The Twelfth House

BOOGY99

Well-known member
Boogy,
Thanks for chiming in! Just FYI, I couldn't see your chart using that link for some reason. Would love to look at it! I have Sun conjunct Uranus as well, but it's in the 4th... another water house...


hope this helps


picture.php
 

Claire19

Well-known member
SniperBomber328,

What, other than the opinions of other astrologers, has lead you to believe that the twelfth house is a house of self-destruction?
The 12th can be a house of self undoing such as addictions, having secret enemies which are often just imaginary. It is the house of institutionalisations, spiritual aspirations and seeking to escape and transcend. It is also our karma and our uncles and aunts paternal. It is how we are when we are alone and in retreat.
 

Claire19

Well-known member
The real question is, why are you clinging to the idea that the 12th House isn't so unfortunate? It's only because you wish it so.



Lets play spot the flawed logic. I'll give you a hint: A=B=C.
Jupiter may be co ruler of the 12th but Neptune is the ruler. It can be a tough house to deal with and any misfortune is karmic in nature.
It is a very psychic house and it deal with the intangibles. A well aspected 12th house shows a spiritually evolved person who serves and heals others. The ruler is also very important. The 9th house deals with spiritual matters as in wanting the truth. It deals with justice, ethics and morality. It is the gathering of wisdom.
 

StillOne

Well-known member
StillOne

I have attached my chart.
Thanks Carris. Very interesting chart. Odd that astro.com didn't display the quincunxs but they are most definitely there and in orb. It may be because it's the simplified chart from astro (not from the extended selection). The Saturn Venus opposition is very tight. However, the Merc and Neptune oppositions to Saturn appear out of orb on this chart (may find aspects here checking declinations). I find it interesting your Sun is conjunct the descendant. Jupiter conjunct NN in Cap explains a lot as well.

Thanks for sharing!

Here's my chart in case you wanted to take a gander:
 
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Carris

Well-known member
Thanks StillOne

I guess our 12th in gemini makes us want to communicate about 12th house matters - and analyse it - and bring some intellectual thinking to it. Do you think that your 12th ruler mercury near the 5th cusp makes spirituality a hobby or interest for you? While mercury in scorpio would make you want to delve deeply and intensely into the subject. Mercury is quite unaspected in your horoscope - is that supposed to make it very powerful?
Sun conj uranus is supposed to give you a talent for astrology and metaphysics - and in the 4th maybe its where your roots are - or its right where your comfort zone is - and you practice such astrology in a balanced (libran), intellectual (air sign), and new (cardinal sign) way.

I haven't really been able to understand what jupiter conjunct NN would mean - does it mean my karmic task in this lifetime is to take responsibility (capricorn) for partnerships (7th) in a spirit of generosity (jupiter)? I don't see it happening in my life. Also I read and believe that the sun's position shows where we struggle to achieve, consciously. At the cusp of the 7th do I struggle with partnerships? No more than normal, I think - its more to do with my saturn opp venus by which any kind of relationship does have a difficult quality.
 
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StillOne

Well-known member
Thanks StillOne

I guess our 12th in gemini makes us want to communicate about 12th house matters - and analyse it - and bring some intellectual thinking to it. Do you think that your 12th ruler mercury near the 5th cusp makes spirituality a hobby or interest for you? While mercury in scorpio would make you want to delve deeply and intensely into the subject. Mercury is quite unaspected in your horoscope - is that supposed to make it very powerful?
Sun conj uranus is supposed to give you a talent for astrology and metaphysics - and in the 4th maybe its where your roots are - or its right where your comfort zone is - and you practice such astrology in a balanced (libran), intellectual (air sign), and new (cardinal sign) way.
Hi Carris, you bring up some interesting points. Some which I haven't contemplated before. I do very much enjoy talking about deeper subjects due to Merc in Scorpio (hence why I'm on this board I suppose :sideways:). Yes, possibly due to Gemini being the 12th cusp that I feel the need to try and understand it's nature. Possibly also the tight quincunx between Mercury to the Moon in the 12th makes me want to relate to the 12th. I don't consider my Merc unaspected, it may be powerful... but I have much to learn still. My hobbies/interests are of the nature that can't be mastered in a lifetime completely.

Spirituality has always been an interest due to it's controversial nature. Even when I was atheist, I enjoyed talking about it and contemplating it. I've enjoyed reading many books on it and it's stimulated the probing nature of Merc in Scorpio. Yes, when I'm interested in something I tend to research quite a bit. Also, spirtiuality would definitely be an interest or a hobby! It's interesting that you mention it in this way as I can tend to learn things thru research but maybe not applying them... I think the Saturn Yod asks for application in this instance, to where I see it becoming a way of life.

I've only recently come to these conclusions regarding the Saturn apex yod since I was saving the analysis of this yod for last (I have 2 others). However, an atrologer suggested I approach this yod second in order to understand the greater configuration (pandora). He was right, I now understand all the yods...

I haven't really been able to understand what jupiter conjunct NN would mean - does it mean my karmic task in this lifetime is to take responsibility (capricorn) for partnerships (7th) in a spirit of generosity (jupiter)? I don't see it happening in my life. Also I read and believe that the sun's position shows where we struggle to achieve, consciously. At the cusp of the 7th do I struggle with partnerships? No more than normal, I think - its more to do with my saturn opp venus by which any kind of relationship does have a difficult quality.
I think the NN in Capricorn is pointing to a disciplined destiny. One of the devout. I'd say that Jupiter only expands this here. You may find your relationships/partnerships revolve around this but I'm unsure since NN in Cap tends to be more solitary.

I'm uncertain of the significance of the Sun conjunct the descendant (opp asc). I did find it interesting. I'm speculating that it has to do with an uncertainty of how to operate in the world which is why you may have felt the need to try to follow a normal path before realizing that wasn't for you. Here's a link:
http://www.cafeastrology.com/natal/sunascendantaspects.html
 

sandstone

Banned
greybeard,

consider relocation astrology.. it is based on what you appear to be negating in your comments to poyi. jim lewis had a lot of valuable insights to offer astrology to such a degree there are many who see much value in them. if you change the time you get a different chart.. if you change the place same thing. it doesn't over-ride the birth chart, but it is a useful chart for those who are living in a different location.. i would call it like a 4th year university course for astrologers.. if one is new to astrology work thru the first few layers before proceeding with relocation astrology..
 

greybeard

Well-known member
I thoroughly understand relocation charts. I was doing relocation charts long before Jim Lewis came along. They are not Birth Charts. The birth chart is yours even if you go live on Saturn. [deleted attacking comment - Moderator]
 
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sandstone

Banned
my recommendation for someone just starting out with astrology would be to concentrate on basics and forget about relocation astrology until much later in the learning curve..
 

SniperBomber328

Well-known member
SniperBomber328,

What, other than the opinions of other astrologers, has lead you to believe that the twelfth house is a house of self-destruction?


Sorry for such a late response Reverie, I have not had the time to log onto Astro Comm. for a while. Nonetheless, the reason I have stated the 12th House is of "self-destruction" is because of the usual tendencies the 12th house imposes on the native. It is called the house of "self-undoing" for a reason, and not in the 'positive' or 'spiritual' sort of way.

It's the house of prisons, hospitals, institiutions, graveyards, monasteries, etc. The things people end up doing to themselves which cause harm to either the self (native) or to others. Which is why I said that the malefics (specifically Saturn) could joy here, since the 12th dimminishes the 'malefic tendencies' that saturn can impose on the native, although it increases the harm that it does to others.

Also the reason I stated why Jupiter and Venus are not so bad being here (aside from the fact that Jupiter co-signifies the 12th House and Venus Joy's here) since they technically do not harm the native or others, from what I've read.

IMO, what MSO has stated about the A=B=C statement, and correct me if I'm wrong, is the same meaning of 1st=Mars=Aries formula. Which isn't true. Which is the point I think he was trying to make, when he/she (sorry I don't know) was stating that the 12th isn't about 'spirituality', simply because Pisces denotates this archetype. The 12th cannot be about spirituality, because it is already goverened by the 9th house (in trad. astrology). Jupiter=/=12th=/=Pisces. Although it has been stated several times, that the planets still find co-significance in the houses corresponding to their sign number division (if that makes sense).
 
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Carris

Well-known member
Sorry for such a late response Reverie, I have not had the time to log onto Astro Comm. for a while. Nonetheless, the reason I have stated the 12th House is of "self-destruction" is because of the usual tendencies the 12th house imposes on the native. It is called the house of "self-undoing" for a reason, and not in the 'positive' or 'spiritual' sort of way.

It's the house of prisons, hospitals, institiutions, graveyards, monasteries, etc. The things people end up doing to themselves which cause harm to either the self (native) or to others. Which is why I said that the malefics (specifically Saturn) could joy here, since the 12th dimminishes the 'malefic tendencies' that saturn can impose on the native, although it increases the harm that it does to others.

Also the reason I stated why Jupiter and Venus are not so bad being here (aside from the fact that Jupiter co-signifies the 12th House and Venus Joy's here) since they technically do not harm the native or others, from what I've read.

IMO, what MSO has stated about the A=B=C statement, and correct me if I'm wrong, is the same meaning of 1st=Mars=Aries formula. Which isn't true. Which is the point I think he was trying to make, when he/she (sorry I don't know) was stating that the 12th isn't about 'spirituality', simply because Pisces denotates this archetype. The 12th cannot be about spirituality, because it is already goverened by the 9th house (in trad. astrology). Jupiter=/=12th=/=Pisces. Although it has been stated several times, that the planets still find co-significance in the houses corresponding to their sign number division (if that makes sense).
Sniperbomber

The 9th is about philosophy, not spirituality. Philosophy does not recognize the fact that we are souls/spirits - it is focussed on the human condition. Spirituality, on the hand, recognizes that we are primarily souls/spirits who incarnate as humans on earth many times - so it doesn't make sense to worry too much about the human condition.

And I'm speaking from PERSONAL experience when I say that all my interest is now focussed towards spirituality - I really don't feel interested in other things anymore. Also, introspection and study do require solitude to concentrate.

And in many people with significant 12th houses, I have not seen any of the negative characteristics attributed to the 12th. We can't go by astrological "research" and "observations" of the dark ages anymore. If I had lived in the dark ages, I too would have a faced a very negative outcome by trying to pursue real spiritual knowledge (not to be confused with religion or church). I would probably have been imprisoned, hospitalized, burnt as witch, ended up in a monastery or worse.

In the 12th, we realize the spiritual truth that Everything Is One, Everything Is God, and god is All There Is (as you can see this has nothing to do with philosophy or religion of the 9th). We can see the Oneness of all creation - so there is no scope of wanting to hurt or harm anyone or anything - this knowledge automatically brings love, compassion, forgiveness, patience, tolerance, etc - maybe that is why the person prefers to self-destruct rather than be party to the corruption on earth. Once we realize this spiritual knowledge our work on earth is complete and there is often no need to reincarnate anymore - thats probably why they call it the house of moksha or nirvana in vedic astrology.

The sun in 12th feels this spirituality as its natural self. Whereas, saturn thrashes you black and blue till you see this spirituality.

If the 12th is not prominent in your chart, that means that you are not yet ready to realize this spiritual knowledge - you have many more lifetimes to complete on earth and many other lessons to learn before you attain moksha/nirvana and "merge" (loss of identity as a separate individual) with the divine once again.
 
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Anachiel

Well-known member
In traditional and ancient astrology, the 9th is the House of God. There really wasn't a word for what today we call "spirituality". In fact, some cultures that were into astrology did not share our common theme of "afterlife", "heaven" or even "spirit" as we modernly conceive of it.

The 12th, traditionally, did not have an association with spirits. The closest attribution would be witchcraft which, by today's standards, would be similar to treason or a heretic or possibly an outcast or insane person. It would not equate with what today we call witchcraft with it's beneign Goddess worshiping adherants.

The reason the 12th house, like the 2nd, 6th and 8th houses, was considered "bad" was because it could not cast a perfect aspect to the 1st house or, Ascendant. The same with the 2nd, 6th and 8th houses. They too cannot cast perfect aspects to the Ascendant and, therefore, became injurious to the Ascendant. Matters that these houses rule are "hidden" because of this; things such as 12th = imprisonment, 8th = death, 6th = illness, 2nd = plutocracy, money, material and moveable goods.

So, on one hand you have a planet that is rising and think, "why is the 12th all that bad?" However, it is "bad" because, like the 8th, even though planets in it are visible, they cannot aspect the Ascendant in any helpful manner and are therefore injurious.

I hope that helps, somewhat, with the traditional views behind why the 12th is the 12th. :)

Also, not all Planets act the same in each house. For example, Jupiter in the 2nd might be considered fortunate but, the Sun in the same place can consume your resources. Saturn in the 12th might joy there being very adept with limitations, but the Moon might find herself cramped in style and expression in the 12th, particularly if she has no dignity or is weak.
 
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gen6k

Well-known member
Some people say that the 12th cant really be pinned down because of its anti-thetical partition on the self.

I would personally see it as some organic dionysiac collective unconscious. What are the real *motivations*, not in the psychological scorpionic sense, but in the inherent surmise of a specific event. Its really just energy taking its turn somewhere.

Its not how one would explain something from a Saturnine standpoint. But if someone had saturn in the 12th, which signifies organized ambition, maybe their socio-linear track could feel imprisioned outside of it.

I have Mars and Chiron in the 12th in Gemini. I can see its immense healing potential, and its immense destructive potential. The mars is in oppositions with Uranus, Neptune, Saturn in the 6th.

That is probably why Monastaries (clergymen) and (prisoners) are both part of this group, its more of a force rather than an attribute. In a way the prisoner understands the clergymen in a fashion that ordinary people can't.
 

sandstone

Banned
'evil spirit' is a term used by paulus to refer to the 12th house.. paulus is an old astrology writer.. let me quote page 118 from dorian gieseler greenbaum translation in a book called : late classical astrology: paulus alexandrinus and olympoidorus

"the 12th place which we will address as evil spirit and pre ascension of the horoskopos, which is a decline, signifies the reckoning about sufferings, childbirth, enemies, and male slaves, in relation to the stars which are in it, since only kronos rejoices in it."

it goes on, but this ought to give one enough of an idea to know how confusing things can get with astrology and different authors down thru history giving different perspectives on it all not that it is my intent to confuse..
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
gen6k, "Kronos" is an ancient name that means "Saturn" and two thousand years ago, astrologer Vettius Valens said that Saturn rejoices in the 12th house and Mars rejoices in the 6th house, Vettius Valens "Anthology" has been translated from Ancient Greek by professor Riley who has provided it free online in pdf form at this link http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf

More recently Andrea Gehrz has also published her first translation of the first book of Valens
http://www.moirapress.org/Site/Moira_Press.html :smile:

Its not how one would explain something from a Saturnine standpoint. But if someone had saturn in the 12th, which signifies organized ambition, maybe their socio-linear track could feel imprisioned outside of it.

I have Mars and Chiron in the 12th in Gemini. I can see its immense healing potential, and its immense destructive potential. The mars is in oppositions with Uranus, Neptune, Saturn in the 6th.


That is probably why Monastaries (clergymen) and (prisoners) are both part of this group, its more of a force rather than an attribute. In a way the prisoner understands the clergymen in a fashion that ordinary people can't.
 
I have a 12th Saturn, and I feel it makes me a very grounded person.
And I am very good when the **** hits the fan, as far as Saturn's "joy"
 
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RaptInReverie

Well-known member
Sorry for such a late response Reverie, I have not had the time to log onto Astro Comm. for a while. Nonetheless, the reason I have stated the 12th House is of "self-destruction" is because of the usual tendencies the 12th house imposes on the native. It is called the house of "self-undoing" for a reason, and not in the 'positive' or 'spiritual' sort of way.

It's the house of prisons, hospitals, institiutions, graveyards, monasteries, etc. The things people end up doing to themselves which cause harm to either the self (native) or to others. Which is why I said that the malefics (specifically Saturn) could joy here, since the 12th dimminishes the 'malefic tendencies' that saturn can impose on the native, although it increases the harm that it does to others.

Also the reason I stated why Jupiter and Venus are not so bad being here (aside from the fact that Jupiter co-signifies the 12th House and Venus Joy's here) since they technically do not harm the native or others, from what I've read.

IMO, what MSO has stated about the A=B=C statement, and correct me if I'm wrong, is the same meaning of 1st=Mars=Aries formula. Which isn't true. Which is the point I think he was trying to make, when he/she (sorry I don't know) was stating that the 12th isn't about 'spirituality', simply because Pisces denotates this archetype. The 12th cannot be about spirituality, because it is already goverened by the 9th house (in trad. astrology). Jupiter=/=12th=/=Pisces. Although it has been stated several times, that the planets still find co-significance in the houses corresponding to their sign number division (if that makes sense).

You have not answered the original question I proposed: Why, without considering any one else's opinions, do you believe that the twelfth house is akin to sorrow and self-destruction? Your entire argument is based upon this premise, yet you haven't supported it with a satisfactory theoretical explanation or evidence obtained from your own practical application of astrology. We can not ascertain anything about planets here until we first establish an intrinsic definition of this house--one that isn't paradoxical or inapplicable.

The accusation of me making an A=B=C statement was due to another member misconstruing my post. The exact words I used were "corresponds to", which does not necessarily mean "equivalent to". I certainly do not believe that the signs are "equivalent to" the houses, but I do recognize correspondences between the two.
 

waybread

Well-known member
If anyone wonders about the history of astrologers' pronouncements about the 12th (or other) house, I highly recommend Deborah Houlding's book, Houses: Temples of the Sky. The 12th had a terrible reputation in antiquity.

For anyone unfamiliar with Houlding, she is a well-known traditional astrologer and owner of the Skyscript traditional astrology forum.
 
I know I'm coming in late here, but I really feel the 12th house only lives up to it's horrid reputation when the native refuses to transcend the ego. If you can serve, you won't suffer...

But I guess to many, to serve IS to suffer. Go figure.
 
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