Which Sign is, "Stronger"?

Arian Maverick

Well-known member
At what degree is each planet located? You'll have to consult Ptolemy's table of Essential Dignities and consider if each planet occupies its own triplicity, term, face, etc. to determine which is "stronger." I believe there's a points system involved; triplicity, term, and face are not worth the same number of points.

Can someone help me here? I'm tempted to say a planet earns 5 points if it's in the sign of its rulership, 4 points if it's in the sign of its exaltation, 3 points if it's in its own triplicity, 2 points if it's in its own term, and 1 point if it's in its own face. Is this correct?

EDIT: I think this is correct--at least according to Lilly's Table to Examine the Strength & Debility of Each Planet. You may also wish to consider if the planet is in mutual reception with another planet by sign or by exaltation. I suppose using points for accidental dignity couldn't hurt, either...

If you need help reading Ptolemy's table of Essential Dignities, please post the exact degree/minute of each of the planets.

Arian Maverick
 
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Arian Maverick

Well-known member
I believe that the Egyptian Terms (aka Bounds) to be more accurate than the ones given by Ptolemy, however, and so do most others. I also use Venus for the Day Ruler of the Water Triplicity, the Dorotheus system.

Did you list the Egyptian terms in another thread, Joseph? I clearly recall your excellent description of the triplicities and how they govern different periods of one's life, but I don't recall the Egyptian terms. Perhaps you may be willing to provide us with another lesson soon? :joyful:

Important also in terms of aspects, is the idea of Sinister and Dexter. The Dexter is more powerful than the sinister, and so you will have to learn this if you want to know which planet controls another, when they are in aspect with each other.

Also, if you don't mind, can you tell me if dexter is the same or similar to an "applying" aspect and sinister is the same or similar to a "separating" aspect?

Arian Maverick
 
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Joseph Ledzion

Well-known member
Beloved,

Here are the Egyptian Bounds.

egyptianTerms.png


Here is what the Hellenistic Astrologer Vettius Valens says about them (with some of my notes in them about wording, and a few of the other translations have been added too, for clarity):

Concerning the Sixty Boundaries/Terms

The first 6 degrees of Aries, those of Jupiter, are temperate, robust, abundant in seed, benefic.
The 6 degrees of Venus are cheerful, skillful, radiant, even, pure, well-colored.
The 8 degrees possessed by Mercury are ambiguous, changeable and well-grown, immovable, windy, full of hail and thunder, hurling thunderbolts.
The 5 degrees of Mars are bearers of destruction, intensely hot, unstable due to the mischief of men, rash.
The next 5 degrees of Saturn are very cold, barren, malicious, injurious.

The first 8 degrees of Taurus, those of Venus, are fertle, prolific, watery, prone to vice or lecherous, condemned (allowing of conviction), hating strife.
The next 6 degrees of Mercury are sagacious (intelligent), prudent, mischievous (evil doers), deficient in seed (having few offspring), short-sighted (poor sighted), death-bringing (causing death).
The next 8 degrees of Jupiter are high minded, manly, fortunate, rulering and beneficent, great souled (magnanimous), temperate, modesty-loving.
The fourth group, the 5 of Saturn, are very barren, sterile (childless), pertaining to eunuchs (eunuch-like), vagabonds, blameworthy (reprehensible), theatrical, joyless, toilsome.
The final 3 degrees, those of Mars, are masculine, tyrannical, fiery, harsh, murderous, sacreligious (temple-robbers), thoroughly depraved (utterly bad), not infertile, but destructive and not long lived.

The first 6 degrees of Gemini, those of Mercury, are temperate, mild, sagacious, skillful, knowledgeable, practical, sung about, abundant in seed.
The next 6 degrees, of Jupiter, are contentious, temperate, mild, abundant in seed, well-fed, beneficent.
The 3rd group, the 5 of Venus, are flowery, musical, acroamatic, poetic, crown-wearing, popular, merry, abundant in seed.
The 4th group, those 7 of Mars, are toilsome, brotherless, with few children, staying at home, resourceful, destructive, raw, meddlesome.
Finally, the next group of degrees, the 6 of Saturn, are temperate, administrative, acquisitive, noetic, erudite, notable, distinguished in sagacity, able to succeed at great things, highly esteemed.

The first 7 degrees of Cancer, those of Mars, have to do with the hurling of thunderbolts, and are distracted, irregular, of contrary purpose, full of madness, abundant in seed, lacking, destructive, bad for completion.
The next 6 degrees of Venus are abundant in seed, blameworthy, pure, changeable, artistic, popular and mixed. Of many types.
The following 6 degrees are precisely those of Mercury, thievish, leading in public matters, pertaining to tax-fanning, popular, resourceful, bring surplus.
The fourth group of degrees, the 7 of Jupiter, are kingly, autonomous, esteemed, litigious, high-minded, temperate, pertaining to rulers and the good of the whole.
The final degrees, the 4 of Saturn - since the whole is water - are very wet and lacking in properties and deficient for accomplishment.

The first 6 degrees of Leo, those of Jupiter, are masculine, experienced, autonomous, always domineering, practical, eminent, having no depression.
The next 5 degrees, those of Venus, are rather temperate, consecrated, very wise, devoted to enjoyment.
The third group of degrees, the 7 of Saturn, are much experienced, timid, natural, well-grown, narrow, secret, with many children, inquisitive about occult matters but barren and unsown.
The next degrees, the 6 of Mercury, are acroamatic (speaking profoundly), popular, professional, educative, legal, sagacious. These are also unsown, but of longlived men.
The final degrees, the 6 of Mars, are most base (mean spirited, selfish lack of human decency), monstrous, destructive, injurious, slothful, blameworthy and unfortunate.

The first 7 degrees of Virgo, those of Mercury, are most exualted, administrative, very orderly, quite wise, fitting, ordaining great things, most sagacious, noble and eminent in all things. Unfortunate only in regard to matters of love, in general the whole of Virgo, but especially these degrees and those of Venus. For, these degrees are open to accusation, while those of Venus go astray in all things. They especially yield eminence in education.
The next 10 degrees of Venus are blameworthy, erring in matters of marriage, encountering bad things because of these, fortunate in theatrical matters, most shameful in relation to the passions, especially when Saturn is co-testifying, and they pertain to adulterers when Mercury is co-testifying, and to a multitude of errors combined when Jupiter is cotestifying, and furthermore are condemnations, and clandestine actions present when the Sun is, deterrents and political oppositions when the Moon is, and if it should be seen by the malefics, it causes prostitution.
The third degrees, the 4 of Jupiter, are fond of farming, fitting, of those who have withdrawn, not uneducated. They are also protective and abundant in seed and preservative.
The fourth degrees, the 7 of Mars, are male, harsh, popular, crowd-pleasing and wandering about at night, secretive, counterfeiting, adventitious. These degrees themselves commit outrages on men and lead them into bondage and mutilation and tortures and custody.
The remaining 2 degrees of Saturn are monstrous, very cold, destructive, short-lived, of men who are defrauded.

The first 6 degrees of Libra, those of Saturn, are kingly, exualted, practical, and especially so by day, but overly exacting by night. They are sterile, very wet, destructive.
The next 5 degrees of Mercury are mercantile, pertaining to handicrafts, commercial, able to draw up contracts and to total up numbers. In general, legally correct, sagacious.
The third group of degrees, the 8 of Jupiter, are productive of wealth, but at least when Jupiter is upon them, they are degrees of ill-faring, joyless, degrees of things being hoarded, of insignificant and sordid life, with no love of beauty, of the censorious, nor even blest with children.
The 4th group, the 7 degrees of Venus, are those of the love of beauty, love of the arts, or even those of artistry (for example, plastering, painting, relief carving). In general, they are degrees of those who are rhythmical, religious, mild, who gradually have good fortune, who advance by their own efforts, and those who are greatly fortunate in the area of marriage, being blessed in every regard.
The remaining 4 degrees, those of Mars, are of those who are dominant, of squadron commanders, of those who are fortunate in such matters and in every art of Mars, and of the easy-going and the steadfast and those who hold fast and of the high-minded, but not of those who are favored in their brothers or those with many brothers.

The first 7 degrees of Scorpio, those of Mars, are uproarious, fickle, inconstant, irascible, free of speech, high-minded, with few children, many brothers, irregular in fortune, extremely fiery, fit for births related to military service and going away from home.
The next 4, those of Venus, are degrees of those fortunate in marriage, of the religious, of those loved by all, of those who love of the arts, of those well-provided, of those chosen by all, of sweet life,
The third degrees, the 8 of Mercury, are those pertaining to arms, contentious, degrees of those who bear crowns and of those who are sharp of speech, of matters pertaining to contest, of those who are not to be despised. These are also abundant in seed, and in general, degrees of those who are busy with thoughts of mischief, especially in respect of those who seek to tempt or those who perpetrate wickednesses.
The 4th group, the 5 of Jupiter, are degrees of the resourceful, the fortunate, of archpriests, of those being distinguished with gold, with purple, with offices in accordance with the specific magnitude of the births, of the beneficent. In general, of those who love man and the gods.
Finally, the 6 of Saturn are degrees of the punitive, of those with few children, with few brothers, of those who hate their own families, of poisoners, of the melancholic, of misogynists, of those having hidden injuries. In general, of the most punitive, of the most querulous. They are also hated by gods and by men, they offer resistance to those in authority, and they are despised by those of low estate.

The first 12 degrees of Sagittarius, those of Jupiter, are degrees of practical men. They are wet along with being temperate, quite versatile in every art and activity, abundant in seed and with many children and many brothers, but poor.
The next 5 degrees of Venus are temperate, esteemed, conducive to victory, crown-bearing, religious, degrees of those who are honored by men in crowds and by rulers, graced with children and brothers, used to being more around women.
The third group, the 4 of Mercury, are degrees of lovers of discourse, of the eccentric, of the practical, of those born with a title for life, of philosophers. In general, of those who are pre-eminent in knowledge and wisdom, of those fond of learning when Mercury should incline toward it, fond of weapons and tactics when Mars should so incline.
The next 5 of Saturn inflict, are sterile and injurious, very cold, hurtful, degrees of base men and those who are unfortunate in everything.
The next 4 of Mars are fervid, foolhardy, haughty, shameless, destructive, except that they are those who are restless in everything. All the Sagittarius are diverse in all things.

The first 7 degrees of Capricorn, those of Mercury, are theatrical, satyr-like, imitative, mendacious, pertaining to prostitutes, given to pandering, desirous of the things of others, and disreputable, though well-disposed for everything and agreeable and successful, yet not proud.
The next 7 degrees of Jupiter are those that make for ups and downs of reputation and disrepute, of wealth and poverty, of charitable contributions and theatrical displays, sterile degrees, with a tendency to female or monstrous offspring, petty, private. The next 8 degrees of Venus are those of the hopeless, of the lecherous and viceprone, without judgment, culpable, changeable in relation to goals, neither dying well nor sound in the area of marriage.
The fourth group of degrees, the 4 of Saturn, are severe, cheerless, eccentric, unfortunate in children, and in brothers, crude, destructive, exceeding cold, incompatible, malicious, inclined to procrastination, treacherous.
The final group of degrees, the 4 of Mars, are exaulted, authoritative, tyrannical, degrees that confer hegemony over everything, poor in relatives and homicidal, fond of travelling, fond of solitude, contentious to the end.

The first 7 degrees of Aquarius, those of Mercury, are for the wealthy, the lovers of treasure, those who contentedly save up against the mediocrity of birth, degrees of the intelligent, the legalistic, those who give an exact accounting of everything, those who are commanding, smallsouled, care-laden, those who love children and are highly skilled in every art, degrees of the administrative, the economical, the philanthropist.
The next 6 degrees of Venus are of those who are well loved, of the religious, of those who are successful without trouble, degrees of those who have strokes of good luck, of the successful, of those given to seafaring. These are the prolific degrees, but it happens that he who is born in them copulates with old or diseased women or eunuchs, while he is advanced by those without seed or those who have succeeded.
The next 7 degrees, those of Jupiter, are fortunate, concerned with trifles, stay at-home, not caring about reputation, without ostentation, blessed with children, not fond of one's brothers.
The next 5 of Mars are injurious (especially in the middle), are occupied with lawsuits, degrees of worthless men, of the feeble, of those who fail, except that they are degrees of those who quickly set their hand to villainy.
The remaining 5 of Saturn are sterile, very wet, difficult of conception, injurious (and especially for membranes and the forms inside and dropsy and convulsions) lacking, with few brothers, few children, envious, not fortunate up to the end.

The first degrees of Pisces, the 12 of Venus, are cheerful, abundant in seed, prone to vice, dedicated to enjoyment, living pleasantly, hilarious, lovable, agreeable, seeing to one's own advancement, dear to the gods.
The next 4 of Jupiter are those of the lover of discourse, of the scientific, of those who are conspicuous in a crowd and those who prevail over all in arguments, the degrees for having many brothers, degrees which are prolific, with many children, with extra limbs, with a huge number of brothers.
The next 3 of Mercury are abundant in seed, the first of those held in honor, bounteous, fond of nurture, merciful, god-loving, temperate.
The next 10 of Mars are practical, for sea battles, guides, and pleasantly cool, poetic concerning the things that cannot be said, rapacious and yet generous, diverse, not dying a natural death.
The final degrees, the 2 of Saturn, are injurious, very wet, convulsive, unfortunate in every regard.


Also, if you don't mind, can you tell me if dexter is the same or similar to an "applying" aspect and sinister is the same or similar to a "separating" aspect?
Arian Maverick

Dexter is when the faster moving planet looks backwards in the Zodiac and makes an aspect.

Sinister is when the faster moving planet aspects a planet that is ahead of it in Zodiacal Longitude.

dex-sin.gif


It's very important to understand, because the planet on the right further in Diurnal Motion will always beat out the other planets. And thus, it is better to have a Benefic on the right, rather than a Malefic !

Did you know that the term Aspect actually means "to see," or "sight?" The entire construct of aspects is created by the ability of a planet "to see" another planet. That is why there were no weird sesqiquadrates, or bi-septiles in the classical period (those can after Kepler). Everything was based on visibility.

AspectCircle2.gif


pics from skyscript.co.uk

Peace be with you.

Joseph
 
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Arian Maverick

Well-known member
Really helpful, Joseph! Thanks.

Indeed; I think you should compile a book containing your posts on this site!

p. s. For long quotes, we ask that you cite your source.

Didn't he cite his source already, waybread? :unsure:

Here is what the Hellenistic Astrologer Vettius Valens says about them (with some of my notes in them about wording, and a few of the other translations have been added too, for clarity)

Dexter is when the faster moving planet looks backwards in the Zodiac and makes an aspect.

Sinister is when the faster moving planet aspects a planet that is ahead of it in Zodiacal Longitude.

Ah yes, I remember now! So it's more desirable to have the faster-moving planet look backwards in the Zodiac towards the planet with which it makes an aspect? What is the influence of dexter aspets as opposed to sinister aspects? Are sinister aspects as sinister as they sound?

It's very important to understand, because the planet on the right further in Diurnal Motion will always beat out the other planets. And thus, it is better to have a Benefic on the right, rather than a Malefic !

Can you please explain this, Joseph? I don't understand the concept of a planet "beating out" the other planets. Also, what would are the indications of having a malefic planet on the left?

Did you know that the term Aspect actually means "to see," or "sight?" The entire construct of aspects is created by the ability of a planet "to see" another planet. That is why there were no weird sesqiquadrates, or bi-septiles in the classical period (those can after Kepler). Everything was based on visibility.

No, I did not realize this. Does these "weird" aspects include quincunxes?

Thank you for sharing your abundant knowledge. :love:

Arian Maverick
 
Hi,

I was looking up an Aspect in 'The Astrologer's Handbook' by Frances Sakoian and Louis Acker http://www.amazon.com/Astrologers-Handbook-HarperResource-Book/dp/006272004X
....and under the description for Venus Opposed Mars it gave two very different interpretation depending on whether the Venus or Mars placement was, "stronger".

My question is, if Venus is in Sagittarius and Mars is in Gemini, which is "stronger"? Sagittarius or Gemini? :confused:

Please understand there are allsorts of different types of Astrologers here on AW. The members quoting dignitories are Traditional astrologer and use ancient books and don't even consider using planets after Saturn.... ie: Uranus Neptune & Pluto.

Now I'm a modern astrologer that uses Equal house system and try to keep matters very simple, espec for beginners. So back to your question then....

"applying" and "separating"

There are only three factors, but you have to have a way of knowing them.

1) Speed of the planets
2) Which planets is ahead, and which one is behind.

A simple example:

If two planets are close to conjunction, if the one "ahead" is moving slower, the aspect is applying.

If two planets are close to conjunction, if the one "behind" is moving slower, the aspect is separating.

There are some general rules about the speed of planets, but retrograde motion makes this a bit complicated for all true planets. Only the Sun and Moon do not alternate between direct and retrograde motion

Now Venus in Sagg is notorious for 'playing the field' and late for settling down and likes lots of freedom and independence within relationships. Gemini & Sagg are 'mutuable' signs and therefore adaptable and restless. Mars in Gemini wants to talk (air element) about lots of different things may have fingers in lots of pies and enjoy reading, studying, using computers, interenet chat etc and Venus is just sociable, romantic and craves action (fire element).

So, here's my simple table for dignitories:-


Body Domicile Detriment
Sun Leo //Aquarius

Moon Cancer //Capricorn

Mercury Gemini Sagittarius //Virgo Pisces

Venus Libra Scorpio //TaurusAries

Mars Aries Libra// Scorpio Taurus

Jupiter Sagittarius Gemini //Pisces Virgo

Saturn Capricorn Cancer //Aquarius Leo

Uranus Aquarius //Leo

Neptune Pisces //Virgo

Pluto Scorpio //Taurus
 
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Hi,

I was looking up an Aspect in 'The Astrologer's Handbook' by Frances Sakoian and Louis Acker http://www.amazon.com/Astrologers-Handbook-HarperResource-Book/dp/006272004X
....and under the description for Venus Opposed Mars it gave two very different interpretation depending on whether the Venus or Mars placement was, "stronger".

My question is, if Venus is in Sagittarius and Mars is in Gemini, which is "stronger"? Sagittarius or Gemini? :confused:

Mars will affect Venus more strongly if the chart is Aries, the individual will be independent, want to do things his own way, pioneering etc. If Venus is stronger in the chart through an emphasis of Libra you will be more compromising, and will need to please and create harmony. These two aspects will conflict in your personality but if your more Martian you may often put your own needs before others, or seek independence, if your Venusian you may feel you do all the compromising and balancing in the relationship.

Mars will include Aries, aspects to Mars and planets in the 1st house.

Venus will include Libra, aspects to Venus and planets in the 7th house

However you may be a Taurean Venus, and will look for planets in Taurus and the 2nd house.

Usually the planet you will identify with most strongly will show in the overall chart:

For example:

I have Venus square Pluto - I have inputted different strengths according to planets, position, and aspects in my computer, and here is what I score for Venus & Pluto:

Number 2: Venus/Taurean =

4.00 Points, Plu in 2nd house
1.20 Points, Moo sxt Ven, Orb = 2°23'
1.37 Points, Mer sxt Ven, Orb = 1°54'
0.55 Point, Ura sxt Ven, Orb = 4°22'
1.39 Points, Plu sqr Ven, Orb = 6°31'
2.10 Points, Jup opp Ven, Orb = 4°44'
TOTAL= 10.61 points times 6.760 is 72 points

Number 7 Venus/Libra =

1.00 Point, Plu in Lib
6.00 Points, Sun in 7th house
6.00 Points, Moo in 7th house
4.00 Points, Mer in 7th house
1.20 Points, Moo sxt Ven, Orb = 2°23'
1.37 Points, Mer sxt Ven, Orb = 1°54'
0.55 Point, Ura sxt Ven, Orb = 4°22'
1.39 Points, Plu sqr Ven, Orb = 6°31'
2.10 Points, Jup opp Ven, Orb = 4°44'
TOTAL= 23.61 points times 6.760 is 160 points

Number 8 = Pluto

1.00 Point, Ura in Sco
1.50 Points, Nep sxt Plu, Orb = 1°30'
1.39 Points, Ven sqr Plu, Orb = 6°31'
TOTAL= 3.89 points times 6.840 is 27 points

As you can see I relate mostly to the 7th house Venus archetypes, and less so with Plutonic themes. I usually identify with the Venusian part of the aspect :love:.

Choose what works for you :wink:
 
</SPAN></SPAN>Hi Gizmo,

I put these planetary strengths into Kepler 7, in the research sector of the program under Astro-signature. I am still debating how they work, and if they have any real relevance. I analyzed famous people through the program to test how my point system worked against the charts, and I am still debating it. Basically I input all the data and the computer calculates it.

I was counting Hitlers chart, and he has the Venus-Mars conjunction in Taurus. Hitler has a lot of 7th house energy, and Venus n Taurus in the 7th house, which suggests Venus is stronger in his chart. In Mikes chart it might be a question about him deciding what sign he feels is stronger - As I am not sure there is a clear cut answer.

Here are two famous people I have used to test the point system: However, with Hitler he scored low in 11th energy but Mercury-Uranus fall on the angles in opposition, and this would strengthen this aspect of him. It's interesting to do, and to determine what energy is predominating. Not all people with agree with this way of analysing charts. It's useful for an overview, and then apply your own interpretations.

[Moderators move these posts to a separate thread if you want]

Adolph Hitler:

GERhitler2.JPG


Hitler gained power in Germany facing crisis after World War I. He used charismatic oratory and propaganda, appealing to economic need, nationalism and anti-Semitism to establish an authoritarian regime. With a restructured economy and rearmed military, Hitler pursued an aggressive foreign policy with the intention of expanding German Lebensraum ('living space') and triggered WW2 in Europe by invading Poland.

Adolf Hitler was the leader of Germany from 1933-1945. He tried to create what he thought was the (Aryan race) "Perfect Race" and tried to eliminate anyone who didn't fit that description. He led Germany through WWII into most of their victories and to their defeat.

Number 7 Libra/Venus/7th

1.00 Point, Ura in Lib
6.00 Points, Sun in 7th house
6.00 Points, Ven in 7th house
4.00 Points, Mar in 7th house
2.71 Points, Sat sqr Ven, Orb = 3°14'
0.46 Point, Jup tri Ven, Orb = 8°27'
3.87 Points, Mar cnj Ven, Orb = 0°19'
6.00 Points, Asc in Lib
TOTAL= 30.04 points times 6.760 is 203 points

Number 2 Taurus/Venus/2nd

6.00 Points, Sun in Tau
6.00 Points, Ven in Tau
3.00 Points, Mar in Tau
2.71 Points, Sat sqr Ven, Orb = 3°14'
0.46 Point, Jup tri Ven, Orb = 8°27'
3.87 Points, Mar cnj Ven, Orb = 0°19'
TOTAL= 22.04 points times 6.760 is 149 points

Number 10 - Capricorn/Saturn/10th

6.00 Points, Moo in Cap
2.00 Points, Jup in Cap
6.00 Points, Sat in 10th house
2.71 Points, Ven sqr Sat, Orb = 3°14'
2.83 Points, Sat sqr Mar, Orb = 2°55'
0.43 Point, Sat cnj MC, Orb = 9°17'
TOTAL= 19.97 points times 6.980 is 139 points

Number 3 Gemini/Mercury/3rd

1.00 Point, Nep in Gem
1.00 Point, Plu in Gem
6.00 Points, Moo in 3rd house
4.00 Points, Jup in 3rd house
2.92 Points, Sun cnj Mer, Orb = 5°08'
1.53 Points, Ura opp Mer, Orb = 6°11'
5.39 Points, Mer cnj 7th cusp, Orb = 1°01'
TOTAL= 21.84 points times 6.760 is 148 points

Number 6 - Mercury/Virgo/6th

6.00 Points, Mer in 6th house
2.92 Points, Sun cnj Mer, Orb = 5°08'
1.53 Points, Ura opp Mer, Orb = 6°11'
5.39 Points, Mer cnj 7th cusp, Orb = 1°01'
TOTAL= 15.84 points times 6.760 is 107 points

Number 5 - Leo/Sun/5th

6.00 Points, Sat in Leo
1.94 Points, Mer cnj Sun, Orb = 5°08'
1.67 Points, Moo tri Sun, Orb = 5°49'
0.77 Point, Jup tri Sun, Orb = 7°26'
3.53 Points, Sun cnj 7th cusp, Orb = 4°07'
TOTAL= 13.91 points times 7.100 is 99 points

Number 8 - Scorpio/Pluto/8th

4.00 Points, Nep in 8th house
6.00 Points, Plu in 8th house
2.47 Points, Nep cnj Plu, Orb = 3°49'
TOTAL= 12.47 points times 6.530 is 81 points

Number 1 - Aries/Mars/1st

3.00 Points, Mer in Ari
3.87 Points, Ven cnj Mar, Orb = 0°19'
2.83 Points, Sat sqr Mar, Orb = 2°55'
0.10 Point, Moo tri Mar, Orb = 9°45'
0.56 Point, Jup tri Mar, Orb = 8°08'
TOTAL= 10.36 points times 6.780 is 70 points

Number 9 - Sagittarius/Jupiter/9th

5.03 Points, Moo cnj Jup, Orb = 1°37'
1.02 Points, Sun tri Jup, Orb = 7°26'
0.46 Point, Ven tri Jup, Orb = 8°27'
0.56 Point, Mar tri Jup, Orb = 8°08'
TOTAL= 7.07 points times 6.730 is 48 points


Number 12 - Pisces/Neptune/12th

4.00 Points, Ura in 12th house
2.47 Points, Plu cnj Nep, Orb = 3°49'
TOTAL= 6.47 points times 6.510 is 42 points

Number 4 - Cancer/Moon/4th

3.35 Points, Jup cnj Moo, Orb = 1°37'
1.67 Points, Sun tri Moo, Orb = 5°49'
0.08 Point, Mar tri Moo, Orb = 9°45'
TOTAL= 5.10 points times 7.180 is 37 points

Number 11 - Aquarius/Uranus/11th

1.53 Points, Mer opp Ura, Orb = 6°11'
1.68 Points, Ura cnj Asc, Orb = 7°12'
TOTAL= 3.21 points times 6.890 is 22 points

Contrast it with Albert Einstein:

einstein.jpg


Albert Einstein is widely considered to be the most famous and accomplished scientist of the 20th century. He was awarded the 1921 Nobel Prize for Physics for his work on the photoelectric effect, and achieved world fame for his general theory of relativity, which he released in 1915. In 1999, he was named Person of the Century by TIME magazine.
Albert Einstein is known best for his general theory of relativity, an improved model of reality which succeeded the less-precise Newtonian model. He described fundamental connections between space and time, matter and energy. He considered space and time to be manifestations of the same underlying thing, as well as matter and energy. Because his theories were so complicated and controversial, it sometimes took a decade or more until they were accepted by the scientific community. In addition, due to his Jewish descent, Einstein's time spent in Germany during the rise of German nationalism made him the target of campaigns to discredit his theories.

Number 10 - Capricorn/Saturn/10th

3.00 Points, Mar in Cap
6.00 Points, Sun in 10th house
4.00 Points, Mer in 10th house
4.00 Points, Ven in 10th house
6.00 Points, Sat in 10th house
3.58 Points, Mer cnj Sat, Orb = 1°03'
TOTAL= 26.58 points times 6.980 is 186 points

Number 9 - Sagittarius/Jupiter/9th

6.00 Points, Moo in Sag
6.00 Points, Jup in 9th house
2.90 Points, Plu sqr Jup, Orb = 2°46'
2.48 Points, Ura opp Jup, Orb = 3°48'
TOTAL= 17.38 points times 6.730 is 117 points

Number 1 - Aries/Mars/1st

3.00 Points, Mer in Ari
3.00 Points, Ven in Ari
6.00 Points, Sat in Ari
0.86 Point, Sun sxt Mar, Orb = 3°25'
0.03 Point, Ven sqr Mar, Orb = 9°56'
2.34 Points, Plu tri Mar, Orb = 2°11'
TOTAL= 15.23 points times 6.780 is 103 points

Number 11 - Aquarius/Uranus/11th

2.00 Points, Jup in Aqu
4.00 Points, Nep in 11th house
4.00 Points, Plu in 11th house
1.37 Points, Plu sqr Ura, Orb = 6°34'
1.02 Points, Nep tri Ura, Orb = 6°35'
2.48 Points, Jup opp Ura, Orb = 3°48'
TOTAL= 14.87 points times 6.890 is 102 points

Number 6 - Virgo/Mercury/6th

1.00 Point, Ura in Vir
6.00 Points, Moo in 6th house
0.22 Point, Sun cnj Mer, Orb = 9°38'
3.58 Points, Sat cnj Mer, Orb = 1°03'
0.75 Point, Mar sxt Mer, Orb = 6°14'
TOTAL= 11.55 points times 6.760 is 78 points

Number 4 - Cancer/Moon/4th

0.61 Point, Sun sqr Moo, Orb = 8°59'
2.26 Points, Ven tri Moo, Orb = 2°28'
6.00 Points, Asc in Can
TOTAL= 8.87 points times 7.180 is 64 points

Number 8 - Scorpio/Pluto/8th

1.59 Points, Sun sxt Plu, Orb = 1°13'
2.90 Points, Jup sqr Plu, Orb = 2°46'
1.37 Points, Ura sqr Plu, Orb = 6°34'
3.12 Points, Mar tri Plu, Orb = 2°11'
TOTAL= 8.98 points times 6.530 is 59 points

Number 3 - Gemini/Mercury/3rd

4.00 Points, Ura in 3rd house
0.22 Point, Sun cnj Mer, Orb = 9°38'
3.58 Points, Sat cnj Mer, Orb = 1°03'
0.75 Point, Mar sxt Mer, Orb = 6°14'
TOTAL= 8.55 points times 6.760 is 58 points

Number 7 - Libra/Venus/7th

4.00 Points, Mar in 7th house
3.02 Points, Moo tri Ven, Orb = 2°28'
0.03 Point, Mar sqr Ven, Orb = 9°56'
TOTAL= 7.05 points times 6.760 is 48 points

Number 12 - Pisces/Neptune/12th

6.00 Points, Sun in Pis
1.02 Points, Ura tri Nep, Orb = 6°35'
TOTAL= 7.02 points times 6.510 is 46 points

Number 2 - Taurus/Venus/2nd

1.00 Point, Nep in Tau
1.00 Point, Plu in Tau
3.02 Points, Moo tri Ven, Orb = 2°28'
0.03 Point, Mar sqr Ven, Orb = 9°56'
TOTAL= 5.05 points times 6.760 is 34 points

Number 5 - Leo/Sun/5th

0.15 Point, Mer cnj Sun, Orb = 9°38'
1.59 Points, Plu sxt Sun, Orb = 1°13'
0.61 Point, Moo sqr Sun, Orb = 8°59'
1.32 Points, Mar sxt Sun, Orb = 3°25'
TOTAL= 3.67 points times 7.100 is 26 points
 
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gimzo23

Well-known member
Thanks for explaining, Shining Ray. I kinda like this method of analyzing and checking overall strengths. I think it gets you a good idea of where one's overall energy focus lies. I personally have only used Astrolog and a few other free online programs, but I haven't found a planetary or house strength chart that I could identify with completely. Some planets are either too lowly or too highly placed for how I see it and experience them. Maybe it has to do with the dignities, I don't know, but whatever it is, it must be somehow overrated, because I experience it quite differently with a couple of planets, like with my 1st house conj. Ascendant Saturn that ends up at 9th place in total rank. I don't quite get that. But I'm going off-topic here, sorry, so I'll leave it at that.
 
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Sometimes when your not happy with a system, you have to make your own. This point system is based on Zipporah Dobyns System of 1 = Aries/Mars/1st house, so planets in Aries, or in the 1st house, or aspects to Mars, are rated according to strength (hard aspect or soft) aspects to the luminaries (Sun and Moon) I usually rate a little higher, conjunctions, squares, oppositions are more intense than trines, and I score them higher, sextiles are score lowest. You can judge using orb, and planets that are angular/ Planets in their own sign or house score high. I put Saturn's sign and house placement to score high, as Saturn seems just as important as the luminaries. Although I may lower the score for sign position a little.

However, at the moment I have the aspects scored for orb of range, but I might alter it for aspects alone and see what the results are. I am not totally happy with a Pluto aspect within 5 degrees being scored lower than the full points I give it. Back to the drawing board until I am completely happy with it :smile:. I noticed this with Madonna's chart she has three aspects to Pluto, and Pluto is angular.

Number 8 -Scorpio/Pluto/8th

1.00 Point, Nep in Sco
0.84 Point, Sun cnj Plu, Orb = 8°37'
0.10 Point, Moo cnj Plu, Orb = 9°50'
2.42 Points, Mer cnj Plu, Orb = 3°56'
0.23 Point, Jup sxt Plu, Orb = 5°19'
1.81 Points, Nep sxt Plu, Orb = 0°35'
2.08 Points, Plu cnj Asc, Orb = 6°32'
TOTAL= 8.48 points times 6.500 is 55 points

I thought this score was low for her, since Pluto was angular and conjunct chart ruler. I won't re-post the results as people will get annoyed with all these planetary calculations lol.

I would just keep practicing with systems until you find one you like best, and gives the best results overall. In traditional astrology use planetary strength, I am more modern and look for planets that are most active in the chart by being angular or contacting lots of other planets and therefore exchanging in more dialogue in the chart. A planet in it's own sign or house, is always powerful. I shall stop here myself or I will ramble on too much as usual.
 

sleepy17

Well-known member
Beloved,

Here are the Egyptian Bounds.

egyptianTerms.png


Here is what the Hellenistic Astrologer Vettius Valens says about them (with some of my notes in them about wording, and a few of the other translations have been added too, for clarity):

Concerning the Sixty Boundaries/Terms

The first 6 degrees of Aries, those of Jupiter, are temperate, robust, abundant in seed, benefic.
The 6 degrees of Venus are cheerful, skillful, radiant, even, pure, well-colored.
The 8 degrees possessed by Mercury are ambiguous, changeable and well-grown, immovable, windy, full of hail and thunder, hurling thunderbolts.
The 5 degrees of Mars are bearers of destruction, intensely hot, unstable due to the mischief of men, rash.
The next 5 degrees of Saturn are very cold, barren, malicious, injurious.

The first 8 degrees of Taurus, those of Venus, are fertle, prolific, watery, prone to vice or lecherous, condemned (allowing of conviction), hating strife.
The next 6 degrees of Mercury are sagacious (intelligent), prudent, mischievous (evil doers), deficient in seed (having few offspring), short-sighted (poor sighted), death-bringing (causing death).
The next 8 degrees of Jupiter are high minded, manly, fortunate, rulering and beneficent, great souled (magnanimous), temperate, modesty-loving.
The fourth group, the 5 of Saturn, are very barren, sterile (childless), pertaining to eunuchs (eunuch-like), vagabonds, blameworthy (reprehensible), theatrical, joyless, toilsome.
The final 3 degrees, those of Mars, are masculine, tyrannical, fiery, harsh, murderous, sacreligious (temple-robbers), thoroughly depraved (utterly bad), not infertile, but destructive and not long lived.

The first 6 degrees of Gemini, those of Mercury, are temperate, mild, sagacious, skillful, knowledgeable, practical, sung about, abundant in seed.
The next 6 degrees, of Jupiter, are contentious, temperate, mild, abundant in seed, well-fed, beneficent.
The 3rd group, the 5 of Venus, are flowery, musical, acroamatic, poetic, crown-wearing, popular, merry, abundant in seed.
The 4th group, those 7 of Mars, are toilsome, brotherless, with few children, staying at home, resourceful, destructive, raw, meddlesome.
Finally, the next group of degrees, the 6 of Saturn, are temperate, administrative, acquisitive, noetic, erudite, notable, distinguished in sagacity, able to succeed at great things, highly esteemed.

The first 7 degrees of Cancer, those of Mars, have to do with the hurling of thunderbolts, and are distracted, irregular, of contrary purpose, full of madness, abundant in seed, lacking, destructive, bad for completion.
The next 6 degrees of Venus are abundant in seed, blameworthy, pure, changeable, artistic, popular and mixed. Of many types.
The following 6 degrees are precisely those of Mercury, thievish, leading in public matters, pertaining to tax-fanning, popular, resourceful, bring surplus.
The fourth group of degrees, the 7 of Jupiter, are kingly, autonomous, esteemed, litigious, high-minded, temperate, pertaining to rulers and the good of the whole.
The final degrees, the 4 of Saturn - since the whole is water - are very wet and lacking in properties and deficient for accomplishment.

The first 6 degrees of Leo, those of Jupiter, are masculine, experienced, autonomous, always domineering, practical, eminent, having no depression.
The next 5 degrees, those of Venus, are rather temperate, consecrated, very wise, devoted to enjoyment.
The third group of degrees, the 7 of Saturn, are much experienced, timid, natural, well-grown, narrow, secret, with many children, inquisitive about occult matters but barren and unsown.
The next degrees, the 6 of Mercury, are acroamatic (speaking profoundly), popular, professional, educative, legal, sagacious. These are also unsown, but of longlived men.
The final degrees, the 6 of Mars, are most base (mean spirited, selfish lack of human decency), monstrous, destructive, injurious, slothful, blameworthy and unfortunate.

The first 7 degrees of Virgo, those of Mercury, are most exualted, administrative, very orderly, quite wise, fitting, ordaining great things, most sagacious, noble and eminent in all things. Unfortunate only in regard to matters of love, in general the whole of Virgo, but especially these degrees and those of Venus. For, these degrees are open to accusation, while those of Venus go astray in all things. They especially yield eminence in education.
The next 10 degrees of Venus are blameworthy, erring in matters of marriage, encountering bad things because of these, fortunate in theatrical matters, most shameful in relation to the passions, especially when Saturn is co-testifying, and they pertain to adulterers when Mercury is co-testifying, and to a multitude of errors combined when Jupiter is cotestifying, and furthermore are condemnations, and clandestine actions present when the Sun is, deterrents and political oppositions when the Moon is, and if it should be seen by the malefics, it causes prostitution.
The third degrees, the 4 of Jupiter, are fond of farming, fitting, of those who have withdrawn, not uneducated. They are also protective and abundant in seed and preservative.
The fourth degrees, the 7 of Mars, are male, harsh, popular, crowd-pleasing and wandering about at night, secretive, counterfeiting, adventitious. These degrees themselves commit outrages on men and lead them into bondage and mutilation and tortures and custody.
The remaining 2 degrees of Saturn are monstrous, very cold, destructive, short-lived, of men who are defrauded.

The first 6 degrees of Libra, those of Saturn, are kingly, exualted, practical, and especially so by day, but overly exacting by night. They are sterile, very wet, destructive.
The next 5 degrees of Mercury are mercantile, pertaining to handicrafts, commercial, able to draw up contracts and to total up numbers. In general, legally correct, sagacious.
The third group of degrees, the 8 of Jupiter, are productive of wealth, but at least when Jupiter is upon them, they are degrees of ill-faring, joyless, degrees of things being hoarded, of insignificant and sordid life, with no love of beauty, of the censorious, nor even blest with children.
The 4th group, the 7 degrees of Venus, are those of the love of beauty, love of the arts, or even those of artistry (for example, plastering, painting, relief carving). In general, they are degrees of those who are rhythmical, religious, mild, who gradually have good fortune, who advance by their own efforts, and those who are greatly fortunate in the area of marriage, being blessed in every regard.
The remaining 4 degrees, those of Mars, are of those who are dominant, of squadron commanders, of those who are fortunate in such matters and in every art of Mars, and of the easy-going and the steadfast and those who hold fast and of the high-minded, but not of those who are favored in their brothers or those with many brothers.

The first 7 degrees of Scorpio, those of Mars, are uproarious, fickle, inconstant, irascible, free of speech, high-minded, with few children, many brothers, irregular in fortune, extremely fiery, fit for births related to military service and going away from home.
The next 4, those of Venus, are degrees of those fortunate in marriage, of the religious, of those loved by all, of those who love of the arts, of those well-provided, of those chosen by all, of sweet life,
The third degrees, the 8 of Mercury, are those pertaining to arms, contentious, degrees of those who bear crowns and of those who are sharp of speech, of matters pertaining to contest, of those who are not to be despised. These are also abundant in seed, and in general, degrees of those who are busy with thoughts of mischief, especially in respect of those who seek to tempt or those who perpetrate wickednesses.
The 4th group, the 5 of Jupiter, are degrees of the resourceful, the fortunate, of archpriests, of those being distinguished with gold, with purple, with offices in accordance with the specific magnitude of the births, of the beneficent. In general, of those who love man and the gods.
Finally, the 6 of Saturn are degrees of the punitive, of those with few children, with few brothers, of those who hate their own families, of poisoners, of the melancholic, of misogynists, of those having hidden injuries. In general, of the most punitive, of the most querulous. They are also hated by gods and by men, they offer resistance to those in authority, and they are despised by those of low estate.

The first 12 degrees of Sagittarius, those of Jupiter, are degrees of practical men. They are wet along with being temperate, quite versatile in every art and activity, abundant in seed and with many children and many brothers, but poor.
The next 5 degrees of Venus are temperate, esteemed, conducive to victory, crown-bearing, religious, degrees of those who are honored by men in crowds and by rulers, graced with children and brothers, used to being more around women.
The third group, the 4 of Mercury, are degrees of lovers of discourse, of the eccentric, of the practical, of those born with a title for life, of philosophers. In general, of those who are pre-eminent in knowledge and wisdom, of those fond of learning when Mercury should incline toward it, fond of weapons and tactics when Mars should so incline.
The next 5 of Saturn inflict, are sterile and injurious, very cold, hurtful, degrees of base men and those who are unfortunate in everything.
The next 4 of Mars are fervid, foolhardy, haughty, shameless, destructive, except that they are those who are restless in everything. All the Sagittarius are diverse in all things.

The first 7 degrees of Capricorn, those of Mercury, are theatrical, satyr-like, imitative, mendacious, pertaining to prostitutes, given to pandering, desirous of the things of others, and disreputable, though well-disposed for everything and agreeable and successful, yet not proud.
The next 7 degrees of Jupiter are those that make for ups and downs of reputation and disrepute, of wealth and poverty, of charitable contributions and theatrical displays, sterile degrees, with a tendency to female or monstrous offspring, petty, private. The next 8 degrees of Venus are those of the hopeless, of the lecherous and viceprone, without judgment, culpable, changeable in relation to goals, neither dying well nor sound in the area of marriage.
The fourth group of degrees, the 4 of Saturn, are severe, cheerless, eccentric, unfortunate in children, and in brothers, crude, destructive, exceeding cold, incompatible, malicious, inclined to procrastination, treacherous.
The final group of degrees, the 4 of Mars, are exaulted, authoritative, tyrannical, degrees that confer hegemony over everything, poor in relatives and homicidal, fond of travelling, fond of solitude, contentious to the end.

The first 7 degrees of Aquarius, those of Mercury, are for the wealthy, the lovers of treasure, those who contentedly save up against the mediocrity of birth, degrees of the intelligent, the legalistic, those who give an exact accounting of everything, those who are commanding, smallsouled, care-laden, those who love children and are highly skilled in every art, degrees of the administrative, the economical, the philanthropist.
The next 6 degrees of Venus are of those who are well loved, of the religious, of those who are successful without trouble, degrees of those who have strokes of good luck, of the successful, of those given to seafaring. These are the prolific degrees, but it happens that he who is born in them copulates with old or diseased women or eunuchs, while he is advanced by those without seed or those who have succeeded.
The next 7 degrees, those of Jupiter, are fortunate, concerned with trifles, stay at-home, not caring about reputation, without ostentation, blessed with children, not fond of one's brothers.
The next 5 of Mars are injurious (especially in the middle), are occupied with lawsuits, degrees of worthless men, of the feeble, of those who fail, except that they are degrees of those who quickly set their hand to villainy.
The remaining 5 of Saturn are sterile, very wet, difficult of conception, injurious (and especially for membranes and the forms inside and dropsy and convulsions) lacking, with few brothers, few children, envious, not fortunate up to the end.

The first degrees of Pisces, the 12 of Venus, are cheerful, abundant in seed, prone to vice, dedicated to enjoyment, living pleasantly, hilarious, lovable, agreeable, seeing to one's own advancement, dear to the gods.
The next 4 of Jupiter are those of the lover of discourse, of the scientific, of those who are conspicuous in a crowd and those who prevail over all in arguments, the degrees for having many brothers, degrees which are prolific, with many children, with extra limbs, with a huge number of brothers.
The next 3 of Mercury are abundant in seed, the first of those held in honor, bounteous, fond of nurture, merciful, god-loving, temperate.
The next 10 of Mars are practical, for sea battles, guides, and pleasantly cool, poetic concerning the things that cannot be said, rapacious and yet generous, diverse, not dying a natural death.
The final degrees, the 2 of Saturn, are injurious, very wet, convulsive, unfortunate in every regard.




Dexter is when the faster moving planet looks backwards in the Zodiac and makes an aspect.

Sinister is when the faster moving planet aspects a planet that is ahead of it in Zodiacal Longitude.

dex-sin.gif


It's very important to understand, because the planet on the right further in Diurnal Motion will always beat out the other planets. And thus, it is better to have a Benefic on the right, rather than a Malefic !

Did you know that the term Aspect actually means "to see," or "sight?" The entire construct of aspects is created by the ability of a planet "to see" another planet. That is why there were no weird sesqiquadrates, or bi-septiles in the classical period (those can after Kepler). Everything was based on visibility.

AspectCircle2.gif


pics from skyscript.co.uk

Peace be with you.

Joseph

very nice information,
full of information and stuff it is very helpful.
Just making the thread alive :D
 
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