Can You Really Predict Death?

waybread

Well-known member
In case anyone is interested, there are several non-astrological death-clock sites on line, some more detailed than others. They'll ask about your body mass index, age, lifestyle, &c and then give you your dead-date. I don't know what they're based on-- actuarial tables, perhaps. I tried one once that predicted that I was already dead, and then did one yesterday that gave me about 9 more years.

In the meantime, I'll just try to live the best life I can for as long as I can.

[deleted response to attacking comments - Moderator]
 
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waybread

Well-known member
[deleted quote of attacking post - Moderator]

Can we agree that neither one of us has ever claimed that Vedic death predictions are highly accurate?

Can we agree that some astrologers were wrong about death prediction because their clients "jumped the gun"? The point here is not about a margin of error, or "anyone can make a mistake." The point is, that if your death prediction were legitimate, but you didn't like your prediction of the timing and manner of your death, you couldn't just buck your fate and commit suicide earlier. If prediction were legitimate, your volitional change of time and date wouldn't be possible. By committing suicide, these men actually did the ultimate test of death prediction's reliability as the mouthpiece of fate, and proved it lacking. For want of a better term, I'd suggest the suicides demonstrated some power of free will.

When astrologers publicly make mistakes about a presidential election outcome, they have some choices. (1) stop predicting. (2) learn from their mistakes and improve their techniques, or (3) continue to use the same methods and hope they strike it lucky next time. One thing I learned from the 2016 election was that a common method in use to predict election outcomes (Aries ingress chart in mundane astrology) seems to be designed for a parliamentary system, not the US system of the presidency determined by the Electoral College. And that one astrologer who used primary directions (vs. the more common transits, progressions) to predict Trump's victory was the one who got it right.

While I proudly plead guilty to having a sense of ethics, the mainstream ethical codes on prediction in astrology are not mine. Several major astrological associations like ISAR and NCGR have codes of ethics, that require their members to qualify predictions and to avoid frightening clients. These codes are on line. Maybe you are familiar with them.

While they do not specifically prohibit their members from predicting death, they contain statements like, "Never needlessly frighten a client with extreme predictions, nor create false hopes in a client, and always affirm that every astrological configuration can manifest in a variety of ways." http://www.isarastrology.org/images/EthicsV5.pdf Which becomes problematic for death prediction, if you cannot say whether someone will die at a critical time or merely experience a health problem Big, big difference.

This is not just a "should you?" statement, but it is a "can you?" statement, because ISAR hereby disposes of the highly fatalistic approach to astrological prediction. Basically you shouldn't because you cannot.

Astrodienst, which is probably the largest global on-line astrology forum, prohibits death prediction.

In a free country, people can ask an astrologer whatever they want. It is up to the astrologer to decide whether to answer a particular question. I am entitled to express an opinion on astrological death prediction as a dubious type of fortune-telling, equally.

But surely you are not suggesting that if an astrologer is utterly inexperienced or makes frequent wrong predictions that s/he should be in the business of death prediction?

I've explained my views on prediction generally in a recent post. I believe you misinterpreted them.

Just because some patients want to know how long they have to live, does not mean that astrological prediction is thereby a good idea. Part of the problem, as I've explained above, is that different methods give different results.

I'm still waiting to see your own methods. If you feel so strongly that death prediction is viable, I would expect to see your choice of method and evidence.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Exactly.

Predictions are made all the time. On the stock market,
marriage dates, winning the lottery, etc..

Question is: how accurate are the predictions?


Unless one has personal data from every astrologer and their clients who actually asked for a death prediction (probably not too many) we will never
know how accurate death predictions are.

If I were to pay a professional astrologer, stock broker or marriage counseler for a prediction, I'd expect some degree of accuracy in their advice.

Actually, statistics are often used with small samples to predict outcomes. You do not have to look at the entire population of instances. Statistically, it is possible to determine your odds of winning the lottery.

Trouble is, statistics have not been notably supportive in validating astrology's truth claims.
 

muchacho

Well-known member
How is the Western astrology different from Vedic astrology in the prediction methods?
Vedic heavily relies on Dashas and divisional charts. Something you won't find in modern western astrology at all and only in a rudimentary way in traditional western astrology. They all use transits and aspects, although transits and aspects would be the last thing you would look at from the vedic point of view but it's usually the first thing you would look at from a modern western point of view. Another widely used method in vedic astrology is the turning of the chart, e.g. you use the Moon or the Dasha lord as the Ascendant and read the chart from there. That method exists in traditional western astrology as well but I don't really see it used in modern western astrology. So in vedic astrology you don't have just one chart to look at, you always have several charts.
 

blackbery

Well-known member
Death predictions are between an astrologer and a client, not a person's morality, ethics, or fears.

And if you ever been wrong about predicting anything in a chart, giving the wrong answer about anything, then please take your own advice. In other words, quit looking at charts unless you know 100% certainty that what you
tell a person is the ABSOLUTE truth and nothing but the TRUTH. If you can't do that, perhaps astrology is not for you. Your need to impose censorship on a practice that is always being criticized, scrutinized,
condemned by the world is hardly progressive. Where is the criticism for the 'experts' who never predicted the crash of 2008 and they
are still out there giving advice and making millions with their consulting fees. When the next crash happens and nobody is warned,
should those financial and stock market experts quit their jobs?
Astrology is an art-form.

And if you think you know what is said between an astrologer and a client,
I can assure you that they discuss all sorts of things including death, sex,
money, etc. Yet, you want to censor what can and cannot be said about
an astrologer and their client.

As others/I have pointed out but you just ignore, not many people are likely to seriously ask about death predictions simply
because it may be too painful to consider. But for those that do, there is a reason for their questioning.

Well, good thing Astrology Weekly Forum allows talk of death predictions.

[deleted attacking comments - Moderator]



:sad::innocent::happy:










[deleted quote of attacking comment - Moderator]

Can we agree that neither one of us has ever claimed that Vedic death predictions are highly accurate?

Can we agree that some astrologers were wrong about death prediction because their clients "jumped the gun"? The point here is not about a margin of error, or "anyone can make a mistake." The point is, that if your death prediction were legitimate, but you didn't like your prediction of the timing and manner of your death, you couldn't just buck your fate and commit suicide earlier. If prediction were legitimate, your volitional change of time and date wouldn't be possible. By committing suicide, these men actually did the ultimate test of death prediction's reliability as the mouthpiece of fate, and proved it lacking. For want of a better term, I'd suggest the suicides demonstrated some power of free will.

When astrologers publicly make mistakes about a presidential election outcome, they have some choices. (1) stop predicting. (2) learn from their mistakes and improve their techniques, or (3) continue to use the same methods and hope they strike it lucky next time.
One thing I learned from the 2016 election was that a common method in use to predict election outcomes (Aries ingress chart in mundane astrology) seems to be designed for a parliamentary system, not the US system of the presidency determined by the Electoral College. And that one astrologer who used primary directions (vs. the more common transits, progressions) to predict Trump's victory was the one who got it right.

While I proudly plead guilty to having a sense of ethics, the mainstream ethical codes on prediction in astrology are not mine. Several major astrological associations like ISAR and NCGR have codes of ethics, that require their members to qualify predictions and to avoid frightening clients. These codes are on line. Maybe you are familiar with them.

While they do not specifically prohibit their members from predicting death, they contain statements like, "Never needlessly frighten a client with extreme predictions, nor create false hopes in a client, and always affirm that every astrological configuration can manifest in a variety of ways." http://www.isarastrology.org/images/EthicsV5.pdf Which becomes problematic for death prediction, if you cannot say whether someone will die at a critical time or merely experience a health problem Big, big difference.

This is not just a "should you?" statement, but it is a "can you?" statement, because ISAR hereby disposes of the highly fatalistic approach to astrological prediction. Basically you shouldn't because you cannot.

Astrodienst, which is probably the largest global on-line astrology forum, prohibits death prediction.

In a free country, people can ask an astrologer whatever they want. It is up to the astrologer to decide whether to answer a particular question. I am entitled to express an opinion on astrological death prediction as a dubious type of fortune-telling, equally.

But surely you are not suggesting that if an astrologer is utterly inexperienced or makes frequent wrong predictions that s/he should be in the business of death prediction?

I've explained my views on prediction generally in a recent post. I believe you misinterpreted them.

Just because some patients want to know how long they have to live, does not mean that astrological prediction is thereby a good idea. Part of the problem, as I've explained above, is that different methods give different results.

I'm still waiting to see your own methods. If you feel so strongly that death prediction is viable, I would expect to see your choice of method and evidence.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Death predictions are between an astrologer and a client, not a person's morality, ethics, or fears.

And if you ever been wrong about predicting anything in a chart, giving the wrong answer about anything, then please take your own advice. In other words, quit looking at charts unless you know 100% certainty that what you
tell a person is the ABSOLUTE truth and nothing but the TRUTH. If you can't do that, perhaps astrology is not for you. Your need to impose censorship on a practice that is always being criticized, scrutinized,
condemned by the world is hardly progressive. Where is the criticism for the 'experts' who never predicted the crash of 2008 and they
are still out there giving advice and making millions with their consulting fees. When the next crash happens and nobody is warned,
should those financial and stock market experts quit their jobs?
Astrology is an art-form.

And if you think you know what is said between an astrologer and a client,
I can assure you that they discuss all sorts of things including death, sex,
money, etc. Yet, you want to censor what can and cannot be said about
an astrologer and their client.

As others/I have pointed out but you just ignore, not many people are likely to seriously ask about death predictions simply
because it may be too painful to consider. But for those that do, there is a reason for their questioning.

Well, good thing Astrology Weekly Forum allows talk of death predictions.

[deleted attacking comments - Moderator]



:sad::innocent::happy:

Blackbery, if you follow my chart readings, normally I insert qualifiers. Typically I don't give absolute predictions. I might post something like, "May looks like a good month to star a new relationship." Or "the missing cat has probably gone off in a northwesterly direction." Or "Your stomach seems to need professional medical attention."

As in the ISAR and NCGR codes of ethics, I generally have in mind that we cannot promise 100% accuracy.

If you'd like me to criticize mundane astrologers who make horribly misguided financial or political forecasts, I can do that. And have done so, on occasion.

[deleted response to attacking remarks - Moderator]

A charge of censorship carries no weight. I haven't censored anybody on this forum. Only the mods can do that in deleting or editing posts. I have disagreed with your opinions, which is allowed.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Re: Can an astrologer predict his own death?

An interesting article by Anthony Louise in his Astrology & Tarot blog.

https://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2012/01/08/can-an-astrologer-predict-his-own-death/

Right, and you will find other examples of this nature. My personal feeling is that some people are prescient or have "second sight" and that some of these people are astrologers. Because there does not seem to be any consistent kind of methodology. See, for example, Alice Portman's methods, which are different and a lot more complicated. http://aliceportman.com/determining-death-from-a-horoscope/ Richard Houck wrote an entire book on the subject, and grossly miscalculated the timing and manner of his own death. Nobody seems to agree on the correct methods, which would give different outcomes.

Anthony Louis, in your link, wrote about C. E. O. Carter,the famed British astrologer, who predicted in 1939 that World War II wouldn't happen. http://leephd.blogspot.ca/2013_07_01_archive.html (second article)

Oops.

So let me ask you-all, based on the type of OP we see occasionally. A woman feels some pain and a lump in her breast. She can't get to the doctor till next week, and is terrified of terminal breast cancer. She wants to know if she has terminal breast cancer, and a prognosis.

In a general way, how would you go about answering her question?

Because if you cannot sketch out your methods, then it's sort of talking through your hat to argue in favour of death prediction. I wonder why I have had no takers on the two charts I posted for your perusal.

Which brings up another question. Is it one thing for a client to consult privately with an experienced professional astrologer, vs. Amateur Hour on an Internet astrology forum? (Hint: one young man who posted here several years ago had been told by a "friend" that his moon progressing into the 8th house meant his mother was going to die.)

Please keep in mind that just because the prospect of an immanent death metaphysically doesn't scare the bejeezus out of you, does not mean someone else who posts isn't terrified.
 

Senecar

Well-known member
Re: Can an astrologer predict his own death?

Richard Houck wrote an entire book on the subject, and grossly miscalculated the timing and manner of his own death. Nobody seems to agree on the correct methods, which would give different outcomes.

Anthony Louis, in your link, wrote about C. E. O. Carter,the famed British astrologer, who predicted in 1939 that World War II wouldn't happen. http://leephd.blogspot.ca/2013_07_01_archive.html (second article)

Oops.

As JA pointed out in his previous post, some astrologers getting their prediction wrong doesn't mean that the prediction is not possible.

The Houk's book is now very hard to find and expensive by the way, as it is a classic OOP. I would not mind getting hold of a copy for the studies myself, if it were available for reasonable price.

So let me ask you-all, based on the type of OP we see occasionally. A woman feels some pain and a lump in her breast. She can't get to the doctor till next week, and is terrified of terminal breast cancer. She wants to know if she has terminal breast cancer, and a prognosis.

In a general way, how would you go about answering her question?

I don't think anyone would come and ask such a question to someone who started reading astrology for about 3 months. I am only a student. :)

Or even if were I a 40 year experienced professional astrologer, it would be out of question, as each and every case is different. Some situation, it would be a help, but in others would not. No one can answer that kind question in generalised fashion.

Because if you cannot sketch out your methods, then it's sort of talking through your hat to argue in favour of death prediction. I wonder why I have had no takers on the two charts I posted for your perusal.

Which brings up another question. Is it one thing for a client to consult privately with an experienced professional astrologer, vs. Amateur Hour on an Internet astrology forum? (Hint: one young man who posted here several years ago had been told by a "friend" that his moon progressing into the 8th house meant his mother was going to die.)

Please keep in mind that just because the prospect of an immanent death metaphysically doesn't scare the bejeezus out of you, does not mean someone else who posts isn't terrified.


Our aim is not trying to argue whether it would be unethical or too upset even to imagine about the death prediction, but the aim is to try finding out which methods of the prediction were more accurate than others, or if it is indeed proved as not accurate at all, then conclude as such.
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Re: Can an astrologer predict his own death?

.....

I don't think anyone would come and ask such a question to someone who started reading astrology for about 3 months. I am only a student. :)

You'll see requests for death prediction here and at Astrodienst, although the latter forum shuts them down as in violation of their forum rules. Querents often know no astrology, or just enough astrology to get seriously misled. If someone asks for a death prediction on this forum, s/he could easily get uninformed replies from people who know little to no astrology, or whose bedside manner is rude. I've seen this happen.

Our aim is not trying to argue whether it would be unethical or too upset even to imagine about the death prediction, but the aim is to try finding out which methods of the prediction were more accurate than others, or if it is indeed proved as not accurate at all, then conclude as such.

I think I've addressed this question in previous posts.

Blackbery, if you're convinced that accurate death prediction is possible with a high degree of accuracy and few errors, would you kindly post your methods, with a worked out example? Others would like to see your methods.
 
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blackbery

Well-known member
Re: Can an astrologer predict his own death?

Ummmm. No method here. That's what this thread is all about.
Whether death can be predicted and what is the best method. Never claimed to be an expert on anything here!:lol:

It is ascertained that death certainly can be predicted as some astrologers have already done it. So the proof is already in the pudding.

What how they did it is another matter. And how many clients have asked for death predictions is private and we don't know the answer to that. It would probably be a very small majority as most people want to know more mundane events such as marriage, kids, etc.

Did you read any of the links? I am ploughing through the one posted by JA and read the others which were rather fascinating.

:innocent::innocent::innocent:


\

Blackbery, if you're convinced that accurate death prediction is possible with a high degree of accuracy and few errors, would you kindly post your methods, with a worked out example? Others would like to see your methods
.
 
Sure. Anything can be predicted. But our lives, much like the complex system of weather, are nearly impossible to foretell with great accuracy far beyond the present day.

Is it predetermined or constantly changing? I personally believe the latter but it actually doesn't matter because as far as humans' knowledge goes it might as well be the latter.

Astrology tells us what the metaphysical energies were/are/will be at a given time. It doesn't tell us for sure how we will react (Again, taking the free-will route). Possibilities . . . of which there are many.

I think that the most likely cause of death can be delineated but we don't always take the most likely path. Further, as we approach our deaths, I believe a skilled astrologer can see major events in the transits. Eventually, death becomes the obvious one.

But an infant who is not on the brink of SIDS or some other tragic death? No, I think it would it would be impossible to accurately predict time and cause of death with any precision.

Based on my chart, I believe I will have a heart attack in my sleep someday when quite old. Sadly, as soon as the truth reveals itself, I will not be here to verify my inklings.
 

blackbery

Well-known member
For those who are not offended by the discussion of death predictions, what do you think of Arabian 'Lots', particularly the Part of Death? Of course, death can mean transformation but it could also signify physical death just as in the Tarot. Isn't it true that you must have the exact time of birth to calculate these lots. My time is not really known, within an hour so not sure if the lots can be calculated in my chart.

Here's an interesting article.

https://beyondthestarsastrology.wor...h-charon-discussing-the-arabic-part-of-death/
 

waybread

Well-known member
For those who are not offended by the discussion of death predictions, what do you think of Arabian 'Lots', particularly the Part of Death? Of course, death can mean transformation but it could also signify physical death just as in the Tarot. Isn't it true that you must have the exact time of birth to calculate these lots. My time is not really known, within an hour so not sure if the lots can be calculated in my chart.

Here's an interesting article.

https://beyondthestarsastrology.wor...h-charon-discussing-the-arabic-part-of-death/

Here's an Arabic parts calculator: http://libracentre.com/arabic_parts_chart.php

The part of death is the degrees of the ascendant, plus the cusp of the 8th house, minus the moon.

Trouble is, even if you know your birth time down to the minute, the degree of the 8th house cusp will vary depending upon which house system you use. Stick to whole signs, and it will invariably be zero. Use equal houses, and it will be the same degree as your ascendant, allowing for the difference in signs. (For example, in a 360-degree zodiac, Aries=0 to 30 degrees, so 23 degrees Aries=23 degrees. Leo=120 to 150 degrees, so 23 degrees Leo=143 degrees.) The quadrant house systems like Placidus can give really different degree cusps. (You can check out your chart using different house systems at Astrodienst.) At high northern latitudes (like Scotland and Scandinavia) the house cusps can get really skewed.

So determining the Arabic part of death becomes a real can of worms.

So here again you run into difficulty.

Then interpreting the manner of death gets problematic. I ran the calculation on my chart just now using Placidus, and the part of death is in my 9th house. Does this mean I will die overseas? At home while reading a philosophy book? In a house of worship? On a university campus? I could look at my 9th house cusp ruler for more info, but then it is going to vary depending upon the house system I select.

Also, I am astonished at anyone who insists that death prediction is legitimate despite having no experience in working out the formulas with real charts, and with significant evidence of times when it just hasn't worked. I don't know what odds someone would expect in most transactions of daily life, but I doubt that death prediction would measure up to them.

So blackbery, it's not a question of anyone feeling "offended" by death prediction in some kind of emotional sense. From a purely objective, technical point of view, some of us just do not find the accuracy of death prediction, and the plethora of methods giving different results, sufficiently compelling to justify it.

Again, death is not like graduating from high school or starting a new job. For most people it has all kinds of serious medical, emotional, and financial involvements that you don't find to the same degree with other life events.

I believe, or at least hope, that my metaphysical views will carry me with some calm and courage through my final moments (assuming I'm even conscious then.)
 

waybread

Well-known member
Dr. Farr: in whole signs, the house cusp is at zero degrees of the sign. In equal house, the cusp of each house is the same as the ascendant. Both of these house systems give exact 30-degree houses, unlike quadrant house systems such as Placidus.

If you think I'm mistaken, please contact Astrodienst! Their free charts pages give whole signs house cusps as zero degrees of each sign.

Here is one example. I chose a far north horoscope of a former Finnish prime minister to show how far nothern latitudes give us further problems with calculating house cusps, as his MC is now in the 12th house. He was born close to the Arctic Circle. I've followed it with this man's chart in Placidus, showing the difficulties of finding the "real" 8th house cusp, notably for people born at high latitudes.
 

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