Part Of Fortune & Condition of the Cusp ruler

[poyi]

Dear community

I saw a thread mentioned about aspects of POF and ruler's condition as well as POF's Almuten.

For example, POF in Cancer cusp ruler is Moon and Moon in Capricorn, then ruler of Capcriocorn is Saturn. Saturn in my natal conjunct Sun and Pluto in 2nd if using Placidus and in 3rd for whole sign.

The traditional ruler of my Scorpio Saturn is Mars, located in 1st house and trine Moon, ruler of the POF's cusp. And Venus conjunct Mars, also trine Moon. Both Mars and Moon has sextile with Mercury also. If we use modern rulership that would be Pluto for Scorpio and Saturn conjunct with this cusp ruler then. But I have Neptune square both Mars and Venus, for example even if I have material luck, I might not be a good saver!!!

I am wonder if I have got the right conception on how to examine the alumten for the POF's ruler. Generally speaking POF is the point of ascendant/Sun/Moon, in this case my Moon rules POF's cusp, then ruler of Capricorn Moon, Saturn conjunct Sun. Does it mean a good condition of POF in 11th house??

Thank you for reading and sharing your ideas

Po yi

[tsmall]

Originally Posted by poyi

Dear community

I saw a thread mentioned about aspects of POF and ruler's condition as well as POF's alumten.

For example, POF in Cancer cusp ruler is Moon and Moon in Capricorn, then ruler of Capcriocorn is Saturn. Saturn in my natal conjunct Sun and Pluto in 2nd if using Placidus and in 3rd for whole sign.

The traditional ruler of my Scorpio Saturn is Mars, located in 1st house and trine Moon, ruler of the POF's cusp. And Venus conjunct Mars, also trine Moon. Both Mars and Moon has sextile with Mercury also. If we use modern rulership that would be Pluto for Scorpio and Saturn conjunct with this cusp ruler then. But I have Neptune square both Mars and Venus, for example even if I have material luck, I might not be a good saver!!!

I am wonder if I have got the right conception on how to examine the alumten for the POF's ruler. Generally speaking POF is the point of ascendant/Sun/Moon, in this case my Moon rules POF's cusp, then ruler of Capricorn Moon, Saturn conjunct Sun. Does it mean a good condition of POF in 11th house??

Thank you for reading and sharing your ideas

Po yi

The almuten of any point/degree/lot in a chart is the planet with the most essential dignity at that degree. So for example my PoF is at 10* Aries. I look at the table of dignities and then see that the Sun has the most dignity there, being exaltation ruler and triplicity ruler, making Sun almuten of the PoF.

[poyi]

Originally Posted by tsmall

The almuten of any point/degree/lot in a chart is the planet with the most essential dignity at that degree. So for examply my PoF is at 10* Aries. I look at the table of dignities and then see that the Sun has the most dignity there, being exaltation ruler and triplicity ruler, making Sun almuten of the PoF.

Thank you for your help!!
I don't have that table

In that case, Moon rules Cancer cusp, Saturn ruling Moon, Saturn in Scorpio, Mars in 1st ruling Scorpio Saturn. Mars trine Moon, Moon in Capricorn exaltation of Mars.

Mars and Scorpio Mercury share mutual reception. Both Mars and Mercury in their own natural ruling houses, 1st and 3rd houses. Mars rules 4 Scorple planets and being in the 1st house. Mercury rules Virgo Ascendant and 10th house Gemini and Mars but in Cadent house, but also exalted in Virgo Mars.

The key players of the POF
Moon, Mars and Mercury are all connected by exaltations and trine+sextile....at the end maybe Mars would be Alumten of POF. ?

[poyi]

To make it more complicated, my POF trine both Pluto and Saturn.

[tsmall]

Originally Posted by poyi

Thank you for your help!!
I don't have that table

at the end maybe Mars would be Alumten of POF. ?

Maybe, and once you determine the Almuten you would definately look at the aspects it makes, etc. The table of dignities can be found here

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig2.html

[poyi]

Originally Posted by tsmall

Maybe, and once you determine the Almuten you would definately look at the aspects it makes, etc. The table of dignities can be found here

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig2.html

Thank you very much. Tsmall you are very helpful
My POF is at 4'29 Cancer.

[poyi]

Originally Posted by poyi

Thank you very much. Tsmall you are very helpful
My POF is at 4'29 Cancer.

According to the table, the triplicity is Mars also?? And Mars exalts in Moon anyway. Am I right to see Mars as the Almuten???

[tsmall]

Originally Posted by poyi

Thank you very much. Tsmall you are very helpful
My POF is at 4'29 Cancer.

You're welcome. I just checked quickly because I have to run off to work, but using Lily's table to examine dignity (found at the same link above) it looks like you have a tie between Moon and Mars as almuten. I personally would want to take Moon, because Cancer is the sign of Mars' fall. Hopefully someone else will be able to answer, if not I can look more later.

[poyi]

Originally Posted by tsmall

You're welcome. I just checked quickly because I have to run off to work, but using Lily's table to examine dignity (found at the same link above) it looks like you have a tie between Moon and Mars as almuten. I personally would want to take Moon, because Cancer is the sign of Mars' fall. Hopefully someone else will be able to answer, if not I can look more later.

Thank you for checking for me even yourself hurrying to work. You are so sweet. This is not urgent at all. Whenever you feel like to answer. Since I have problem understanding the traditional part of astrology. So I am really glad that you offer your insights.

Take care and be careful on the way to work. Have a good day!

[tsmall]

Poyi, this is probably why it isn't a good idea for tsmall to post before having enough coffee in the am. We did find the almuten of your PoF, but...thinking further, and consulting with a friend who knows way more, I don't think we really care about the almuten in this instance. Just the sign ruler, and it's condition.

It would still be nice if someone who understands this better were to chime in here, but I believe that the idea of the part of fortune (traditionally, I have no concept of how it is used in modern astrology) was make a new chart once it was located. Turning the chart, or making a fortuna chart. There is a good example/tutorial on the education board here from a few years ago.

Learning how to find the almuten, or planet representing, a point in the chart is a good exercise in any event.

[poyi]

Originally Posted by tsmall

Poyi, this is probably why it isn't a good idea for tsmall to post before having enough coffee in the am. We did find the almuten of your PoF, but...thinking further, and consulting with a friend who knows way more, I don't think we really care about the almuten in this instance. Just the sign ruler, and it's condition.

It would still be nice if someone who understands this better were to chime in here, but I believe that the idea of the part of fortune (traditionally, I have no concept of how it is used in modern astrology) was make a new chart once it was located. Turning the chart, or making a fortuna chart. There is a good example/tutorial on the education board here from a few years ago.

Learning how to find the almuten, or planet representing, a point in the chart is a good exercise in any event.

I see! I was only thinking of finding it because in the other thread another member briefly mentioned it.

I hope someone will come to confirm only the condition of ruler is important then.

Thank you very much of your time

[byjove]

Originally Posted by tsmall

The almuten of any point/degree/lot in a chart is the planet with the most essential dignity at that degree. So for examply my PoF is at 10* Aries. I look at the table of dignities and then see that the Sun has the most dignity there, being exaltation ruler and triplicity ruler, making Sun almuten of the PoF.

Hi T, thank you for that, long have I looked for simple explanation to that. One conundrum; ruler of sign vs. almuten? Which planet gets more strength, do they differ in importance, action, ability etc?

[dr. farr]

For me the problem with the almuten concept is that it overlooks the monomoiria (ancient rulerships of each degree) and also neglects consideration of the quality of the degree (bright/dark/mixed, pitted/elevated, azimene), so I myself do not use almuten estimations (but this is my own take on the matter; what has been posted above IS the official Traditionalist outlook regarding this subject)

[tsmall]

Hi poyi! You really need to clear out your inbox, because I did try to send this to you in a pm.

It was this thread that I was considering all day from the education forum.
(yes, dear, I was thinking about this while working, and even came home and asked a personal friend/really good traditional astrologer.)
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=13197

Are you familiar with profections, or even the idea of turning the chart? Basically, you would draw your chart, maybe on paper if you don't have a program that lets you (I used an upside down cereal bowl for the circle, and colored pencils for drawing) so that the 1st house is the sign of the PoF. Then you keep the planets in the same sign, but in their new houses. This works absolutely best (in fact I don't know if it works otherwise) if you use a whole sign chart.

Once you do that, you can follow what Ray Austin posted (this is from traditional literature. I have it on good authority that Valens, and all the other Greek astrologers cast the fortuna chart this way) and see what there is to be seen.

I hope this helps, and thanks for the replies. You are very sweet.

[tsmall]

Originally Posted by byjove

Hi T, thank you for that, long have I looked for simple explanation to that. One conundrum; ruler of sign vs. almuten? Which planet gets more strength, do they differ in importance, action, ability etc?

Gosh, jove, I think it really depends on what you are looking at and for. It <think> and now that dr. farr has joined this thread he can tell us better, that the whole reason for the idea of almutens was that the Greeks used an awful lot of lots (no pun intended.) So if you are looking at the lots, you need to know what planet represents those lots, because the planets are what carry the engery...they are the ones that have the ability to act.

Also, and again I may be wrong, but a natal chart isn't just about the native. So modernly, and even traditionally, we could look at the planets themselves, their signs and rulerships, to get an idea of the character of the native, but when we want to consider other things...like the people and obstacles he/she will encounter, we needed to determine which planet will represent those things...and that's why we need to know the almutens. Which is also why I think it is important to ask a question before we judge the chart, otherwise we are just shooting in the dark, or showing events after the fact instead of before...

[dr. farr]

What TSMALL is describing, above, was once known as the Fortunata chart in the times of the Greco/Roman astrologers (like Manilius and Valens), and was at that time the (apparently) PREFERABLE way to "read" nativities (the Fortunata chart dropped out of use by the time of the early Islamic-transitional era, around the 8th century AD, and might have been dropped from general practice even a couple hundred years prior to that) The Fortunata chart delineation is a very useful delineative tool!

[poyi]

Originally Posted by tsmall

Hi poyi! You really need to clear out your inbox, because I did try to send this to you in a pm.

It was this thread that I was considering all day from the education forum.
(yes, dear, I was thinking about this while working, and even came home and asked a personal friend/really good traditional astrologer.)
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=13197

Are you familiar with profections, or even the idea of turning the chart? Basically, you would draw your chart, maybe on paper if you don't have a program that lets you (I used an upside down cereal bowl for the circle, and colored pencils for drawing) so that the 1st house is the sign of the PoF. Then you keep the planets in the same sign, but in their new houses. This works absolutely best (in fact I don't know if it works otherwise) if you use a whole sign chart.

Once you do that, you can follow what Ray Austin posted (this is from traditional literature. I have it on good authority that Valens, and all the other Greek astrologers cast the fortuna chart this way) and see what there is to be seen.

I hope this helps, and thanks for the replies. You are very sweet.

Haha tsmall I overused my Internet data and next month is starting on 6th. I have been using mobile version don't have clear email function.

Thank you so much tsmall and also dr farr and byjove! I will have look this afternoon. No idea about this method . tsmall is only a small thing not urgent so don''t worry so much. You sound like a good Virgo to me lol just guessing very helpful

Love
Po yi

[poyi]

Originally Posted by dr. farr

For me the problem with the almuten concept is that it overlooks the monomoiria (ancient rulerships of each degree) and also neglects consideration of the quality of the degree (bright/dark/mixed, pitted/elevated, azimene), so I myself do not use almuten estimations (but this is my own take on the matter; what has been posted above IS the official Traditionalist outlook regarding this subject)

For dr farr and tsmall

The interesting thing is my natal POF at 4'29 Cancer and in 60th harmonic chart both my AC and MC conjunct and at 5'20 and 6'27" Cancer. So I guess this POF really means a lot to me and I better find out. If POF is now the ascendant should I examine the new chart as it is to the natal chart??
And again the Mars seem to be important though we don't care about the Almuten, Mars conjunct both AC and MC.

Thanks

P.S.: I should try to clear my PM with one of those pay to use computer service in the shopping mall....people have been trying hard

[tsmall]

Originally Posted by dr. farr

For me the problem with the almuten concept is that it overlooks the monomoiria (ancient rulerships of each degree) and also neglects consideration of the quality of the degree (bright/dark/mixed, pitted/elevated, azimene), so I myself do not use almuten estimations (but this is my own take on the matter; what has been posted above IS the official Traditionalist outlook regarding this subject)

Thanks as always, dr. farr. I do have a question, since with the almuten of poyi's PoF (even though we wouldn't really consider the almuten in this case) came in at a tie...don't we want to look not only for the planet with the most essential dignity at that degree, but also at the planet with the most ability to act? Why then don't we traditionally consider accidental dignity as well? Or, the other considerations you have outlined? Is that another case of the astrologer using experience and praticality to judge the chart? Again with the example given, and just looking for the almuten, Mars and Moon were in a tie, but Mars is in fall in Cancer and Moon is the domicile ruler there. Was there anything in the literature that gave direction in this instance? Wouldn't you want to take the planet in the best position?

[dr. farr]

Yes you would ALWAYS want to take the planet in the best position, and yes, accidental dignity considerations would come into play (they would have to: suppose the almuten happened to be in a pitted degree, which is an accidental debility; wouldn't that be a "big deal" relative to the almuten's capacity to influence and act?)-that's why for years I have always combined consideration of essential AND accidental dignities and debilities and why I do NOT give essential dignity/debility the "top spot"-I always use a totality of indications, in coming to delineative determinations.