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  #176  
Unread 12-14-2011, 10:53 PM
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Re: Intelligence

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Originally Posted by twelthnight View Post
Yes. Whenever I apply myself like in school or business or the arts, I have found success. I can do a lot of mental work, and I can teach myself very well whatever I am interested in, but my mind is kind of upredictable. I have Uranus in the 3rd...not great for consistent expression of what my mind is capable of at it's best. I think pinpointing intelligence in a chart is kind of insane. What type of intelligence, and for what purpose? Also, a lot of placements and aspects that usually create very strong minds also sometimes produce quite slow thinking. Einstein had merc conjunct saturn...that can be a genius aspect, but it can also indicate mental disabilities and huge fear around expressing intellect.

i'm having alot of fun with this topic and you seemed so witty with great sense of humor, I bet . I started laughing when you said "whenever I am interestered in, but my mind is kind of unpredictable." The funny thing is that I am the same way . Really, I think in college I did the worst on topics that held no interest or when I would hear the lesson and say "I know that" then I would just not pay any attention. Totally, you get all these ideas which some are pertty good, but for me I get lazy and then I just do not want to follow thru.. Glad to know others feel the same on certain levels.

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  #177  
Unread 12-14-2011, 10:54 PM
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Re: Intelligence

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Originally Posted by Frank View Post
Here's an article I put together rather quickly based on a lecture on research into Mensa-level intelligence:

http://www.proastrologer.com/Annoyin...%20article.htm
Frank, I'm not sure if it's mentioned in the article, and I'm not seeing it... but which house system did you use for this?
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  #178  
Unread 12-15-2011, 12:10 AM
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Re: Intelligence

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Originally Posted by Moog View Post
Frank, I'm not sure if it's mentioned in the article, and I'm not seeing it... but which house system did you use for this?
Good question Moog, also, I was sparked up to notice Frank has his own take on the outers. There seems to be a growing middle way between modern and traditional, there are quite a few astrologers on here who accept the usage of outers but not as rulers. Is there any terms for this?

(correct me if I've described your belief set incorrectly, Frank)
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  #179  
Unread 12-15-2011, 12:55 AM
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Re: Intelligence

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Originally Posted by byjove View Post
There seems to be a growing middle way between modern and traditional, there are quite a few astrologers on here who accept the usage of outers but not as rulers. Is there any terms for this?
From what I've read, that was actually done for a long time between when they were discovered and when astrology was basically popularized. There are a couple of sites that come to mind which I can't find at the moment, one with a Vedic astrologer mentioning the effects of the combustion of Uranus, the other giving descriptions of rising signs with "Saturn gives the same qualities to the Aquarian..." with a mention of what Uranus and Neptune do when prominent.
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  #180  
Unread 12-16-2011, 12:59 PM
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Re: Intelligence

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Originally Posted by twelthnight View Post
Thanks! Or are you being sarcastic (which is fine, lol, most Virgos are a little too "helpful" from time to time-me included ).
No not at all, no sarcasm..
And i like virgos, virgo ascendants,... My country is virgo, my husband is virgo and my favorite aunt is virgo
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  #181  
Unread 12-16-2011, 01:06 PM
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Re: Intelligence

I've heard that people with mercury in scorpio, or pluto related mercury - people are -let us not say dumb- but not from the very intelligent sort of people.
I did not dare to ask this to hear the truth, but now I just want to know..

Because I have Pluto in 3rd and Mercury (Aries) in 8th
Pluto opposite Sun and Mercury involved in T square with Moon and Mars/Neptune as focal point.

But I have to say that I'm happy not to have my Mercury in Taurus!
Slow and rigid mind...
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  #182  
Unread 12-16-2011, 01:30 PM
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Re: Intelligence

Personally, I am of the opinion that there are not better or worse kinds of intelligence just different styles and different applications.

Gemini Mercury is very geared towards social intelligence and communication... to me, they seem flighty, voluble and superficial, but that's perfect for 'gift of the gab' types. There are roles and rewards in society for people with that kind of mind.

Pisces intelligence seems to be deeper and more tidal, but if harnessed for deep philosophical insight, can be very powerful, as evinced by some of our greatest thinkers having mercury in it's so called 'Detriment'.

Of course, aspects and house placements modify how able (or not) we are at harnessing whichever latent power is in our sign placing of Mercury.

People always say I'm an intelligent person, but I'll never be in Mensa. I fail IQ tests High verbal IQ, but terrible on math and logic.

I have Mercury in Libra btw
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  #183  
Unread 12-16-2011, 01:31 PM
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Re: Intelligence

I meant to post this link, I found it interesting perhaps some of you will too:

http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/m...ong-intellect/
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  #184  
Unread 12-16-2011, 01:43 PM
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Re: Intelligence

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Originally Posted by Moog View Post
I meant to post this link, I found it interesting perhaps some of you will too:

http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/m...ong-intellect/
I just read about it.
Very interesting

"They seem to agree that Mer cury in a Car di nal sign indi cates an enthu si asm, fast grasp of things, and even skill in speech, while in a Fixed sign a deeper more seri ous search for truth and good advice is indi cated, both in con trast to Mer cury in a Com mon sign, which includes Virgo and Gem ini as well as Sagit tar ius and Pisces, and is indica tive of a small intel lect which is quick to anger and slow to under stand.* Addi tion ally, Abu Bakr, in a pas sage per tain ing to indi ca tions of quick ness to rage, noted Mer cury in one of his own domi ciles as an indi ca tion of insta bil ity.* These pas sages are sum ma rized*below."

Wow..

Last edited by fullmoonlibra; 12-16-2011 at 01:47 PM.
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  #185  
Unread 12-16-2011, 04:43 PM
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Re: Intelligence

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Originally Posted by Moog View Post
Personally, I am of the opinion that there are not better or worse kinds of intelligence just different styles and different applications.

Gemini Mercury is very geared towards social intelligence and communication... to me, they seem flighty, voluble and superficial, but that's perfect for 'gift of the gab' types. There are roles and rewards in society for people with that kind of mind.

Pisces intelligence seems to be deeper and more tidal, but if harnessed for deep philosophical insight, can be very powerful, as evinced by some of our greatest thinkers having mercury in it's so called 'Detriment'.

Of course, aspects and house placements modify how able (or not) we are at harnessing whichever latent power is in our sign placing of Mercury.

People always say I'm an intelligent person, but I'll never be in Mensa. I fail IQ tests High verbal IQ, but terrible on math and logic.

I have Mercury in Libra btw
I agree about different kinds of intelligence, I'm in awe of creative and social intelligence especially.

In reply to the interesting link that Frank put, I started the debate, what do these findings mean for Mercury in Pisces interpretations? I hate to say it but this forum is filled with attacks on M in P and there is plenty of nonsense like 'I've M in Virgo so I'm super intelligent' 3 kinds of ridiculous that is and shows a poor understanding of natal astrology. But how in the world can we run with the idea of double downfall: detriment and fall and then have results showing M in P natives rank very highly in IQ tests? (above all but one or two signs).

As for math, logic etc. as you were mentioning, that's interesting M in Libra and you rank highly on verbal IQ...I've M in Pisces and despite having studied several languages in school and college, I rank poorly in verbal and maths, but got 93% in logic. I wonder how we'd all fair if we did a study in here...
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  #186  
Unread 12-16-2011, 06:26 PM
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Re: Intelligence

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Originally Posted by byjove View Post
I agree about different kinds of intelligence, I'm in awe of creative and social intelligence especially.

In reply to the interesting link that Frank put, I started the debate, what do these findings mean for Mercury in Pisces interpretations? I hate to say it but this forum is filled with attacks on M in P and there is plenty of nonsense like 'I've M in Virgo so I'm super intelligent' 3 kinds of ridiculous that is and shows a poor understanding of natal astrology. But how in the world can we run with the idea of double downfall: detriment and fall and then have results showing M in P natives rank very highly in IQ tests? (above all but one or two signs).
I'm thinking that perhaps the culture of the times that gave rise to the astrologically schema we all know dictated that certain kinds of behaviour (and by extension, astrology) were better than others. Most cultures seem to elevate certain kinds of people as 'ideals'.

I think this requires more historical knowledge of astrology than I have. Who put this schema together in the first place, and what was their rationale behind it? This is something I don't know. And perhaps it's lost and unknowable, buried in history.

Quote:
As for math, logic etc. as you were mentioning, that's interesting M in Libra and you rank highly on verbal IQ...I've M in Pisces and despite having studied several languages in school and college, I rank poorly in verbal and maths, but got 93% in logic. I wonder how we'd all fair if we did a study in here...
Perhaps, put very simply, air sign Mercury symbolises intelligence that is verbally oriented. This makes sense to me, since the air triplicity is related to social exchange, and language is the means of communication.

I'd be keen to test and compare various things, maybe we could set up a group for testing various things and comparing charts with results?
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  #187  
Unread 12-16-2011, 07:24 PM
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Re: Intelligence

I'm a water Mercury me, yet did well on logic.

Tests and compare? I like it. It depends on what exactly we might like to test and how then to do it. We could do a poll-type thing and/either. We could do multiple questions. It depends how scientific we wanted it to be. If, just a simple who and what are you, a poll would be a very way to do it.

Very good point on different perspective on things in the past. I'm afraid that pops another question into my head. Given that, and the fact that in some very scientific research conducted by a member on here shows the fall and detriment location of Mercury tests well in IQ scores, I sense the need for wide debate on all of this!
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  #188  
Unread 12-16-2011, 09:13 PM
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Re: Intelligence

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Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian View Post
Are these peeps actually active in Mensa? That would be another variable.
No one seems to want to respond, but if I saw these tests results without knowing what they were for, I would say that they were for people who try to make themselves feel more intelligent by going and joining a group. Uranus rules people who break off from society and go form their own groups so they aren't lonely. The Sun trine Mars or Jupiter increases your confidence, and confidence is not something people who want to make themselves look smart out of low self-confidence have. Of course there are aspects involved, but Mercury in Pisces would probably feel less confident in their ability to get through the details. I don't consider Mercury to rule intellect. Mercury rules processing and getting through the details, and processing is obviously required to have some kind of intellect, but there are people with IQs in the 200s who haven't done anything significant for philosophy or science, or anything besides breaking records on IQ tests. Mercury is in detriment and fall in Pisces because Pisces does not care about the details or rote work one bit. Mercury and Venus combined rule any kind of speaking or writing including casual conversation and texting. Jupiter rules luck which develops into superstition then religion then philosophy then science. Saturn rules logic because logic is a set of rules. I have very unorthodox ideas (as I usually do on everything) about intelligence :P "Imagination is more important than knowledge" might have originally been meant to translate more into "originality is more important than rote ability," the latter of which I'd agree with. Literally, imagination is obviously not more important than knowledge because knowledge is power.

Last edited by Rebel Uranian; 12-16-2011 at 09:15 PM.
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  #189  
Unread 12-16-2011, 09:43 PM
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Re: Intelligence

While I'm sure that's another dimension, I don't think it's necessary. If you reach that level, you reach that level, I don't think you've anything more to prove. I still agree that there are many types of intelligences and the IQ test is just one ugly way. So many types we can't test well.

I don't remember who posted this link but it's great food for thought, do give it a go:

http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/m...ong-intellect/
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  #190  
Unread 12-16-2011, 10:21 PM
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Re: Intelligence

I'm sorry if I'm picking things apart too much:

Quote:
If you believe that Mer*cury, planet of intel*lect, must bode well for the intel*lect in its own domi*ciles, Gem*ini and Virgo, then you are mistaken.
Mercury is the planet of articulation, not intellect. Articulation is often counter-productive to intellect because too much articulation can stop one from asking questions about the big picture, which in turn makes one more lazy about developing intellect on a higher level. Also, I do not have beliefs. I have ideas which I rationally prove or disprove. I do not disbelieve things which I cannot prove or disprove, I just ignore them for the time being. I find it ridiculous that most people have to know, or have to think they know.

I find the bit about Mercury through the modalities very interesting. I found this absolutely fascinating:

Quote:
For those who don’t know, I use “dignity” for rulership, pertinence, and various qualitative considerations in my own astrological work, but I abhor the typical over-reliance on dignity in traditional circles for matters of strength and goodness of a planet, especially when it comes to the latter.
That, it's true, explains a lot. I wonder what the author of this does use...

Last edited by Rebel Uranian; 12-16-2011 at 10:23 PM.
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  #191  
Unread 12-17-2011, 08:23 PM
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Re: Intelligence

I've been wondering, what is the best sign for Mercury? I was initially going to say "definitely Capricorn" since Mercury in a Cardinal sign makes one exceedingly clever and Saturn experiences a Joy whenever Mercury is anywhere in Earth or Air, which would indirectly improve the condition of Mercury, but this would also apply to Aquarius which would have the advantage of being in the triplicity of Mercury (aka Air triplicity) by night. Libra is Cardinal and Aquarius is not, so it could also be Libra more than Aquarius. I'm just going to say Capricorn for the time being...
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  #192  
Unread 12-17-2011, 09:13 PM
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Re: Intelligence

I hope there won't be another M in Aqua argument lol

Well that link we've been talking about for a bit now from the previous page suggested anything that adds to Mercury's quick movement and changeability is not good for it, and that includes air and anything mutable. If we agree with that argument, then earth is definitely a good choice as is fixed. That looks like Virgo has a good shot.

Continuing with the new ideas I read from that astrologer said that Virgo adds stability to Mercury, but certainly has nothing to do with expansive intellect, frequently the opposite, and M in Gemini is far worse - air, mutable etc. The astrologer and researcher points to particular Egyptian and Hellenistic sources to open the debate on this. I'm glad, since as we've seen with the research member Frank put forward M in it's fall and detriment proved one of the most consistent high IQ scores.

I'm advocating debate and discussion, I have no particular axe to grind!
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  #193  
Unread 12-17-2011, 09:19 PM
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Re: Intelligence

I thought Mercury in Virgo is bad...

I think we should test the IQs of all the different Mercury signs. I don't think anyone has even remotely tested any signs besides the mutable ones and maybe Aquarius. I also think we should just look at the intellectual activity of all the different Mercury signs as well, because having an IQ doesn't mean you know how to use it. I still think Capricorn is the best sign for Mercury, especially if Air is bad for it.

Q: Is Mercury a malefic planet?

Last edited by Rebel Uranian; 12-17-2011 at 09:28 PM.
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  #194  
Unread 12-18-2011, 01:52 AM
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Re: Intelligence

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Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian View Post
Are these peeps actually active in Mensa? That would be another variable.
They are not all Mensa members - they merely have the requisite scores on relevant tests to be eligible for Mensa.
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  #195  
Unread 12-18-2011, 01:55 AM
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Re: Intelligence

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Originally Posted by byjove View Post
Also, what is an experimental and a control group? It's been a while since I did any of that and have lost all vocabulary on that kind of research.
The experimental group are those that qualify for Mensa. The control group is randomized, shuffled data using the same demographic information as the experimental group.
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  #196  
Unread 12-18-2011, 02:00 AM
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Re: Intelligence

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Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian View Post
No one seems to want to respond, but if I saw these tests results without knowing what they were for, I would say that they were for people who try to make themselves feel more intelligent by going and joining a group. Uranus rules people who break off from society and go form their own groups so they aren't lonely. The Sun trine Mars or Jupiter increases your confidence, and confidence is not something people who want to make themselves look smart out of low self-confidence have. Of course there are aspects involved, but Mercury in Pisces would probably feel less confident in their ability to get through the details. I don't consider Mercury to rule intellect. Mercury rules processing and getting through the details, and processing is obviously required to have some kind of intellect, but there are people with IQs in the 200s who haven't done anything significant for philosophy or science, or anything besides breaking records on IQ tests. Mercury is in detriment and fall in Pisces because Pisces does not care about the details or rote work one bit. Mercury and Venus combined rule any kind of speaking or writing including casual conversation and texting. Jupiter rules luck which develops into superstition then religion then philosophy then science. Saturn rules logic because logic is a set of rules. I have very unorthodox ideas (as I usually do on everything) about intelligence :P "Imagination is more important than knowledge" might have originally been meant to translate more into "originality is more important than rote ability," the latter of which I'd agree with. Literally, imagination is obviously not more important than knowledge because knowledge is power.
I'm sorry, but I don't have the time to respond instantly to every post.

As I said in the article, this is ONLY a test of the charts of those who qualify for Mensa - something measurable. You are placing your own psychological and value judgments while discounting the results of the study.
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Last edited by Frank; 12-18-2011 at 02:11 AM.
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  #197  
Unread 12-18-2011, 02:03 AM
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Re: Intelligence

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Originally Posted by Moog View Post
Frank, I'm not sure if it's mentioned in the article, and I'm not seeing it... but which house system did you use for this?
Regiomontanus was used for the study.
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Unread 12-18-2011, 02:21 AM
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Re: Intelligence

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Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian View Post
I thought Mercury in Virgo is bad...

I think we should test the IQs of all the different Mercury signs.
Mercury through the signs (cntl/exp/diff):

Aries 7.67 / 7.46 / 2.8
Taurus 6.08 / 7.49 / -18.7
Gemini 7.94 / 9.13 / -13.0
Cancer 7.67 / 7.65 / 0.3
Leo 6.35 / 7.80 / -18.6
Virgo 9.79 / 8.17 / 19.7
Libra 8.47 / 9.05 / -6.4
Scorpio 10.05 / 8.84 / 13.8
Sagittarius 6.88 / 8.28 / -16.9
Capricorn 11.11 / 9.58 / 16.0
Aquarius 7.94 / 8.31 / -4.5
Pisces 10.05 / 8.25 / 21.8
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Unread 12-18-2011, 02:31 AM
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Re: Intelligence

Frank, my mind keeps pressing the same question: what does this mean for our understanding of Mercury placements for e.g.? How could the fall and detriment of M have such results? Does that indicate we are likely misinterpreting something about dignity and debility? The forum is rife with attacks on Pisces Mercury, yet take a look at these scores (as just one example of intelligence assessment of course, how do we measure creativity etc. in this way).
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Unread 12-18-2011, 02:48 AM
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Re: Intelligence

Mercury is flitty like Air, and Air and Water are enemies. What is more Watery than Pisces to negate all that flightiness? I still don't understand how Virgo was higher than Capricorn. Someone needs to examine this experiment and also do some more experiments.

I'm still wondering if Mercury is a malefic. I bet it is and that's why Uranus is malefic and behaves the way it does. I mean, all the other malefics need to be "out of their element" in order to work right. Mars is nocturnal, Saturn is diurnal...

"Remember it's true, dignity is valuable
But our lives are valuable too"

Last edited by Rebel Uranian; 12-18-2011 at 03:05 AM.
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