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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. Specifically it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) and excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) non-Ptolemaic aspects, as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 11-19-2017, 02:23 PM
RogueLibra RogueLibra is offline
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Whole Sign House System

Has anyone ever used this? If this is in the wrong spot i apologize. I posted here because it is a pretty ancient system. I use it because it has been the most accurate for me. I use it for transits also and it has been accurate also.

A house system that uses cusps put my mars and sun in the 12th with Pluto in the 1st. I am nowhere near as subtle as that system suggest. Very open and upfront albeit a bit shy i am still pretty open and even defensive. But whole signs put neptune in the 4th instead of the 3rd for me. Not only was home where I did alot of escaping as a child, I was pretty much lied to about my paternal side and they were kept from me despite my obvious resemblance to them and my ways I picked up despite not being raised by them. My father was on drugs, sold them also and went to prison. He is now a preacher, which in my eyes is pretty neptunian.

Whole sign puts both Uranus and Saturn in the 3rd house for me. In school, I was disciplined ALOT. Mainly for being disruptive. I was diagnosed with ADHD, something very Uranian in my eyes and placed on Ritalin, as a means of control.

Pluto was another signifier for me. In the second it describes my attitude towards money perfectly. I have had periods to where I was well off and then i had to restart.

But the transit was the biggest key for me. When Pluto hit Capricorn in 2008, it hit my 4th and in a big way. Ppl who were the authorities in my family began to die. My grandmother, our rock, was diagnosed with Alzheimer's and became a shell of herself. I also had family members re-ermge from prison, a Capricorn structure. Since the transit has progressed it is squaring my libra sun and i have became a father.


Just my 2 cents. Would like to know if anybody else uses it

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  #2  
Unread 11-19-2017, 03:11 PM
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Re: Whole Sign House System

Traditional astrology does not use Pluto nor Uranus and Neptune, they go by the 7 original "planets" or celestial bodies of the solar system visible to the naked eye. This belongs to Modern astrology instead...just helping you out.
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or , I have the same ruling planets: Uranus and Saturn. I see the Cancer rising. Aries in the MC and Venus was her name!
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Unread 11-19-2017, 03:19 PM
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Re: Whole Sign House System

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Originally Posted by RogueLibra View Post
Has anyone ever used this? If this is in the wrong spot i apologize. I posted here because it is a pretty ancient system. I use it because it has been the most accurate for me. I use it for transits also and it has been accurate also.
I can confirm that. It's the oldest, simplest and most accurate house system. And it saves you a lot of unnecessary trouble.
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  #4  
Unread 11-19-2017, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapAquaPis View Post
Traditional astrology does not use Pluto nor Uranus and Neptune, they go by the 7 original "planets" or celestial bodies of the solar system visible to the naked eye. This belongs to Modern astrology instead...just helping you out.
Ahhh of course I forgot about that. My bad
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Unread 11-19-2017, 03:23 PM
RogueLibra RogueLibra is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
I can confirm that. It's the oldest, simplest and most accurate house system. And it saves you a lot of unnecessary trouble.
Yea it has been very accurate for me. I still look at the cusp chart but it just doesn't connect the dots like the whole sign chart does
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Unread 11-19-2017, 03:31 PM
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Re: Whole Sign House System

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Originally Posted by RogueLibra View Post
Yea it has been very accurate for me. I still look at the cusp chart but it just doesn't connect the dots like the whole sign chart does
Instead of using the house cusp as the beginning point of a house, I suggest to use it as the most sensitive point of a house.
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  #7  
Unread 11-19-2017, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
Instead of using the house cusp as the beginning point of a house, I suggest to use it as the most sensitive point of a house.
I never thought about that but it makes alot of sense to. I feel like using it at the beginning gives ppl a fantasy chart
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Unread 11-19-2017, 10:34 PM
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Re: Whole Sign House System

Quote:
Originally Posted by byjove View Post


Hello all, I'm looking to learn more about how whole sign methods are getting on today. Just curious!

dr. farr re: the application of whole sign methods to chart delineation


Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post


Cusps:Today (and for the past thousand years or so) we define cusps as "borders" (coasts), but that is not the original meaning of the word "cusp": it means "point" such as cuspal teeth (bicuspids) and the point of a sword

- so originally the term cusp meant the "point" of something, and in astrology originally the "cusp" of the house meant its "point";

now, when quadrant systems were developed, this "point" of the house came to mean its "beginning", which later came to mean its "border", ie, the "border" between one house and the other.

And later astrology also began using these "borders" (cusps) for various prognostic applications (Charles Carter came to believe that, for timing of events, the "cusps" of the Campanus house system gave the best results, among the various quadrant house systems)

But now notice this: in whole sign the cusps are NOT the 0 degree "borders" of sign/houses at all, and never were so regarded!

In whole sign, the "cusp" retained its original meaning, not as a "border" but rather as A POINT

-and that POINT (cusp) for EACH house, was the sensitive point of that house, viz, the sensitive point in whole sign houses-each house-that is the "cusp" of each house-is a direct projection from the ascending degree.

Example:
-the ascending degree of a chart is 18 Taurus: what are the house cusps (sensitive points, original meaning of the word "cusp") in the whole sign houses of this chart?
Cusp of 1st house = 18 Taurus
Cusp of 2nd house = 18 Gemini
Cusp of 3rd house = 18 Cancer
Cusp of 4th house = 18 Leo
Cusp of 5th house = 18 Virgo
Cusp of 6th house = 18 Libra
Cusp of 7th house = 18 Scorpio
Cusp of 8th house = 18 Sagittarius
Cusp of 9th house = 18 Capricorn
Cusp of 10th house = 18 Aquarius
Cusp of 11th house = 18 Pisces
Cusp of 12th house = 18 Aries

Now it is these "cusps" (sensitive degrees, original meaning of the word "cusp" as a "point") that are (and were) used for progressions, timing of events, etc, and the fact is that they work for these purposes, quite well (in expert hands)

Whole sign does not use the BORDERS between houses (always 0 degree of any sign) for anything
but it DOES use "cusps" (points in the house, projected from the exact ascending degree)
for timing (and other) delineative purposes.


Whole sign suddenly vanished (both in the West and in Vedic astrology) during the same period of time-ie, late 8th to early 9th century - this sudden disappearance suggests a sudden turn in astrological thinking and practices, rather than a gradual supplanting of a less effective traditional method (whole sign) by a new and more effective method (rheotrius/alchabitius in the West, and the closely related to whole sign Equal house, in Vedic astrology)

For me, there is only 1 reason I switched to whole sign-it worked better (FOR ME)

I could care less if it were the oldest house system (which it is) or whether it was invented by Badda Bing at Barney's Beanery in Bayonne, 10 years ago: only things I consider are:
-does it seem to make sense?
-does it "taste good" to me (ie, does it "feel right" to me)
-and, if yes to the above, does it work (producing delineations and predicitions) better than what I have previously been doing?

Well, whole sign did all that, for me, so I switched; but I am not going to try to convince anyone of anything about it, except for beginners-to you who might just be starting out, I would say: try whole sign first, and see how well it might work for you...
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  #9  
Unread 11-19-2017, 10:47 PM
RogueLibra RogueLibra is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
dr. farr re: the application of whole sign methods to chart delineation
Just changed my WHOLE way of thinking about it. Not saying I was looking for validation but i just couldn't return to the cusping style but cuspa as a sensitive point makes so much sense to me. For me, like Dr.Farr, whole sign is just far more accurate from personality to transit. I dont dablle in progressions too too much so i havent applied it there but This was such a great reply. I actually read that reaponse before and believe it or not its the main reason I stayed with whole sign and actually switched to it. You'd be surprised how often your name and Dr.Farr appeared on things when I googled astrology advice. I think yall were here when I first came.


Amazing post tho. Reading it a second time jist makes me solidfy my stance with whole sign houses. I'm still stuck at how much more since it makes. I think ppl think whole sign ditches cusps all together and even I thought it did but it doesn't it just reapplies them in a different way. God that makes so much sense to me. I have been on other websites where ppl use the cusps in order to have the desired placements they seek in their chart but i always felt like this was wrong. It never made sense to me to have a 12th and 1st house libra. It honestly confused me. Whole sign just provided more accuracy for me. And i didn't just use it for myself. I had some ppl ask me to read their chart and i took guesses using the whole sign system but never told them that's what i was using. They were shocked by how accurate I was and when i told them the system they looked even more shocked.


Safe to say im sticking with this system and now I have a new and more efficient way to use it
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  #10  
Unread 11-19-2017, 11:06 PM
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Re: Whole Sign House System

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueLibra View Post

Just changed my WHOLE way of thinking about it. Not saying I was looking for validation but i just couldn't return to the cusping style but cuspa as a sensitive point makes so much sense to me. For me, like Dr.Farr, whole sign is just far more accurate from personality to transit. I dont dablle in progressions too too much so i havent applied it there but This was such a great reply. I actually read that reaponse before and believe it or not its the main reason I stayed with whole sign and actually switched to it. You'd be surprised how often your name and Dr.Farr appeared on things when I googled astrology advice. I think yall were here when I first came.

Amazing post tho. Reading it a second time jist makes me solidfy my stance with whole sign houses. I'm still stuck at how much more since it makes. I think ppl think whole sign ditches cusps all together and even I thought it did but it doesn't it just reapplies them in a different way. God that makes so much sense to me. I have been on other websites where ppl use the cusps in order to have the desired placements they seek in their chart but i always felt like this was wrong. It never made sense to me to have a 12th and 1st house libra. It honestly confused me. Whole sign just provided more accuracy for me. And i didn't just use it for myself. I had some ppl ask me to read their chart and i took guesses using the whole sign system but never told them that's what i was using. They were shocked by how accurate I was and when i told them the system they looked even more shocked.

Safe to say im sticking with this system and now I have a new and more efficient way to use it
As you just highlighted
WHOLE SIGN HOUSES eliminates ambiguity of HOUSE location of PLANET

and then
using any quadrant house system
such as Placidus, Alcabitius et al
assists with determining PLANETARY STRENGTH

tsmalls comment at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=94683
explains the rationale

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post

I use both whole signs and Placidus.
The original idea of quadrant based house systems was to determine angularity,
and never to replace the concept of topics.
So I count signs for topics
and use a house system overlaid onto it.

Because, as I mentioned above, capability
and angularity/ability to act
are two different things.....
tsmall uses BOTH whole signs AND Placidus

I use BOTH whole signs AND Alcabitius
some use whole sign AND Regiomontanus
there are multiple QUADRANT house systems
its a matter of personal choice which to use in tandem with WHOLE SIGN
IF one chooses to do so

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post

Yes, the dominant house system in Greco-Roman astrology
(until about the time of the end of the Classical Period) was whole sign,
but (among the famous very early Arabic astrologers of the transitional period)
only Abu'Mashar continued the ancient Greco-Roman practice,
and the whole sign house format became virtually forgotten (in the West)
until the mid-1990's.

Personally I think it was an historical tragedy for our astrological art
that whole sign houses became lost to memory,
for my experience
over the past nearly 20 years of exclusively using whole sign houses
has convinced me
of the more consistent accuracy of this house system, over any other...

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  #11  
Unread 11-20-2017, 12:13 AM
RogueLibra RogueLibra is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
As you just highlighted
WHOLE SIGN HOUSES eliminates ambiguity of HOUSE location of PLANET

and then
using any quadrant house system
such as Placidus, Alcabitius et al
assists with determining PLANETARY STRENGTH

tsmalls comment at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=94683
explains the rationale


tsmall uses BOTH whole signs AND Placidus

I use BOTH whole signs AND Alcabitius
some use whole sign AND Regiomontanus
there are multiple QUADRANT house systems
its a matter of personal choice which to use in tandem with WHOLE SIGN
IF one chooses to do so

I never thought of quadrant houses in that light. That's something I will look at again. I guess my focus was on finding the right system that I eliminated possibilities instead of exploring them. I have looked at different qaudrant house systems but for me they all line my chart up pretty much the same. So for me with that I just stick to one qaud system as it reads the same as the other ones. In what way does it show planetary strength? That's an interesting notion.
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  #12  
Unread 11-20-2017, 12:40 PM
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Re: Whole Sign House System

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueLibra View Post

I never thought of quadrant houses in that light. That's something I will look at again. I guess my focus was on finding the right system that I eliminated possibilities instead of exploring them. I have looked at different qaudrant house systems but for me they all line my chart up pretty much the same. So for me with that I just stick to one qaud system as it reads the same as the other ones.


In what way does it show planetary strength?
That's an interesting notion.

as you have discovered from experience
Whole sign Houses is sufficient when sensitive points are factored in

quadrant house systems just add to planetary strength assessment
because
if a planet in a particular Whole Sign House
is in a different house in any quadrant based system

THEN
it is not so strong

i.e.
if a planet is in SAME HOUSE for quadrant as well as Whole Sign
then that planet is stronger


for example
if Whole Sign shows a planet is in 1st house
but
quadrant shows that same planet is in 12th house
then
that planet is not as strong
as it would have been
if
that planet had been in 1st house for both quadrant and Whole Signs
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  #13  
Unread 11-20-2017, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
as you have discovered from experience
Whole sign Houses is sufficient when sensitive points are factored in

quadrant house systems just add to planetary strength assessment
because
if a planet in a particular Whole Sign House
is in a different house in any quadrant based system

THEN
it is not so strong

i.e.
if a planet is in SAME HOUSE for quadrant as well as Whole Sign
then that planet is stronger


for example
if Whole Sign shows a planet is in 1st house
but
quadrant shows that same planet is in 12th house
then
that planet is not as strong
as it would have been
if
that planet had been in 1st house for both quadrant and Whole Signs
Ahhh ok that makes alot of sense. Well my whole chart is weaker in that sense because the only planet that stays in the same spot is the sun
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Unread 11-20-2017, 01:21 PM
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Re: Whole Sign House System

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueLibra View Post

Ahhh ok that makes alot of sense.
Great
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueLibra View Post

Well my whole chart is weaker in that sense
Not necessarily
planetary strength is assessed by many factors
including ESSENTIAL DIGNITY

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueLibra View Post

because the only planet that stays in the same spot is the sun
Sun may "stay in the same spot"
but houses themselves have different strengths
other planets may be in stronger Whole Sign houses than the sun

The houses are not all equal in strength and power.
If a planet is located in an angular house, it is much more forceful in its effects
than it would be in a cadent house.
On page 48 of Christian Astrology Lilly writes:

The angles are most powerful
the succeedents are next in virtue
the cadents poor, and of little efficacy:
the succeedent houses follow the angles
the cadents come next [after] the succeedents.
In force and virtue they stand so in order:
1 10 7 4 11 5 9 3 2 8 6 12
The meaning whereof is this
that two planets equally dignified, the one in the Ascendant, the other in the tenth house
you shall judge the planet in the Ascendant somewhat of more power
to effect what he is significator of
than he that is in the tenth:
do so in the rest as they stand in order
remembering that planets in angles do more forcibly show their effects


http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary1d.html
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  #15  
Unread 11-20-2017, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Great

Not necessarily
planetary strength is assessed by many factors
including ESSENTIAL DIGNITY


Sun may "stay in the same spot"
but houses themselves have different strengths
other planets may be in stronger Whole Sign houses than the sun

The houses are not all equal in strength and power.
If a planet is located in an angular house, it is much more forceful in its effects
than it would be in a cadent house.
On page 48 of Christian Astrology Lilly writes:

The angles are most powerful
the succeedents are next in virtue
the cadents poor, and of little efficacy:
the succeedent houses follow the angles
the cadents come next [after] the succeedents.
In force and virtue they stand so in order:
1 10 7 4 11 5 9 3 2 8 6 12
The meaning whereof is this
that two planets equally dignified, the one in the Ascendant, the other in the tenth house
you shall judge the planet in the Ascendant somewhat of more power
to effect what he is significator of
than he that is in the tenth:
do so in the rest as they stand in order
remembering that planets in angles do more forcibly show their effects


http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary1d.html

I remember reading about the cardinal houses strength a while ago. I myself, in the whole sign chart, have planets in the 1st, 4th and 7th. I can say the lessons have been more pronounced.


So my understanding thus far would be a planet can be considered weakend if it is in a different house in the quad system which makes sense seeing as it is further away from the critical point of the house(im guessing????). But a planet in the 11th house in my whole sign chart is still not as strong or pronounced as a planet in the 7th house or 4th house. So even tho a planet stays in the same spot in both system retaining planetary strength, it can lose power by being in a weaker house correct??

Now that i think about it, my sun moves to the 12th. Its at 21 degrees libra but the ascendant is 25 degrees Libra it just conjuncts the ascending point of the 1st house or the ascendant.


Getting a firmer grasp on this
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Unread 11-20-2017, 02:10 PM
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Re: Whole Sign House System

In this case I have to disagree with JUPITERASC. From my own long experience with astrology, I have found the Whole Sign House System to be much more effective than the quadrant systems. I started with those systems, but my own chart never made sense and did not predict anything about my life. As soon as I heard of the whole sign system, I set up a chart. Every traditional planet changed houses, and it suddenly made sense: the planets were much more effective with it. I have converted every chart I work on with the same results, and I use whole signs for everything now.
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  #17  
Unread 11-20-2017, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Culpeper View Post
In this case I have to disagree with JUPITERASC. From my own long experience with astrology, I have found the Whole Sign House System to be much more effective than the quadrant systems. I started with those systems, but my own chart never made sense and did not predict anything about my life. As soon as I heard of the whole sign system, I set up a chart. Every traditional planet changed signs, and it suddenly made sense: the planets were much more effective with it. I have converted every chart I work on with the same results, and I use whole signs for everything now.
<br />
<br />
<br />
I think you misunderstood JUPITERASC. They never said whole signs wouldnt work just pointing out how both systems are combined.

For example I have a Libra ascendant at 25 degrees. In my whole sign chart the first house starts at libra at 0 degreed BUT 25 degrees becomes the SENSITIVE point of the house thus making that a point of importance in the house. By combining both systems it shows planetary strengths.

I am happy to see that im not alone with the application of whole sign systems. It has made alot of sense with me making the switch however I'm still open to making this system more affective even if that includes using qaud systems as a means of measurement and not signifier
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  #18  
Unread 11-20-2017, 08:28 PM
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Re: Whole Sign House System

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueLibra View Post

I remember reading about the cardinal houses strength a while ago.

I myself, in the whole sign chart, have planets in the 1st, 4th and 7th.
I can say the lessons have been more pronounced.



So my understanding thus far would be
a planet can be considered weakend
if it is in a different house in the quad system
which makes sense seeing as it is further away from the critical point of the house
(im guessing????).

But a planet in the 11th house in my whole sign chart
is still not as strong or pronounced as a planet in the 7th house
or 4th house
.
So even tho a planet stays in the same spot in both system retaining planetary strength,
it can lose power by being in a weaker house correct??

That's the theory

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueLibra View Post

Now that i think about it, my sun moves to the 12th.
Its at 21 degrees libra but the ascendant is 25 degrees Libra
it just conjuncts the ascending point of the 1st house or the ascendant.

Getting a firmer grasp on this

Ascendant degree changes every four minutes
so
if birth had occurred just twenty minutes sooner
than stated
then
ascendant would have been 20 degrees Libra
and Sun would have been below horizon
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let your food be your medicine: let your medicine be your food. Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY red cabbage sliced Equatorially illustrates the Golden Mean Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #19  
Unread 11-20-2017, 08:30 PM
RogueLibra RogueLibra is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
That's the theory


Ascendant degree changes every four minutes
so
if birth had occurred just twenty minutes sooner
than stated
then
ascendant would have been 20 degrees Libra
and Sun would have been below horizon
Bad timing is my m.o. lol thanks for taking the time to explain!
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  #20  
Unread 11-20-2017, 09:04 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 28,724
Re: Whole Sign House System

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueLibra View Post

Bad timing is my m.o. lol thanks for taking the time to explain!

Good idea to question everything - including accuracy of official birthtime
Rectification thread with
Tips For Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51626
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let your food be your medicine: let your medicine be your food. Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY red cabbage sliced Equatorially illustrates the Golden Mean Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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