Breaking a stereotype - with physical aggression

holly

Well-known member
I have a chart here of a friend who is going through an identity problem, of sorts, and I don't really know how to help him.

All of his life, he's been stereotyped as a certain type of person, and that's not who he is on the inside. He's always being called, "nerdy" and feels like no one gives him the respect he deserves. I am worried about him, because I can see him trying to break that stereotype, and prove to everyone who he really is on the inside, by trying to assert his physical superiority.

When people pick on him verbally, he doesn't retaliate verbally, he takes their abuse in silence for a while, but then he snaps and challenges them to a fight. At that point they usually back off, amazed that the situation escalated like that so quickly. People almost seem surprised that he's standing up for himself, and they often try to back out of a fight by saying, "Relax man, we were only joking!" But to my friend, their hurtful comments are far from a joke, and if they have a problem with him, he thinks they should fight him physically.

He started kick-boxing and martial arts so that he would be prepared to fight back against any physical threat. And he wanted to prove to the family and his work mates that he is not someone to be pushed around. But that didn't work. People still push him around. The first impression strangers get of him, is that he is nerdy and that he's an easy target for them to pick on.

He tells me he doesn't want to be a violent person, and he doesn't go around looking for fights, but he thinks the only way he can get people to take him seriously as a man, is to physically fight.

He's doing all he can to let people know he deserves respect and he is not a timid "bookworm" whom they can pick on. But he can't seem to shake that stereotype.

The mystery is, why is he constantly being stereotyped like this?


I have no idea, astrologically, why this is happening. I know who he is. For him to pick up kick boxing seemed natural to me. But everyone else around him scoffed and said, "You?! Kickboxing?! Yeah right!" Is Taurus rising making him appear timid and nerdy? I thought that with a Pluto/Moon conjuction opposite the ascendant, people would KNOW he is not someone to be messed around with.
 

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wilsontc

Staff member
control, to Holly

Holly,

You said:
He's always being called, "nerdy" and feels like no one gives him the respect he deserves.

This "name calling" sounds like one of those bullying kid's games so perhaps your friend is in high school or in something younger. If this is the case, your friend should be aware that the goal of the bullying game is to get attention. All the bully wants to do is to find someone who they can dominate and get other's attention and approval. So the bully calls everyone they can names and see which names "stick" to people. "Nerd" is a common insult, since it doesn't mean anything other than one person doesn't think much of the other.

Astrologically, people with Pluto (transformation, also control) conjunct (energy is combined with) Descendant (others) often face "control or be controlled" situations.

As he gets older he will begin to "own" his energy more and more and so others won't see him as an "easy target". Particularly after the day that someone finally pushes him too far! ;)

In control,

Tim
 

holly

Well-known member
Hi Tim, thanks for helping with this question.

He's 19 years old and working in a very small mechanic's workshop with no more than 10 staff members. A lot of his problems did orginate in high school, but he seems to get the same treatment now in his adult life. The other mechanic's tease him "in fun" but the insults are personal attacks - and they all seem to centre around their impression of him as a nerd.

He then started mechanic theory classes, and on day one, two students he had never met, said to him, "Oh look, this kid must be a nerd, he's bound to get all the questions on the exam right." It's strange how he carries the stereotype around with him against his will.


It's interesting that this situation may not be about physical violence for the sake of asserting himself, but maybe it is a matter of my friend feeling powerless, and wanting to get some power back so that others can't control him.

Thanks very much Tim, for giving me some insight into the situation.
 

starlink

Well-known member
Holly, what is really strange here is the fact that Venus, ruler of his Ascendant and Mars, ruler of his 7th house (the others) are in trine aspect to one another, actually showing good energyflow between him and others!

Do we look a bit further, then we see that the RULERS of Venus and Mars (Mercury and Saturn) square each other, showing that basically relationships should not be difficult for him, but the way he presents himself (Venus in, yes, the bookworm sign and in the bookworm first decanate and dwad!) works out negatively towards a Mars in Capricorn (the others) and in the term of Saturn where Mars is not really feeling great and probably feels inadequate in whatever it is.
The "nerdiness" of your friend, as seen by them, just because your friend is quite a private, maybe shy young man (Moon-Pluto conj., showing often a very dominant mother by the way!!) could trigger their awkwardness within themselves. It is impossible that EVERYbody is nasty to him, (look at yourself for instance who understands his pain), but those who are greatly insecure will probably be "remembered" through him of their own insecurities and that in turn makes them say these things so they feel better.

I think your friend has had quite a traumatic childhood with the ruler of the 4th, his Sun, in the 12th, often seen with youngsters who were left alone often and therefore got used to being alone and even wanting and needing a great amount of privacy lateron in life. His Sun-Neptune square shows his difficulty to form an identity for himself. Ruler of his Sun is that Mars in Capricorn , showing exactly what is also present in "the others". Therefore upon meeting him they feel on a subconscious level, his insecurity. He probably has a bit of a beaten look about him, or does not look people straight in the eye or looks to the floor when walking instead of straigth up. It could be more his way of carrying himself and how he looks out of his eyes, then the fact that he reads much and probably also knows more than the others (which adds to their insecurity of course). Where Chiron is found in the chart, there we see the "wound" of the person often. His is his selfworth.

Having an eight house with a Saturn-Uranus conjunction in it is also showing crisis situations which will occasionally come back in his life and force him to transform his views on life and his position in society(Saturn, ruler of the 9th and Uranus, ruler of his 10th).
I do hope for him that these problems will get solved and that he can learn to defend himself with words, rather than with his fists. He will go through a rough period of selftransformation in the coming years when Pluto goes over his Uranus, Saturn and ultimately, Neptune (squaring his Sun) which could bring major changes for him. When also Saturn has gone through Virgo and reaches Libra, it will oppose his Mercury and trigger the natal square of Mercury to Saturn. This will also not be easy for him.
I hope all will go well with him, notwithstanding the difficulties he will have to face. He will come out of it a much stronger man for sure!

Cheers, Starlink
 

wilsontc

Staff member
mechanics, to Holly

Holly,

You said:
He's 19 years old and working in a very small mechanic's workshop

Now I get it. He has a Talent Triangle focused on his Mercury (thinking) so he very easily "picks things up" in how they work. Mercury is also a planet that has to do with mechanical ability. So the other guys feel dumb around him. That gives them a choice: either THEY are dumber than HIM or HE is just "nerdier" than them. Guess which one they choose? ;)

Nerdily,

Tim

P.S. The thing to watch is his Taurus (physical) modifying Ascendant (self). Taurus energy has a way of sitting there and "taking it"...until it decides it won't take it any more. It takes a LOT to work up a Taurus type of person, but once they decide to take action...they may not want to stop. So, jokes aside, he needs to get control of his anger or he could do someone some serious damage.
 
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gaer

Well-known member
holly said:
I have a chart here of a friend who is going through an identity problem, of sorts, and I don't really know how to help him.

He started kick-boxing and martial arts so that he would be prepared to fight back against any physical threat. And he wanted to prove to the family and his work mates that he is not someone to be pushed around. But that didn't work. People still push him around. The first impression strangers get of him, is that he is nerdy and that he's an easy target for them to pick on.
You said he started kick-boxing and martial arts. I don't know if he will turn out to be good at these things, but I do know that such training, when it works, makes someone lethal. If he gets very good at fighting, he will have to learn self-control. He will have no choice. I just hope he learns confidence. The whole point in becoming powerful in this way is NOT to have to fight.

Gaer
 
gaer said:
You said he started kick-boxing and martial arts. I don't know if he will turn out to be good at these things, but I do know that such training, when it works, makes someone lethal. If he gets very good at fighting, he will have to learn self-control. He will have no choice. I just hope he learns confidence. The whole point in becoming powerful in this way is NOT to have to fight.

Gaer

Gaer,
I have to say i disagree with you on the martial arts......
When learning martial arts you 1. Learn the form.....this doesnt include any fighting, this usually in itself activates the chinese meridian lines in the body, which assists 'balancing' the individual.
2. learn to fight......this is given to you at a rate decided by the teacher, a good teacher will see any lack of discipline and any agro and will delay the process......which is a good thing.

You have to prove yourself to any good teacher before they teach you anything.

I dont think this guy going to learn a martial art is 'dangerous'. It will probably teach him the discipline he needs and will give him a way to let go of some steam in a controlled manner.

I just hope he has a good teacher and i think that is the only place to place concern.

LG
 

gaer

Well-known member
Liquid Green said:
Gaer,
I have to say i disagree with you on the martial arts......
I'm not sure we disagree. :)
When learning martial arts you 1. Learn the form.....this doesnt include any fighting, this usually in itself activates the chinese meridian lines in the body, which assists 'balancing' the individual.
This was actually what I had in mind. Unless you get a teacher who is irresponsible, which of course is always possible, the most important thing actually learned is balance, control, etc. Students often don't know that they will be learning these things.

That's why many people think they are going to learn to be like action fighters in Hollywood movies. What they expect and what they learn is very different.
2. learn to fight......this is given to you at a rate decided by the teacher, a good teacher will see any lack of discipline and any agro and will delay the process......which is a good thing.
Exactly. I'm sorry I did not express myself very well. That's why people who are advanced in such disciplines do not fight with people in every day situations.
You have to prove yourself to any good teacher before they teach you anything.

I dont think this guy going to learn a martial art is 'dangerous'. It will probably teach him the discipline he needs and will give him a way to let go of some steam in a controlled manner.

I just hope he has a good teacher and i think that is the only place to place concern.
I agree with you fully. The only danger would be in getting a teacher who does not know what s/he is doing!

Gaer
 

holly

Well-known member
My sincere thanks to everyone for the work you’ve done on this chart. Not only has your information helped me become better at astrology, but you’ve given a great deal of perspective and insight into a baffling personal problem for my friend. He appreciates the help immensely.

I printed out all of your comments and gave them to him to read. He has a few things to say in reply.


Shining Ray said:
He may think of him self as different to his peers in some way, and people have a way of picking up on our energies, even when we try our best to hide them.

Actually, we both think of ourselves as very different from our peers. Our age group typically likes to go to night clubs, get very drunk, and get into some silly behaviour, and neither me nor my friend are into that. We’re mature for our age and so we don’t really fit in.


Shining Ray said:
Aries is an assertive fighting energy and it is locked up in the 12th house.

He thinks I may have misrepresented the situation in my post. When people attack him verbally, he sits there and “bites his tongue”. His thoughts centre around what he can say in his defence. However, as the verbal attack continues, his thoughts turn toward ending the situation physically. Rarely does it escalate to that point, but he is worried that one day he might not be able to contain his emotions: which may be fear or frustration.


coffee said:
Martial Arts was a good option, but not if it was just a case of self defence, or for purposes of attacking people, just to make himself look superior to people who try to bring him down. I thought they teach self control among other things.

He started martial arts and kick boxing to learn self confidence and self control. It did help him change the way he responded to people’s insults. The martial arts gave him a different outlet for that energy that was building up inside him. So he did mellow out and walk away from a lot more arguments after starting the martial arts than he did before.

The reason why he left the kick-boxing (he now solely practices martial arts) is because he found it too violent, aggressive and ego-orientated. He didn’t want to physically hurt his sparring partner as he didn’t see the point in harming a friend. He also found that he couldn’t recreate the same level of emotion toward a sparring partner that he experienced towards a person bullying him.


coffee said:
What does he find so offensive about being labelled in this way?
What is wrong with being a geek/nerd to him?

He finds it so offensive because he feels like people are judging him without getting to know him, and then insulting him based on the judgement they have made. It’s a label designed to insult and hurt. The intention behind the words is to hurt him.


starlink said:
Holly, what is really strange here is the fact that Venus, ruler of his Ascendant and Mars, ruler of his 7th house (the others) are in trine aspect to one another, actually showing good energyflow between him and others!

He doesn’t have many friends, but the few he does have are of very good quality. Part of the problem there is that he’s not a typical teenager, in that he doesn’t go out to night clubs and drink. He’s very private and prefers his solitude. His friends are the guys he works with, and they pick on him for not drinking too, and that just ties in to the nerdy stereotype. Otherwise he’s very easy to get along with, he’s got a fantastic sense of humour, and handles himself well in social situations.

starlink said:
I think your friend has had quite a traumatic childhood

He just felt left out and was bullied a lot.

starlink said:
Where Chiron is found in the chart, there we see the "wound" of the person often. His is his selfworth.

He is aware of his good qualities. His good qualities are important to him, but he wonders whether they really mean anything to anyone else.


wilsontc said:
Now I get it. He has a Talent Triangle focused on his Mercury (thinking) so he very easily "picks things up" in how they work. Mercury is also a planet that has to do with mechanical ability. So the other guys feel dumb around him. That gives them a choice: either THEY are dumber than HIM or HE is just "nerdier" than them. Guess which one they choose? ;)

Tim, we think you may be spot on with that one! The more I think about it, the more that explanation makes sense. Even I got picked on in school for being intelligent – it seems obvious now! :)


wilsontc said:
P.S. The thing to watch is his Taurus (physical) modifying Ascendant (self). Taurus energy has a way of sitting there and "taking it"...until it decides it won't take it any more. It takes a LOT to work up a Taurus type of person, but once they decide to take action...they may not want to stop. So, jokes aside, he needs to get control of his anger or he could do someone some serious damage.

I think the anger has been building up for many years, as he faced the same issues in school that he is now facing in the adult world. He’s aware that he has a problem and is eager to get it under control, but neither one of us could see what the root of the problem was, or what steps to take to solve it. He’s very grateful for the insight provided by everyone here.


gaer said:
You said he started kick-boxing and martial arts. I don't know if he will turn out to be good at these things, but I do know that such training, when it works, makes someone lethal. If he gets very good at fighting, he will have to learn self-control. He will have no choice. I just hope he learns confidence. The whole point in becoming powerful in this way is NOT to have to fight.

Gaer

You’re absolutely right Gaer. He started the kick boxing and martial arts to develop confidence. The kickboxing was too barbaric so he gave that up and concentrates solely on the martial arts now. He is doing very well at that, and loves the fact that it is a discipline, and focuses on the mind as well as the body.

He wants to be physically strong and capable, but confident and humble. He doesn’t want to be a thug – he wants to be himself but confident in his abilities. Martial Arts supports that.


Shining Ray said:
Maybe he has too much focus on his physical appearance with a Taurus Asc and the ruler of the first house in the 1st, he is focusing on how he appears, physical body. Pluto connecting to the Asc may make him obsess about it.

He does pay a lot of attention to the way he looks, not out of vanity, but because he wants to change the first impression people have of him. He wants his body to send the message that he is tough and powerful to a threat, but friendly and approachable to (potential) friends. He is very interested in body language and has read books on how to appear more approachable and confident.

-------------
Finally, he says, “Thank you. It’s nice to have people offering constructive criticism without passing judgement.”

There’s a great deal of good information here and useful advice. Your help on this matter will really improve his life.
 

smilingsteph

Well-known member
His sensitivity with the way he looks and the way he carries himself could be venus in the first....I know a person with a venus in the first and he is different...not a macho guy but a more refined man who is sensitive about his looks and how he appears to others....which other guys see as a way to push this guy over...
Pluto on the descendant, shows that he gives up his power and control over situations to others...he might just feel like he takes a back seat to the way people treat him, maybe without necessarily becoming verbal about how he feels....yet his taurus rising is one that sits and holds the thought until the anger builds and he releases it...seems like he releases his anger on himself, or his self-esteem.
Sun in the 12th is a private placement, enjoys being alone and private yet his moon in the seventh wants to be able to enjoy meaningful relationships with others...so a few good friends is all he needs, and others may see this as being unpopular...
I have read that uranus in the 8th can indicate a parent that has passed away, or parents that are unavailable for the child, leading to esteem issues...
Not to mention being ninteen is a hard time!
Erickson's stages of development state that this time is where one is trying to find intimacy vs isolation...time to build close meaningful relationships and this may be hard for him to do with his parents, due to a possible lack of father figure...so he may feel isolated, until he is able to find himself worthy of love, and to be loved by others. His self-esteem seems to be wavering a bit, this is normal for the age he is at..pressures of finding education, a job, what to do in life, and to make something of one's self is difficult.
This is where his taurean influence can help him...he has strength behind his personality...others his age might not see it now, as they may feel threatenend by his smarts..He seems like a wise soul, and he may intimidate others based on that....whereas later in a few years others will catch up to him and revere him as a smart person...it is just that others are immature and are afraid of people like your friend, as has broken the age of ninteen stereotype and is wanting more out of life than drinking, and parties...
Good for him!!!! Smart man!!!!
 

Kingsley

Well-known member
Yes I agree that establishing identity will be a concern for this individual at the moment. With understanding developmental stages astrologers can effectively locate the area of the chart which will describe his possible defenses and motivations for such angry behaviour. The information largely revolves around his attachment issues.

He will be attempting to push away from his attachment with his mother's at the moment. It the Sun in 12th speaks about of the lack of role modelling by his father then his challenge to complete the develpmental stage is made more difficult. His Mother has been his main attachment in his life and the chart describes her as contolling. There is nothing wrong with being a controlling parent and there are degrees of "control" that can be either helpful or reinforce the difficlty in his challenge to grow.

Its hard when a parent has done so much for their child and navigated through all manner of experiences to arrive at the teenager phase.

The teenager's chart shows that his attachment with his Mother as intense and the way she might express her personality has much to say about his attachment issues. Breaking free or separating psychologically from such an attachment style will require a great deal of energy. Sometimes that comes out agressively with teenagers and other times passively. One needs to keep an eye on the passive dealings in such a case because teenagers do tend to experiment with their freedom from percieved restrictions in their life; to be independant and individual at this time.

The parents will do well to understand that underneath the aggression or anger there are sensitive issues he is attempting to resolve inwardly at the moment. These developing areas in his psychology have the potential to add the final touches to his personality in his life.

Its is obvious that relationships will be the focus of his learning in life and either he will find a strong transformative partner in life so that he may also transform, or he will find a partner who has the potential to reinforce his pathology related to power and control. Outbursts are the order of the day. Or at least, if someone else is having an outburst he can remain passive about his issues.

It is common psychological knowledge that in the development of character feelings such as anger, the statistics show how overprotective (smothering) parenting styles tend to facilitate authority issues and "biting anger". I am talking in the extreme sense here, and on a scale between underprotective and opverprotective parenting styles.

It may ne that the teenager is stuck between what Dad would do in this case and what Mum would do. Its quite normal for teenagers to reject either parent role models and attempt to "go out on their own"

That is a scary prospect for him seeing that Mum may have been a very strong emphasis with regard to his attachment style. He may fear separating while at the same time be extremely angry that he cannot separate on his own, or that he is generally stuck.

His defenses and ability to organise structural elements in his life presents his underlaying concern. Saturn in between Uranus and Neptune speak much about the outwardly actions (acting out) and in relation to his great sensitivity. Trouble is that he will sense minute disruptions in his relationships and tend to either over comply or to react with emotional manipulation and blaming.

thats enough, its 40 ^c where I am at the moment.

kingsley
 

holly

Well-known member
Thanks for your input, smilingsteph, I appreciate the logical, clear manner in which you read my friend's chart. It sounds very accurate.

Kingsley, thanks for your reply as well. I will pass it on to my friend but I can't garantee that he will want to discuss the relationship he has with his parents but I'm sure your information will help him see another side to his dilemma.
 
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