Prediction vs Free Will

Oddity

Well-known member
The concept of free will came to us by way of ecclesiastical fiat. Christianity is a theological disaster without it. If anything out of my control, your control, anyone's control could possibly prevent them from accepting Jesus, then Christianity is not the universal religion it claims to be.

Later on, the existentialists heavily picked up the concept of free will, but without religion, and modern astrology is big on it, too.

I have no reason to believe that free will exists. Your religious background may be different.
 

katydid

Well-known member
Okay, this has been a question that has nagged me forever: If we have free will how can *anything* be predicted with astrology? I have not yet been able to find a satisfying answer to it. I flip back and forth between believing the future can be predicted using astrology, to believing that astrology is a complete waste of time, since, logically, nothing can be predicted if we have free will. Can anyone help me figure this out? It actually set off an existential crisis in me a few years back; I literally could not see much point in living if every experience we have is preordained; at that point, I chose to believe we have free will and that astrology was only good for being a psychological tool for self-actualization. Anyway, since then, I've gotten in to horary, which I question every single day. I want to believe in prediction because there are some things I want so badly (dont we all want some things so badly) and I want to know if I am investing my hopes into something for nothing. So can somebody explain to me what I'm missing- how can events in ones life be predicted if we have free will?

I understand exactly what you are asking. I asked myself similarly for years. I have come to an inner understanding that works well for me.

Free Will exists within the blueprint or guidelines of the charts. So for example, a native might have a strong innate talent for music. And I might see that in their chart. And I might see some very specific, lucky aspects to their midheaven. So if their parent showed me the chart when the child was young, I MIGHT 'predict' that the child would grow up to be a well known artist. Knowing that might spur the parents on to provide the child musical training, access to instruments and encouragement. But it will still be up to the native to follow through on their aspirations. They could be the best guitarist/vocalist/songwriter around. But if the Neptune/Mercury/Venus influence is going towards drugs/alcohol and not studio time, then the prediction will not come true.

I had a long, somewhat combative thread here before where I said that try yo I stay away from literal predictions because of the concept of Free Will. I was in the minority it seems. :sideways:
 

katydid

Well-known member
The concept of free will came to us by way of ecclesiastical fiat. Christianity is a theological disaster without it. If anything out of my control, your control, anyone's control could possibly prevent them from accepting Jesus, then Christianity is not the universal religion it claims to be.

Later on, the existentialists heavily picked up the concept of free will, but without religion, and modern astrology is big on it, too.

I have no reason to believe that free will exists. Your religious background may be different.

So then, if someone comes to you, saying their child has leukemia. Do we just look at the charts and determine if the child is going to live or die? No use going to all of the time and expense of treatments and prayers if it is absolute and determined already. :crying:
 

AJ Astrology

Well-known member
Okay, this has been a question that has nagged me forever: If we have free will how can *anything* be predicted with astrology? I have not yet been able to find a satisfying answer to it. I flip back and forth between believing the future can be predicted using astrology, to believing that astrology is a complete waste of time, since, logically, nothing can be predicted if we have free will. Can anyone help me figure this out? It actually set off an existential crisis in me a few years back; I literally could not see much point in living if every experience we have is preordained; at that point, I chose to believe we have free will and that astrology was only good for being a psychological tool for self-actualization. Anyway, since then, I've gotten in to horary, which I question every single day. I want to believe in prediction because there are some things I want so badly (dont we all want some things so badly) and I want to know if I am investing my hopes into something for nothing. So can somebody explain to me what I'm missing- how can events in ones life be predicted if we have free will?

Hi Lucedelsole,

Your natal chart defines who and what you are. Choices you think you are making based on free will aren't really based on free will at all. Instead they're based on your attempts to fulfill needs and wants that have not been met. Psychologically, as you grow during childhood you have needs and wants that will be satisfied in whole or in part, or not at all. As an adult, you spend most of your time trying to fulfill the void left by those needs and wants that were not fulfilled during your childhood. One might crave attention, because one did not get enough attention as a child, or because one didn't get any attention at all, for example. Those things are easily seen in your natal chart.

Your life isn't completely preordained, but because the choices you thought you were making based on free will were really based on fulfilling needs and wants that have gone unmet, you're steering yourself down a certain path, which is predictable.

I don't know about horary astrology, but my understanding was that it is to be used for certain special events.
 

AJ Astrology

Well-known member
So then, if someone comes to you, saying their child has leukemia. Do we just look at the charts and determine if the child is going to live or die? No use going to all of the time and expense of treatments and prayers if it is absolute and determined already. :crying:

Hi katydid,

Yes, looking at the charts to determine if the child is going to live or die would be a good starting point, and great practice for astrology. I would never advise withholding treatment for any disease or illness, regardless of what the charts said.

As far as prayer goes, I don't really want to get into the cruelty of a god who would grant prayers for some parents, but not all parents. However, the fact that some prayers are granted, while others are not, suggests we don't really have free will.
 

rahu

Banned
Quantum experiments have shown that matter is a illusion. Hence the physical world is a illusion. Roger penrose, a dean of quantum theory believes that human qualities are a function of the quantum frequency. So concepts of free Will versus predestination are moot. My belief is that free will is only excercised when the soul chooses which abilities and karma to work with and through each incarnation. My belief is that a very small percentage of ones life can be affected by free Will .predictions work because life is conditioned for the most part. So it is not a question of free will or predestination, both exist and function in their respective time and place.
rahu
 
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david starling

Well-known member
We can't choose WHAT choices are available to us at any given time, but we CAN pick and choose among those that are. Astrology can better the odds of making the right choices when intuition, intelligence, and experience don't provide enough guidance. As in the case of otherwise unforeseen difficulties or unexpected opportunities.
 
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Oddity

Well-known member
So then, if someone comes to you, saying their child has leukemia. Do we just look at the charts and determine if the child is going to live or die? No use going to all of the time and expense of treatments and prayers if it is absolute and determined already. :crying:

Wow. See, you already brought up this stupid argument in a past thread because you think other astrologers cannot read charts.

Will you tell the kid's parents that his soul obviously chose for him to get leukaemia?

Let's not do it again.
 

katydid

Well-known member
Wow. See, you already brought up this stupid argument in a past thread because you think other astrologers cannot read charts.

Will you tell the kid's parents that his soul obviously chose for him to get leukaemia?

Let's not do it again.


I don't think it is a stupid argument. And I don't believe that it is absolute that it can be seen for certain what every outcome will be. I do believe in miracles and twists.

I would never tell the parents that his soul chose to have leukemia/ Why would I do that?
 

katydid

Well-known member
If a child is very ill then it is up to his parents to get him medical help. They have the free will to do so, or not.

So I do not believe that there is NO FREE WILL> A couple can decide not to follow certain medical advice OR they can accept the chemo or the radiation or the surgeries.

So Free Will has an impact. They can decline or they can fight the illness with treatment. So how can one say there is 'no free will?'
 

david starling

Well-known member
Oddity, I'm wondering about Zoller blaming his bout with polio on Saturn in Leo in H6 opposing his Sun and Mercury in H12. Does it have to do with the Four Humours?
(And what's OSM stand for?) :lol:
 
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Cap

Well-known member
Philosophy of determinism has been proven wrong by quantum physics. It is possible to have both free will and astrological prediction simultaneously, because prediction is based on PROBABILITY. Astrology can show us what is most likely to happen - there is no 100% certainty. There is always a "wild card" of free will.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jint5kjoy6I
 

david starling

Well-known member
If a child is very ill then it is up to his parents to get him medical help. They have the free will to do so, or not.

So I do not believe that there is NO FREE WILL> A couple can decide not to follow certain medical advice OR they can accept the chemo or the radiation or the surgeries.

So Free Will has an impact. They can decline or they can fight the illness with treatment. So how can one say there is 'no free will?'

Katydid, we can't choose what choices are available to us. But we can choose the best AVAILABLE course of action. Some believe prayer or even suicide, is a better choice than medical treatment, in the case of a "terminal" illness. But a child isn't free to choose, and has to rely on the "free choice" of adults. I think predictive Astrology should focus on separate CHOICES, not on a fatalistic "Final Outcome". On:WHICH AVAILABLE CHOICE has the best CHANCE of succeeding?
I guess what I believe is that we have "Free Choice", rather than "Free Will", which implies unlimited options.[IMO]
 

david starling

Well-known member
Philosophy of determinism has been proven wrong by quantum physics. It is possible to have both free will and astrological prediction simultaneously, because prediction is based on PROBABILITY. Astrology can show us what is most likely to happen - there is no 100% certainty. There is always a "wild card" of free will.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jint5kjoy6I

Again, "free choice" (which includes inaction) regarding available options, not "free will", which implies unlimited options[IMO]. The "wild card" would be something inexplicable to our current level of understanding, or an unexpected addition to what choices are available. It's all about asking the right specific questions, and probabilities.
 
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Oddity

Well-known member
I don't think it is a stupid argument. And I don't believe that it is absolute that it can be seen for certain what every outcome will be. I do believe in miracles and twists.

I would never tell the parents that his soul chose to have leukemia/ Why would I do that?

I've seen you say that to people in this forum who have difficult charts and are going through a difficult time. I'm glad you don't do it to your clients, too, especially since it is your personal belief, not theirs, and it is upsetting people to hear.

I have done a lot of medical astrology in my career. And I have been in this situation, a few times. I would like to think that even from the charts I've read on this forum, you could see that I try to work with people, not terrorise them.

David, I get what you're saying about 'choice', but, God forbid, your kid is dying. Are you going to not help him? I expect that wouldn't be the case. It likely wouldn't for any parent who'd go so far as to consult an astrologer.
 
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katydid

Well-known member
I've seen you say that to people in this forum who have difficult charts and are going through a difficult time. I'm glad you don't do it to your clients, too, especially since it is your personal belief, not theirs, and it is upsetting people to hear.

I have done a lot of medical astrology in my career. And I have been in this situation, a few times. I would like to think that even from the charts I've read on this forum, you could see that I try to work with people, not terrorise them.

David, I get what you're saying about 'choice', but, God forbid, your kid is dying. Are you going to not help him? I expect that wouldn't be the case. It likely wouldn't for any parent who'd go so far as to consult an astrologer.

And it's not upsetting to tell parents their child's imminent death is foretold, and no matter what they do, treatment or no treatment, it is already set in stone, their kid is doomed?

I would find that much more upsetting then being told a philosophical belief about a soul choosing one's future incarnation.
 

katydid

Well-known member
David, I get what you're saying about 'choice', but, God forbid, your kid is dying. Are you going to not help him? I expect that wouldn't be the case. It likely wouldn't for any parent who'd go so far as to consult an astrologer.


Help him? How? If it is a matter of fatalism, no free will, then how the heck can you help the kid? If you can look at his chart and say absolutely, no chance he can live, then how can you help him by getting him treatment? Isn't it cruel to put him and the family through that if it is of no use at all?
 

Oddity

Well-known member
And it's not upsetting to tell parents their child's imminent death is foretold, and no matter what they do, treatment or no treatment, it is already set in stone, their kid is doomed?

I would find that much more upsetting then being told a philosophical belief about a soul choosing one's future incarnation.

Once again, Katydid, I do not terrorise people who come to me for astrological help. Just because you cannot imagine that, it does not make your beliefs true.

I've seen people here PLENTY upset to be told their soul chose to do this to them. Maybe you really believe that. That's fine. A lot of folks don't, and there is no reason nor justification to try to push your belief system onto others. You might find it comforting, but many people do not.

As to the matter of astrological prediction, it works on a stochastic model, just like medical prediction does. That's because humans are not omniscient.

I don't know any astrologers who act the way you're accusing me of acting, and could easily see that I don't do that if you ever read my posts, though I realise that is probably too much to ask.

You don't know anything about predictive astrology. And since you don't, it might be constructive not to assum the worst about predictive astrologers.
 

rahu

Banned
I have no idea what you mean by quantum frequency because I haven't studied quantum theory. I'm assuming you mean that there are an infinite amount of different frequencies which would be like vehicles(?) for the soul to catch a ride on or incarnate into in order to learn/evolve? That this is how the soul excercises free will? But the frequencies are unchanging therefore there is no free will in the physical but only outside of it? Very interesting.

Quantum theory has shown your concept of vehicle is obsolete. Matter is not the basis of reality. Quantum theory is based on experimentation. Physicist don't know what the quantum framework is and for that matter there could be asystem of dynamics underlying the quantum system.
Quantum mechanics is counter intuitive to everything we have been programmed to believe by standard model scientific thought. So the various constructs you hypothisize have no reality. one is left only to ones beliefs. Quantum experiments have shown that what you believe causes what you see. If you see free will, it exists. if you don't see free will, it doesn't exist.
rahu
 
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