she's not". Apparently this was entirely based on a transit of the Moon to Pluto that she noted occurs later in the month. Apparently she didn't realise that the Moon transits to Pluto EVERY SINGLE month.

Oh, I've had those same conversations, on this very forum. To reiterate then, and to make sure that I am clear, one needs to enroll in an astrology certification course in order to be able to begin to read charts on an online forum, and provide credentials of the same? Otherwise, one should just...abstain from posting? Even if one prefaces the response with the caveat that she is new, and so only learning? And yet...we have members posting to threads and charts with no such disclaimer, as though they were the Alpha and Omega of astrological knowledge.
 
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Paul_

Account Closed
[deleted attacking comments and response to attacking comments - Moderator]

My reply that Waybread quoted was in relation to my advice to newbies. Not some enforcing of what they should do. If you need to grab your books to find out what signifcator to use for "does he love me" then yes, I don't think you should be predicting.

Waybread asked for my opinion on the matter so I gave it. Nobody thinks you should feel compelled to follow it - certainly I don't.

If one cannot read an horary chart without finding a reference in a book, are you saying that that "one" should not attempt the chart?

I never stated that anywhere. I said if you NEED to get a book to read a chart. Not if you want to find a reference. Please read what I'm actually writing.

Yes. How, then, precisely, does one go about gaining this experience? Since we know that we should not as a rule cast our own horary charts, and if we are not allowed as beginners to attempt to read others' charts...?

Who said you shouldn't read your own chart? I certainly didn't. I think you SHOULD read your own charts, given time, I don't necessarily think you should start out on them. So how do you learn? By examinign what other horary astrologers do - observing, following along, learning the theory. Once learned and you don't need to rely on a book you're not the beginner I had in mind. I've explained all this already.

Oh, I've had those same conversations, on this very forum. To reiterate then, and to make sure that I am clear, one needs to enroll in an astrology certification course in order to be able to begin to read charts on an online forum, and provide credentials of the same?

Unless I've stated that, you can assume that no, I'm not stating that.

PS: I haven't stated that, you can conclude, therefore, that I'm not stating that.

Let's stick with what I'm actually saying.
 
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Mandy

Well-known member
To reiterate then, and to make sure that I am clear, one needs to enroll in an astrology certification course in order to be able to begin to read charts on an online forum, and provide credentials of the same? Otherwise, one should just...abstain from posting? Even if one prefaces the response with the caveat that she is new, and so only learning? And yet...we have members posting to threads and charts with no such disclaimer, as though they were the Alpha and Omega of astrological knowledge.

(even though this thread is not about beginners and I am not an astrologer) I agree with Paul. Astrology is a diagnostic tool. People have a tendency to absorb diagnostic information without much questioning, they find a way to accommodate it. Lets be real, every trade needs ideally a supervisor because unsupervised mistakes leave consequences for the recipient.

I hear that formal supervision is not available to some beginners, but that does not mean it is ethical to practice anyway. It just means that you do practice anyway.

Just as formal supervision may be not accessible to some, so professional rectification may be not accessible to others (i.e., the recipients). So the problem remains, it is just passed on (potentially) to a completely unknown soul. In light of this, my moral compass starts to wobble when I read extensively on the last couple of threads concerned with morality that some 'astrologers' seem to be more occupied with themseves, their accuracy, their learning, than with putting the wellbeing of that unknown soul as foremost.

In my eyes the only thing that evens out, but does not water down, this effect is that even the professional eyes on this forum are wrong at times and/or have a bedside manner that leaves much to be desired. My2.
 
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poyi

Premium Member
When I attempt to read, I always present myself as learning a student, not professional only sharing what I think and would like feedback from recipient to ensure I don't go too wrong. I reflect on their feedback when I am unsure then processing further with respect of my recipient. I assess if I have given positive effects or negative effects to the recipient through my reading and if I got things right.

When it is out of my comfort zone to read certain things I have no shame to say, "I don't know." I make sure my recipient remind positive with possible negative reading and find a way to counsel them to understand they have power to take control and the key is acceptance when we have no control, instead of focusing what we don't have we focus on what we surly already have.

It is a relationship that one must build holding hands with your recipient. Is is not a relationship, "I am telling you what you should do blah blah blah."
 

poyi

Premium Member
I got some idea from the other thread. Maybe we should first review how we interact with other, 7th house and the dispositor can show our style in counselling as an astrologer. Also the way we talk would be 3rd house Mercury along with Moon as emotional related expressions. Social grace would be Venus, 1st, 10th house and maybe 11th house. We should first be aware of our own short comings before counselling by assessing our own charts objectively to review our own qualities as a counsellor, what sort of counsellor am I? A good astrologer should be the one already did good level of inner works.

And of course do I have a good moral standard that will ensure my client's welfare, 9th house and ruler. Is my mind calm and just, willing to respect and listen flexibly? I think everyone has potentials to be a type of counsellor that will benefit certain type of clients but we need to know what we are good at.

I think to be careful and not to get overly emotional with your own words and the ability to be able to pull yourself out and stay objective and be strict on the rules on chart interpretation and prediction can encourage better result. That will take a good level of air elements, a strong mercury, well dignified Saturn and Jupiter even Venus/Neptune to be logically objective with a good mix of positivity, fair and not one sided moral standard and spiritual inner strength as well as compassion.
 
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AstroLogical

Well-known member
To "predict" is not moral. To highlight potential is.

We, as students of astrology, inherit an ancient linage of knowledge and insight, this is true. What is also true, we inherit the dubious title of being "false prophets" to many. The problem began in the human ego where some astrologers of long ago and since—despite their gift to understand these cosmic matters, left the impression that what the stars told them was absolute; a done deal—FATED. The power to influence a person's belief carries a huge moral responsibility. Had we, as modern astrologers, inherited a history void of this perceived mystical power to "foretell the future" the art and science of astrology would be more widely embraced and recognized for what it is—a tool for self understanding.

The fundamental problem is some astrologers allow the believers and curious to think astrology is something more than a road map with multiple potential options. Arguably a map is better than no map at all and an astrologer worth his or her salt should always emphasize the element of freewill in choosing which road to take. In some ways we become partners walking along that road with the person we are counseling. If we are in error we may not be alone in the outcome. The astro guide may point out potential chemistry matches in a "relationship study" and where compatibility, friction or conflict may exist yet the emphasis of choice and freewill must be presented in balance to the apparent "FATED" quality of a relationship match. To let a client walk away believing "It is so written in then stars" is just plain wrong.

It is true that astrologers, even non astrologers pierce the veil and receive a glimpse of future events from time to time, however, in most cases the astrologer is reading the chart to the level of their personal intellectual and intuitive understanding—that's all. Self honesty and personal humility on the part of the astrologer is paramount. We all love to be loved, respected and recognized for having something unique and special to offer yet we must remember our gift is for service to others not for our own sense of personal power. When astrological information is passed on in a reading the matter of personal choice and personal responsibility should always be highlighted. Nobody should ever leave an astrologer with the impression "an outcome is certain or fated." Such honesty will do more to further the respect for our study than not.

Having said this, I believe it is moral to "council" people who want to also have an astrological perspective of a potential relationship, etc. As long as we do not leave them with an air of "absolute knowing." The fact of the matter is, some people will believe just about anything so care must be taken in what we as astrologers feed into their belief.

This offers a moral balance.

A*L
 

poyi

Premium Member
In regarding to predicting relationship as such. I think it will be moral to predict timing when you have the skills if not sure just saying "Not sure". Can point out some potential issues but should remind recipient that relationship always requires both side to work together. And promote the understanding of ups and downs in life just the necessary part of our lesson to become a better person and no one is doomed for life as long as we have the right attitude. It is not fate that makes us depressed but the way we seeing it. Even a moon affected by Saturn can cause depression should also emphasis all transit and progression will go and even in natal we can still seek external source to improve the situation.
 
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Marinka

Well-known member
To "predict" is not moral. To highlight potential is.

We, as students of astrology, inherit an ancient linage of knowledge and insight, this is true. What is also true, we inherit the dubious title of being "false prophets" to many. The problem began in the human ego where some astrologers of long ago and since—despite their gift to understand these cosmic matters, left the impression that what the stars told them was absolute; a done deal—FATED. The power to influence a person's belief carries a huge moral responsibility. Had we, as modern astrologers, inherited a history void of this perceived mystical power to "foretell the future" the art and science of astrology would be more widely embraced and recognized for what it is—a tool for self understanding.

The fundamental problem is some astrologers allow the believers and curious to think astrology is something more than a road map with multiple potential options. Arguably a map is better than no map at all and an astrologer worth his or her salt should always emphasize the element of freewill in choosing which road to take. In some ways we become partners walking along that road with the person we are counseling. If we are in error we may not be alone in the outcome. The astro guide may point out potential chemistry matches in a "relationship study" and where compatibility, friction or conflict may exist yet the emphasis of choice and freewill must be presented in balance to the apparent "FATED" quality of a relationship match. To let a client walk away believing "It is so written in then stars" is just plain wrong.

It is true that astrologers, even non astrologers pierce the veil and receive a glimpse of future events from time to time, however, in most cases the astrologer is reading the chart to the level of their personal intellectual and intuitive understanding—that's all. Self honesty and personal humility on the part of the astrologer is paramount. We all love to be loved, respected and recognized for having something unique and special to offer yet we must remember our gift is for service to others not for our own sense of personal power. When astrological information is passed on in a reading the matter of personal choice and personal responsibility should always be highlighted. Nobody should ever leave an astrologer with the impression "an outcome is certain or fated." Such honesty will do more to further the respect for our study than not.

Having said this, I believe it is moral to "council" people who want to also have an astrological perspective of a potential relationship, etc. As long as we do not leave them with an air of "absolute knowing." The fact of the matter is, some people will believe just about anything so care must be taken in what we as astrologers feed into their belief.

This offers a moral balance.

A*L


There is another thread that looks at whether there is free will or not. I happen to be one of those that believe your life is mapped out and therefore, there is no free will.

With that, your argument does not make sense to me but, it may to others.
 

waybread

Well-known member
There is some agreement here that a beginner is entitled to answer questions on an Internet forum (though as you all know, I draw the line at death prediction) but with massive amounts of humility.

I first started to read charts on-line for people in late 2007 over at Astrodienst, after roughly 17 years of study, which involved only modest numbers of chart-readings for real-time people other than myself. I was constantly prefacing my posts with phrases like, "I am not a professional, but...." or "I am a beginner, so your feedback would be greatly appreciated, because this is how I learn."

After a while, a few other chart-readers suggested I simply get over my waffling, and just read the chart! But I still give mostly qualified assessments. "You may..." or "you probably...." or better yet, "oftentimes people with this chart placement have....."

This latter approach sets up a much better dynamic. In synastry, you don't have to say, "With your sun squaring his sun, you've got ego conflicts galore." Rather, try something like, "Couples with squared suns often get into ego conflicts."

Paul, if I were to get into horary (and with my open-ended beliefs about the future, I never say never) I would probably approach a question in the same way. Something like, "I don't read a lot of horary charts, but this one looks like X Y Z, with the result that this relationship probably will not work out." You can then go on to suggest other things by way of strengthening the querent's self-esteem.

Right now I have several reasons why I don't do horary; partly relating to my views about the future, which I do see as more open-ended. I also believe that human wisdom and maturity is better served by learning how to cope with risk and uncertainty.

This doesn't mean that I am entirely ignorant of horary. In my universe a chart will express itself somehow, but we can influence or even choose what variants of that expression will manifest. I recognize that horary charts, depending on how they fall out, can suggest mitigating actions (contra- astral determinism) but by this point I'd rather work with a natal chart and with familiar methods whereby I don't have to consult books prior to responding.

However, I hope we are all still on our learning curves! And ideally, this goes beyond the techniques to be ongoing students of human nature and human experience.
 
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poyi

Premium Member
I read Astrological's post again. I think I must had got your message wrong and I seem to sound confusing myself in my reply.

In regard to free will, I think life path is destined, but we do have the free will within and above the wheel of fate, on choosing what attitude to see it and to allow ourselves to gain understanding/happiness or suffering from the situation.

If an astrologer is confident with his/her skills also delivering with caring, sensitive, good counseling skills. I don't think it will be immoral to predict. To me is not the prediction itself as long as you got the skills, the differences really would be the way of delivering the reading.
 
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Marinka

Well-known member
There is some agreement here that a beginner is entitled to answer questions on an Internet forum (though as you all know, I draw the line at death prediction) but with massive amounts of humility.


I agree that this is a perfect forum for beginner's to sharpen their skills but I might disagree that they should do it with massive amounts of humility. People are not charged at this site and a beginner may spend massive amounts of time looking at charts and then formulating their answers. IMHO, where else will someone spend their time giving you this free information that could cost hundreds of dollars at a professional astrologer.

I think Poyi does a wonderful job with the approach to interpretations -- the identification of being new, provides the interpretation, and lastly .. asks for feedback. I see no hint of being "less" or "humility" rather, what I see is professionalism.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Are we arguing semantics, Marinka? By "massive amounts of humility" I don't mean abject low self-esteem. Hardly. Should I have said "serious awareness of our own shortcomings"? But let's take the opposite of humility: Hubris. Conceit. Chart reading can be time consuming, but that doesn't justify colossal insensitivity.

Astrologers are fallible people. We need to recognize it and not imagine that we possess the God's eye view.

I have read many of Poyi's posts and agree that she does a super job with people. (Except me, possibly???)
 
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poyi

Premium Member
I consider every single reading as a learning opportunity and a way for learning how to become a better astrologer in serious term.

I value their chart, their stories, information. I love to feel and experience their life through reading the chart with them and I wish I could provide better and better skills in chart interpretation as well as counseling.

I value astrology greatly. It had transformed my life and attitude of seeing life and sufferings. It had also allowed me to learn the lesson of compassion and forgiveness knowing all the crisis and pain in the past were part of life to mold me into this version of myself. I appreciated my life had been to me the ups and downs. I see values of them and I wish people can also find the positive perspective during difficult time.

Predictive astrology assists people to see life as a bigger picture and not to focus on the past got stuck to it and overwhelmed by the current frustrating situation; instead to focus logically and objectively on what actions they could take and what attitude they should have to get through the current time and be prepared of the future with Again better attitude. I think nothing morally wrong on providing predictions when you have the skills. It is the matter of learning and testing, with the agreement from your recipient and the willingness of the recipient to do their own objective reflection and make decision in their own life.

You may think how do you know if that person in real life is what they claimed they are on the forum. The fact is if you have the skills, you can clearly see through the chart. So again, if you have the skills, then go ahead, nothing immoral about that. It will be only immoral if you can predict but not providing the appropriate counseling to assist your recipient. Of course you can't hold their hands forever, eventually you need to let the baby to walk on his own feet, but you gave them the information and is up to them. Guide and let go.

To find out rather a person is vulnerable or not. I think all people come to ask for serious matter in their life is vulnerable, but I also have respect and faith in their ability to handle their life. The only one that I have doubt will be those under 18 years old but then I am not here to be their parent either. They are the owner of their own life. I respect their decisions in life. I give them encouragement to move toward the more positive direction, but if they refused and unable to do so, I will not force myself on them. That's free will, right? I respect their thoughts and feelings. I consciously know I will never truly understand and I will never know everything. So I respect their decisions. When you show your respect and willingness to build a bond with your recipient then you can make profound influences for better.
 

Mandy

Well-known member
Predictive astrology assists people to see life as a bigger picture and not to focus on the past got stuck to it and overwhelmed by the current frustrating situation; instead to focus logically and objectively on what actions they could take and what attitude they should have to get through the current time
Poyi, why do you attach these values to a definition? A prediction is a forcast of events, period. Whether that is good or bad is an individual's choice, please be aware of that. Telling someone what actions to take does not mean they will agree or that they will take them. A prediction does not induce amnesia. It is just a prediction.

I am not being argumentative. We are talking about morals, right? So lets put the variables on the table. One of those is prediction. Cool. Value judgements are not on the table because they are the property of the native and there is also no way of knowing truly.

You may think how do you know if that person in real life is what they claimed they are on the forum. The fact is if you have the skills, you can clearly see through the chart. So again, if you have the skills, then go ahead, nothing immoral about that.
On a forum, one has no way of knowing whether the person presenting the chart is the native or is someone related to the native. Ethically speaking, there is a sizeable difference.

It will be only immoral if you can predict but not providing the appropriate counseling to assist your recipient.
As Waybread mentiones above, counseling is a bona fide profession/specialism. Unspecialised counseling can do more harm than good, especially if given by people who think they are "right." Of course I talk in general.

Waybread said something above that really underlines why I do not value astrological prediction as a helpful tool:

I also believe that human wisdom and maturity is better served by learning how to cope with risk and uncertainty.

Oftentimes what seems like help is not worth the price (metaphorically speaking) and that is why I say that I do not think it is healthy for astrologers to attach value judgements to the concept of "predictions," because predictions work only in the context of human nature which is built to sustain life healthily without third person prophecy of the future.
 
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poyi

Premium Member
Yes moral standard as I previously said is only a subjective value we learned through cultural, religious and education background as well as life experiences on top of your personality as well.

People are all different. I don't expect anyone to agree my points. In term of counselling even the professional with paper don't necessary do better job. Many variations and just impossible to get a definite answer in term or moral or not. I think this topic is impossible to find a common ground. If so then there won't be individuality. And no free will also. We can only follow our conscience and yet that is subjective. Morality is subjective and can never be calculated or measured by any thing. Laws and rules yet again is subjective based on the cultural background . In Singapore eating and having chewing gum is crime as an example.

Again I don't expect anyone to support my points or belief. I respect your points and I can only continue with mine with caution and continue to review and reflect to adjust my attitude and learn from experiences. I am not telling anyone to do what I do. I am not god. I can't be perfect and so as everyone else. But I am very honest about that and will not pretend I have the final answer. If I presented myself that way. I would like to say sorry about that.

Because the subject is subjective I could only give subject views and it is no way everyone thinking the same.
 
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AstroLogical

Well-known member
There is another thread that looks at whether there is free will or not. I happen to be one of those that believe your life is mapped out and therefore, there is no free will.

With that, your argument does not make sense to me but, it may to others.

_______________________________________
Marinka

So, the stars "compelled" you to submit your reply? And here I thought you had made the decision to enter your thoughts on your own.

Perhaps if you consider the "stars" as representing the will of a Divine Operating System (OS) like a computer has, and this word processing app that we are using to type our unique thoughts and opinions to each other as the expression our freewill. What we choose to write as an individual is the expression within the parameters of the Divine OS. A chart is simply a snapshot of the OS in time, providing us with insight as to how our individual potential can best be expressed in concert with the Divine OS.

So, I would agree that there is an element of fundamental predetermination within the OS, how it operates and how we function within it... yet we do express personal preference and choice throughout our life experience. Both the Divine OS and our individual freewill work in tandem—when we are in sync, anyway. It is when we as individuals choose to run our own OS and attempt to override the Divine OS that we smack head-on into the difficulties of life. When we are in harmony with the Divine OS life flows along much easier... however, we always have the choice to be agreeable or not and the potential to understand the cause and effect of our freewill.

Do we have anymore agreement now?

I am personally responsible for opinions and views freely expressed in this commentary.
A*L
 
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