Mother & father - MC/IC or 4th and 10th house?

I hope someone can help me a bit with this.

I am trying to find the best way to read into a chart with regards to parents of the individual. What do you guys use?

Do you use only the 4th house as indicator/significator for both parents and home?

Do you use 4th house for father and 10th for mother?

Do you use IC MC axis and houses they fall into to read this?

... and to continue a bit with planets conjunct axis:

Can you give me a bit of guidance into what it could mean having Mars conjunct your IC (in either 4th or 5th house) and Saturn close to your MC?

And then POF conjunct your ASC or in your 1st house?

Hi Arena,

Generally in traditional western astrology, Saturn is associated with the Father and Moon with the Mother. There is considerable agreement amongst western astrologers that the 4th house is the root of your core home and family life experiences. Hence, it being declared one of the key houses in natal chart interpretation.

If you use a quadrant house system, the IC is the cusp of the 4th, the MC of the 10th...the axis and the houses are identities.

If you use whole-sign houses, then the IC-MC axis does not coincide with the houses. It is the houses which represent the parents.

The traditional arrangement is 4th for the father, 10th for the mother. If I am not mistaken, in Hindu astrology the 4th symbolizes the mother and the 9th the father.

Because I use Placidus (a quadrant house system) the IC-MC axis always coincides with the 4th-10th cusps; Mars cannot be in the 5th if conjunct the IC. If Mars is conjunct the IC (the 4th cusp), the native will experience the father as having a martial nature., and the exact expression will depend on the condition of Mars (his sign and aspects to him, plus other conditioning factors), as well as the condition of the lord of the 4th and of Saturn -- who I use as "universal significator" of the father. The Sun is also significant.

In a general sense (not specific to any particular chart), Mars conjunct the 4th cusp suggests a father who is forceful, aggressive, quick to anger, possibly violent. He takes the initiative, has a hair-trigger temperament, is fiery by nature. But I would not "read" this position in that way without careful assessment of all the factors describing the native's relationship with the father first. A well-conditioned Mars can certainly indicate a father with positive traits: courageous, constructive, independent, etc.

But to interpret a chart using such broad generalizations is dangerous.

The sex (gender) of the native must be taken into account in this sort of assessment.

Study of psychiatric descriptions of "parent types" and the resultant psychological effects on the child will be helpful to understanding.

Saturn conjunct the MC...Study the life and the horoscope of John F. Kennedy. In his chart, Saturn is lord of the 4th (IC) but is posited close to the MC in his detriment (Cancer). Naturally, this results in ambiguity. Does Saturn depict the father or the mother, or both? This same planet also represents the native's social status (in this particuar case).

Thank you both very much for your input.

Yes I did note that using whole sign houses does change things and because I am inclined to use whole sign houses I am also trying to figure out if the right thing is actually to place the MC/IC axis always straight up/down-vertical as the MC is supposed to be the highest point in the sky - straight up- when you are born... and then the ASC sign might even change from what the computer program says if placing the ASC also always as a horizontal axis (straight east from the highest point (MC)). I guess I just do not trust blindly in astrological software also because there are so many different views on which way is the best way to read a chart.

I am now trying to understand my children's charts and also trying to figure out if their birth time should be tampered with and whether it could be right what one member here has told me that the ASC sign can be found in an interval of 6 hours around the birth of a child, not necessarily the minute of birth because that does not always fit the individual.

But I do need to understand my children's 4th house
I am also wondering if the 4th house is both mother and father as a union in the home.

I am looking at my children and then looking at their astro chart in it just does not fit the picture as I see it

My youngest is a sparkly girl with red hair and round face and always singing and dancing and she opens up books and just makes up all kinds of stories. She is also very straight forward and quick to go up to people and speak and she can sometimes be a bit aggressive I don't see how it fits an ASC in Libra with Saturn within 4° conjunction and Venus in 2nd house in Scorpio??? Maybe rather that her ASC is conjunct Venus of artistic expression? Venus is of course the ruler of 1st then, but Saturn is bothering me in that picture as she is not in any way shy or restricted.

My middle one is a bit of a puzzle. He would probably be seen as the most beautiful face of the siblings as he has fine lines and blond hair (in traditional sense although I also think my daughter with the red hair is very beautiful). His nose is pointy like mine and his eyes also like all my children's eyes point upward a bit at the outer edge. He is supposed to have Scorpio ASC which would fit his shyness and being maybe somewhat inhibited. Pluto is in third if ASC Scorpio and Mars in Pisces. He also has the aggressive nature and temper like his siblings, and it comes out in fighting physically.

I would think the two young children I have with the same man and we all live together should have their 4th house in a sign with similar traits or same ruler.

My oldest one is easier as he is now 14 and I've known him longer and see his character unfold for a longer time He has ASC Virgo with Sun directly conjunct and it does describe his self centered nature and his tiny and very thin bodyshape and his V shape face. He also has Mercury and Venus in 1st house which also fits the picture as he has interest in computers, communication and has natural musical talent. Although I have sometimes thought he might be Leo ASC (his ASC is close to the border of those two signs) as he has Mars in Leo and can have such a temper and aggressive expression sometimes.


Having children of this nature makes me think that my 5th house has an association with Mars so it might be either Aries or my Leo sign with Sun, Mars and Mercury inside it The 5th house is supposed to not only predict if you have children or not but also the traits of your children, right?

greybeard said:

But to interpret a chart using such broad generalizations is dangerous.

Click to expand...

Last night I read a post from greybeard where he was pointing out that astrology is essentially an art of experience more than theory. That theory lays the grounds for us but we can't just follow theory blindly - we have to read the chart in whatever ways fit the life. Or at least that's how I interpreted it. Forgive me if I have that wrong greybeard.

But in my own limited experience I have to suggest that you take all the different things people say about where you find your mother and father as a starting place, but then ruminate on your own chart, ruminate on the effects and the relationship you have with your parents in your own life, then find those effects wherever they seem to be in the chart. Once you've done that, maybe the chart will tell you more interesting stuff about your parents and you...

I say this because in my own chart I find my father's effects on me to be best expressed by Saturn but my Mother's to be best expressed by Neptune. Neptune sits pretty much on my IC and Saturn is five degrees off my MC in the 10th. The two are in opposition. In fact, they form the pole of an angular t-square that is really prominent in my chart and my life. By no means do I think these two planets only represent my parents - the opposition of these two energies dominates my life in ways that go well beyond my relationship with my parents - but the very fact that a Saturn/Neptune opposition is so prominent in my life may have had its genesis in the opposing characters and relationship of my mother and father. Perhaps even genetically. Their own dynamic, as a couple and as parents, looks like a Saturn vs. Neptune opposition, with the father playing Saturn and the mother playing Neptune. Their dynamic probably imprinted me with this Saturn/Neptune opposition in the first place. And so I tend to find them there.
That said, I have moon conjunct Sun, and it would be appropriate to say my father has eclipsed my mother in my life... But that's as far as the metaphor would probably go. The sign they are in doesn't really say much about either my parents our my relationship with them. Probably not the house either. But I do entertain the possibility that we might find different aspects fo our parents in different places in the chart.
So... again, in my experience at least, it's been about starting with the usual theory but rooting around my chart - and doing a little self-psychoanalysis - to figure out what spots in the chart best express the role or place or effects each parent has had on me...

Thanks again
The reason for me trying to understand my children's charts is because I know them well, I know what kind of home and parents and siblings they have and I was the one to bring them into the world and then look at the clock as soon as that had occured - but I have not completely figured out my own ASC sign and therefore do not yet understand to the fullest my own chart.

I see that my younger children both have their Moon in Aries and my oldest son (their half brother) has his Moon conjunct Mars in Leo (I do have hot temper but am also courageous, constructive, independent, etc like greybeard said earlier) So in the case of my middle son I do not think Mars has to do with his father, but more with his mother. His father cannot be described by Mars in any sense other than being constructing/renovating the home (along with me).

The MC is based on the time of birth measured in right ascension for the longitude of the place of birth. It translates to a degree/minute of the zodiac. It basically gives the orientation of the Earth to the zodiac at the moment of birth.

The Ascendant is then derived from the MC for the latitude of birth.

Both of these points are actual, measureable facts.

If you have a reasonably accurate birth time for the children there is no reason to tinker with the charts. Rectification by a highly skilled practitioner would be ok.

Children of the same family, same parents, do not have identical (and sometimes quite different) 4th houses because the chart shows the way the child experiences the parent(s), not necessarily some objective fact. And no two children in the same family have the same experience of family, home and parents. Just their age differences create different environments. All sorts of things change within in a family in even a short period of time.

I hope you figure all this out. You seem to want to make the horoscope fit the person you think you know, and that is, as my Kentucky mother used to say, "putting the cart before the horse."

As the mother, you were present at the birth. Surely you know if the recorded birth time corresponds with your memory of the event or not; that is, you should be aware of any gross errors in recorded TOB. I have the birth chart of the child of a friend of mine. The recorded time is 11:30 am. But my friend describes the time of birth (he was there) and insists it was 11:30 pm. I cast that chart for the nightime. Such errors are rare, but am/pm are easily confused.

Here is something for your consideration. A human life is experienced wholly within the mind of the experiencer -- and nowhere else. Even external events occur only within the mind in the final analysis. This means that life itself is entirely subjective. Life itself exists only through consciousness. Prior to and after life there is no consciousness, thus no life. If you get where I'm coming from, then this means that the horoscope is also wholly subjective -- it shows a person's experience of life -- which is lived entirely within the mind and nowhere else.

I use either the Lot of the Father or the Lot of the Mother, for such investigations; there is just too much historical controversy (from my perspective) to use the various generic significators* with much confidence.

*generic significators: for example, Sun father in a diurnal birth, Saturn in a nocturnal; Venus mother in a diurnal, Moon in a nocturnal; vs 4th house lord for father and 10th house lord for mother; vs 1st triplicity lord of 4th house sign for father and 1st triplicity lord of 10th house sign for mother; vs Vedic allocations (going back to most ancient times) of 4th house lord for MOTHER and 10th house lord for FATHER; vs South Indian Vedic tradition of 4th house lord for mother and 9TH HOUSE lord for father...

Note: the Lot of the Father is calculated:
day birth: ascendant+sun-saturn
night birth: ascendant+saturn-sun

The Lot of the Mother is calculated:
day birth: ascendant+moon-venus
night birth: ascendant+venus-moon

10th house ruler is mother and 4th house ruler is father.in male charts. In female charts maybe switch bu i do not think sou.Moon is mather but do not think the father Sun or Saturn.

my lot of mother is actually conjunct my 4th house

In my younger years in astrology I had the misconception that since the 4th is in correlation to cancer it was the mother. And since Saturn has rulership of Capricorn and a relationship to the 10th that it was the father.

Well once one hides those post-1700 books from himself and starts studying where all this astro knowledge came from one sees the fallacies of that type of assessments of associating astrology in the wrong way.

In a diurnal (Sun above the horizon) chart, the Sun is the father. In a Nocturnal chart Saturn represents the father.

And the Moon, ruler of women is the mother.

http://www.astrologysoftware.com/download/mothermoon.pdf

The above link is from the Modern astrology course I started with, but Heindel got it from pre-1700 authors in Germany.

And though it may seem that the cancer ruled house, the 4th should be the mother, it's Not, it is the parents, grandparents, but the Father. And since the Father is the forth from astrologers of antiquity, the father's wife, his 7th, is the 10th.

Yes, it's going to get rather complicated when you have a chart with Capricorn on the 4th and cancer on the tenth!

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/texts.html

Rather than being dependent upon others and not sharing any data it may help everyone if one reads these many fine books from the website above, authors of antiquity that you may become enlightened from their wisdom. Then one can add to the knowledge in discussions.

No ruler of 4th house id father and ruler of th 10th house is mother Moon is mother and Saturn maybe father.

10th House is traditionally the house of the Mother http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h10.html

4th house Main Rulerships:
Parents in general and fathers in particular
grandparents and ancestry http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h4.html

Arnysv

No ruler of 4th house id father and ruler of th 10th house is mother Moon is mother and Saturn maybe father.

Click to expand...

[deleted attacking comment - Moderator]
Because these authorities say the 4th is the father, 10th is mother:



http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h4.html

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/lilly_houses.html



William Lilly, CA I, page 52, the Fourth House

"...Giveth judgement of fathers in general and ever of his father that enquires, or that is born; of lands, houses, tenements, inheritances, tillage of the earth, treasures hidden, the determination or end of anything; towns, cities or castles, besieged or not besieged; all ancient dwellings, gardens, fields, pastures, orchards; the quality and nature of the....."

CA I , page 55, the Tenth House

"Commonly it personifies kings, princes, dukes, earls, judges, prime officers, commanders in chief, whether in armies or towns; all sorts of magistracy and officers in authority; mothers, honour, preferment, dignity, office, lawyers; the profession or trade any one useth; it signifies kingdoms, empires, dukedoms, counties."

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/4elect.html

Evidently a lot of professional astrologer past and present note the rulerships...maybe they have actually studied astrology!

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary1ed.html

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4831


...strange where some people come up with these ideas

My astrology teacher told me 10th rhouse ruler is mother a 4th house ruler is father and myny others astrologer sais that. For woman radix maybe switch. I seen radix who 4th house ruler is very damaged and won told me. that relationships fo her parents is good.

This Womn have Ruler of 10th house in 3th house and Moon in Aries in 6 house. Mother work in Library and have Sun in Aries.

The Ruler of 4th house in 2th house conjunct Saturn. his father is chemist and have Sun in Taurus.

Because these authorities say the 4th is the father, 10th is mother:

Click to expand...

I said same thing.

greybeard said:

If you use a quadrant house system, the IC is the cusp of the 4th, the MC of the 10th...the axis and the houses are identities.

If you use whole-sign houses, then the IC-MC axis does not coincide with the houses. It is the houses which represent the parents.

The traditional arrangement is 4th for the father, 10th for the mother. If I am not mistaken, in Hindu astrology the 4th symbolizes the mother and the 9th the father.

Because I use Placidus (a quadrant house system) the IC-MC axis always coincides with the 4th-10th cusps; Mars cannot be in the 5th if conjunct the IC. If Mars is conjunct the IC (the 4th cusp), the native will experience the father as having a martial nature., and the exact expression will depend on the condition of Mars (his sign and aspects to him, plus other conditioning factors), as well as the condition of the lord of the 4th and of Saturn -- who I use as "universal significator" of the father. The Sun is also significant.

In a general sense (not specific to any particular chart), Mars conjunct the 4th cusp suggests a father who is forceful, aggressive, quick to anger, possibly violent. He takes the initiative, has a hair-trigger temperament, is fiery by nature. But I would not "read" this position in that way without careful assessment of all the factors describing the native's relationship with the father first. A well-conditioned Mars can certainly indicate a father with positive traits: courageous, constructive, independent, etc.

But to interpret a chart using such broad generalizations is dangerous.

The sex (gender) of the native must be taken into account in this sort of assessment.

Study of psychiatric descriptions of "parent types" and the resultant psychological effects on the child will be helpful to understanding.

Saturn conjunct the MC...Study the life and the horoscope of John F. Kennedy. In his chart, Saturn is lord of the 4th (IC) but is posited close to the MC in his detriment (Cancer). Naturally, this results in ambiguity. Does Saturn depict the father or the mother, or both? This same planet also represents the native's social status (in this particuar case).

Click to expand...

In my natal chart I have both house rulers conjunct each other in the house naturally ruled by one of those two planets....Pluto and Venus...could this be viewed as a similar situation, where as it could be considered ambiguous? Also would you take into account the night ruler of Pluto as well as a mitigating factor concerning the 10th house ruler in this case? For the night ruler of Scorpio makes for a quincunx with two of the planets that are conjunct the mid-heaven. Many of the text that I have studied have always stated the reverse concerning the parental lineage of each house so of course my experience is limited concerning this topic. How would you give weight to these particular parameters?