death and horary

I don't know a lick of horary but I'm trying to learn. Yes or no questions are one thing, but what about asking the question When will he die? what indicators would you look to in the chart?

EDITED: I posted the wrong chart so my assumptions on the querent do not apply.

Should I ask again with a whole new chart or does the question still stand with this one now that the year is the right one?

Are ethical considerents respected for this question?

Is the 7th house proper for the quesited? (isn't there any other more specific house to represend him)
Death = turned 8th house (ruler/cusp/etc) from the quesited house

Are data in chart his natal data, or you mistake year when you input data in astroprogramm?
Read also this post of this forum you can learn a lot about question about dieing.
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2525

I notice now that the question was asked back in 2000.

Saturn culminating might suggest the death, but as the question was specifically phrased when I would take it as an indication of "later than expected".

As for the exact timing this can be indicated by several methods, described in the books of modern authors as Lehman, Frawley, Louis or more classical ones, or even others. Timing is always trickier than simple yes/no questions.

So, what is the certain quesited house? (any background information available to help idetify astrological elements involved?)

OMG! You're right I made a mistake on the date. I meant 2008. I guess that means I have to ask again with a whole new chart? Or maybe I can still use the one that I meant to post. I hope the question will still be valid. I'm posting the chart I meant to post up at the top.

Uh oh.

In this new chart I'm still mercury but at the end of a sign. There are no planets in the 8th house of death, but uranus is about to enter the 8th and it is currently in the querent's area of house 7. Meaning death may come soon?

erm... I know that the ruler of the signs signify the querant and the asker, but I don't know what to do when the first and seventh houses also have other planets in them, which is the case now.

Now, chart is OK, because it reflect moment when you ask the question. Because you ask "when will he die" you must tell us is "he" your partner, your friend or someone else, that is nessesary to pick up right house an its ruler. Also it i simportant to know if death is certain or not. Bur, if you ask question only for learn, not that you are really intersted in answer about some person's death, you can not expect that answer of chart will be correct.

Hi,
I'm picking up here on Radu's comment about ethics. It really does depend who is the quesited and why the question is being asked.Not just in regard to rulerships, but ethics.Should say *he* for example, be a rival your reasons for asking might be dubious. If *he* is a sick friend, that's different (maybe).
You really do need to provide more information here, delilah4.And also, what do you intend to do with this information, is of course an issue.
Cheers,
Lillyjgc

Yes Delilah, Fensi is right, we do need to know far more background than you gave us like: Who is he, friend, brother, child, nephew, father, etc.
Has this person been ill for a long time? What have the doctors told you or him. The more background information, the better the chart can be assessed.
Death is a very difficult thing to predict, if at all.
John Frawley (whom Radu mentioned) says about this:
"The great thing with this question is that the event is certain so we know that there must be a timing in the chart somewhere" this means we can set aside many of the usual rules. We can ignore prohibitions: they can be taken to show events along the way. We can push our significators as far as we need through sign after sig. there are only two barriers that we cannot allow our significators to pass:
* a conjunction with the Sun
* a station (when a planet "stands still" before going retrograde or forward after retrogradation

The ruler of the man and the ruler of house 8 should make an aspect and I suppose the amount of degrees will tell how many days, week, months of years it will take. It is all very very tricky I find. Asking when a person will die can be very unethical in many cases (like "when will he die, because I need his money"). Personally I dont even answer these sort of questions because I can be totally wrong in my prediction as timing is the most difficult thing to tackle in horary and because I dont think we need to know. There is no ethical reason for anyone to know when someone is going to die, except maybe if you are asking about a dictator and you want him to stop torturing his people!or when the person him/herself desperately asks this question because they WANT to die, being in agonizing pain for instance.

If you want to investigate more, please do go to certain links provided in this forum or see if you can get one of the books mentioned by Radu. When we want to learn about horary, at least having one good book is essential I think.
Cheers, Starlink

yes, I would also want to know if you work for an insurance company, and use astrology to take a decision on your clients

lol. Well, no insurance companies here. The person I ask about is an ex-lover who once said he was going to kill himself BECAUSE he was ill & dying. I shooked it off as him being melodramatic as he wasn't the most honest person and I broke up with him. I haven't seen him in a long time so I don't really know what that makes him. He is not in my life anymore. If it weren't for the local papers not mentioning anything he could have already been dead for all I know.

However I am concerned about the matter and decided to use this also as an opportunity to learn because, like the rest of us it is not a matter of IF he will die, but WHEN. If it says sooner than later then perhaps what he told me was true, if it says later than I still get to see how time works in a chart.

Since he was an ex perhaps he is still a 7th house issue?

Hi Delilah, Heres an extract from william Lilly Christian astrology on the matter and the means to determine longevity:

If the Querent is likely to live long yea or not.

Many men and women have not the time of their Nativities, or know how to procure them, either their Parents being dead, or no rememberance being left thereof; and yet for divers weighty considerations they are desirous to know by a question of Astrology, whether they shall live long or not?, whether any sicknesse is neer them? , what part of their Life is like to be most happy? together with many other such Queries people doe demand incident to this house.

Signs of Health or Long Life.


[SIGNES OF HEALTH.]
In the Question you must consider if the Sign ascending, the Lord thereof, and the Moon be free from misfortune, viz. if the Lord of the Ascendant be free from Combustion of the Sun, from the

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[/FONT]Square, Opposition or Conjunction of the Lord of the 8th, 12th, 6th or 4th House, if he be Direct, in Essentiall Dignity, Swift in Motion, or Angular, especially in the 1st house, (for in this question he is best placed therein) or 10th, or else in the 11th, or 9th House, and in a good aspect with Jupiter or Venus, or the Sun, or in the Termes of Jupiter and Venus, it’s an argument of Health and long life to the Querent, for the Lord of the Ascendant, or Ascendant it selfe unfortunate or Moon in bad houses afflicted, show mischiefe at hand; the aforesaid Significators tree, argue the contrary: for as youconsider the Lord of the Ascendant, so the Ascendant is to be considered, and what aspect is cast unto it, viz. good or evil, and by what Planet or Planets, and of what house or houses they are Lords of.

[SIGNES CONTRARY, VIZ. OF SICKNESSE, DEATH, &C. MISFORTUNE.]
It’s generally received, that if the Lord of the Ascendant be under the Sunbeams, or going to Combustion, which is worse then when he is departing, or the Moon cadent and unfortunated by any of those Planets who have dominion in the 8th or 6th, and either the South Node, Saturn or Mars in the Ascendant or 7th House, peregrine or in detriments, or retrograde, or if there be in the degree ascending, or in that degree of the Signe wherein the Lord of the Ascendant is, or with the Moon, or with that Planet who afflicts any of those; I say, any Fixed Starre of violent influence or nature of the Planet afflicting, or nature of the Lord of the 8th or 6th House, then you may judge the Querent is not long lived, but neer some danger, or shall undergoe some misfortune in one kind or other, according to the quality of the Significator and Signification of that or those houses they are Lords of.


The Time When Any of These ACCIDENTS Shall Happen.

You must see if the Lord of the Ascendant be going to Combustion, or to Opposition or Conjunction of the Lord of the 8th or 4th, how many degrees he is distant from the Sun, or Lord of the 8th or 4th, and in what Signe either of them are in; if the space betwixt them be eight degrees, and in a common Signe, it denotes so many moneths; if in a fixed signe, so many yeers; if in a moveable, so many weeks: this is onely for example, and in

Secondly, having considered the Lord of the Ascendant, see how many degrees the Moon is also distant from any Infortune, or from the Lords of the 6th or 8th, and in what Signe or Signes, their Nature, Quality and House wherein they are posited..

Thirdly, consider if there be an Infortune in the Ascendant, how many degrees the Cusp of the house wants of that degree the unfortunate Planet is in, or if the unfortunating Planet be in the 7th, how many degrees the Ascendant wants of his true Opposition, and compute the time of Death, Sicknesses or Misfortune according to the dimension of degrees in Signes moveable, common, or fixed..

If you find the Lord of the Ascendant afflicted most of all by the Lord of the 6th, and in the 6th, or if the Lord of the Ascendant comes to Combustion in the 6th, you may judge the Querent will have very many and tedious sicknesses, which will scarce leave him till his death; and the more certain your judgment will be, if the Lord of the Ascendant, and the Lord of the 8th and the Moon be all placed in the 6th.

If you find the Lord of the Ascendant, the Signe ascending, or Moon most principally impedited or unfortunated by the Lord of the 8th, or that Planet who afflicts your Significators out of the 8th, then you may judge that the sicknesse with which he is now afflicted, or is shortly to be troubled withall, will end him, and that his death is approaching or that death is threatened..

But if you can find that the Lord of the Ascendant, or Signe of the Ascendant, or the Moon are chiefly afficted by the Lords of some other houses, you shall judge his misfortune from the nature of the house or houses whereof the Planet or Planets afflicting are Lords; and the first original thereof, or discovery, shall be signified from something, Man or Woman, &c. belonging to that house wherein you find the Planet afflicting posited, and thereby you shall judge a misfortune and not death: The Fixed Starres I mentioned, being of the nature of Mars, show sudden distempers of

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[/FONT]body, or Feavers, Murders, Quarrels &c. of the nature of Saturn, quartan Agues, Poverty, casuall hurts by fals &c..., of the nature of Mercury, they declare Consumptions,Madness, cozenage by false Evidence or Writings: of the nature of the Moon, Tumults, Commotions, Wind-chollick, danger by Water, &c, of the nature of the Sun, envy of Magistrates, hurt in the Eyes, &c. of the nature of Jupiter, oppression by domineering Priests, or by some Gentleman: of the nature of Venus, then prejudice by some Woman, the Pox, or Cards, Dice and Wantonnesse.

[CAUTION.]
You must carefully avoid pronouncing Death rashly, and upon one single testimony, you must observe, though the Lord of the Ascendant be going to Combustion, whether either Jupiter or Venus cast not some Sextile or Trine to the Lord of the Ascendant, ere he come to perfect Combustion, or any other infortune, for that is an argument that either Medicine or Strength of Nature will contradict that malignant influence, or take off part of that misfortune; but when you find two or more of the rules asforesaid concurring to death, you may be more bold in your Judgement; yet concerning the absolute time of death of any party, I have found it best to be wary, and have as much as I could, refrained this manner of judgement; onely this much by the Question may be knowne, that if you find the Significators, as aforesaid, afflicted, you may judge the man or party inquiring to be no long lived man, or subject to many miseries and calamities, and this I know by many verified examples; the knowledge hereof is of excellent use for such as would purchase any Lease or Office, or thing for Life or Lives, &c. or for those who would carefully in a naturall way prevent those casualties their natures or inclinations would run them into.

Hope this may help you.
Cheers, Lillyjgc

A few thoughts: your ex is represented by Venus, 7th house almutem.

Venus in the turned 6th house, conjunct the South Node and under Sun beams with the Sun ruling the turned 6th house - he REALLY is sick.

Just as Lilly quoted by Lilly said:

If you find the Lord of the Ascendant afflicted most of all by the Lord of the 6th, and in the 6th, or if the Lord of the Ascendant comes to Combustion in the 6th, you may judge the Querent will have very many and tedious sicknesses, which will scarce leave him till his death;

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yet concerning the absolute time of death of any party, I have found it best to be wary, and have as much as I could, refrained this manner of judgement

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With Venus and the Moon (even the 6th house ruler, the Sun, and 8th house ruler, Mercury) in fixed signs, I would consider that death is not close, years away. That should be enough.

A few thoughts: your ex is represented by Venus, 7th house almutem.

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Radu, why you used almuten, not ruler of 7 house?
Thanks for explanation.

fensi88 said:

Radu, why you used almuten, not ruler of 7 house?
Thanks for explanation.

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Using the sign ruler is the easy way of figuring out the significator. It is usually the right way as well as rulership is the strongest essential dignity.
Should one agree to use complicated mathematical calculations (such suming up all essential dignities to find out the almutem) one can decide to the "right" significator.

Look, no jokes now, it's just my way as I find it more logical to always use almutems instead of sign rulers. But hey, I am a virgo and I like calculations. I have no proof that it works better this way. It works though.

Oh, I thought it was cool that the person I'm talking about is a pisces and that the sign on the 7th house is pisces. But since he is an ex I guess that is not to be used.

Horary is very hard to pick up.

Delilah, in this case, where he himself said he wanted to kill himself, why not just ask: "I have not seen my ex for a long time, did he kill himself"? instead of asking "when will he die"? the first question is far more specific.

First off, because I know he hasn't killed himself or else I would've heard something and second just because I wanted to learn how timing plays out in horary. I once saw a horary astrologer say someone's financial situation would remain the same for a period of 7 years and I had no idea how they could tell that from a chart.

because I wanted to learn how timing plays out in horary

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I understand. Timing is really not easy in astrology and depends on many different factors. In the internet you can find a excerpt from John Frawleys book about timing. It is called "How to Beat Time" and you can find it under
http://[URL="http://www.skyscript.co.uk/timing.html"]www.skyscript.co.uk/timing.html[/URL]

There are two ways, the first just looking at the chart and counting the degrees planet A has to travel to make an ingoing aspect with planet B (if they are the two significators of course).
The second, you look it up in the Ephemeries.
I rely on the first more than the second, but when I want to see who moves faster at a certain time, like Venus or Mars, then I look in the Ephemeries.

Then the Moon is a very important timer as well.
If you want to know if the degrees correspond to hours, days, weeks, months or years, then there are also rules for that.

Angular houses (fast, but Frawley says slow unless the planet in it can act fast)
Suddedent houses go medium fast, so that is weeks or month
Cadent houses slow (or fast, read what Frawley has to say about that)

Signs: Fixed go slower, Common go faster and Cardinal go the fastest.

So you have to juggle a bit.

Hope this helps! Cheers, Star.