Hellenistic delineations
- Thread starter tsmall
- Start date
THANK YOU!!!
I have a list of books to order and will do so one at a time whenever possible. Thanks for the library tip! Trouble with ours is that the books are mainly in Greek
While I am fluent in Greek (so helpful with the Hellenistic Astrology terminology btw), it is easier for me to focus in English. And their choice is so limited. I did not know about interlibrary loans. I will ask them. Maybe they can get some translations too.I have been going over skyscript resources and have some more to go over. Once I am done I will shout out if there is something specific I see that I need. You are all wonderful. Thanks a million.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
also
sevenstars astrology
offers TWELVE FREE LESSONS FOR ABSOLUTE BEGINNERS
for specifically HELLENISTIC DELINEATION
with multiple examples http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/
sevenstars astrology
offers TWELVE FREE LESSONS FOR ABSOLUTE BEGINNERS
for specifically HELLENISTIC DELINEATION
with multiple examples http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/
also
sevenstars astrology
offers TWELVE FREE LESSONS FOR ABSOLUTE BEGINNERS
for specifically HELLENISTIC DELINEATION
with multiple examples http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/
Echo...
yes I was guided to it earlier and will be on it shortly! Unless I spontaneously combust in the process! Thank you so much!david starling
Well-known member
Re: Hellenistic deliniations
Indeed. A Thread worthy of study after Christmas!
Ah, well, one step at a time then? Especially when working with a "noob?" To start, it appears that we first need to determine the chart sect? As in, whether the sun has precidence (day chart) or the moon (night chart?) In this instance, it would be the moon, as it is a nighttime chart? We then need to look to see which image (sign) houses the moon, and determine the trigon lord? And of course, next would be to explain what exactly trigon lords are.
Are you able to short-cut this? Otherwise, it could be after Christmas before I can make a thourough study...
Indeed. A Thread worthy of study after Christmas!
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Re: Hellenistic deliniations
A thread rewarding of study at any time including today
Indeed. A Thread worthy of study after Christmas!
A thread rewarding of study at any time including today
Senecar
Well-known member
This being the 'Hellenistic Delineations' Thread and also Traditional Forum, if the date of birth of the victim is ever publicized, then delineation of the chart would use Hellenistic astrological techniques as outlined at the beginning of this thread... and an accurate time of birth would be essential
Not many people seem to know their own accurate time of birth, especially the elder generation.
Senecar
Well-known member
Some one asked me to read for his chart for 2018. I asked his DOB, POB and TOB.
He gave all the info, but for his TOB, the most accurate he could think of is between 6 - 9pm.
I recall reading in a book that twin's life being totally different because they were born 4 minutes apart, and the fast moving stars change the house in that time.
He gave all the info, but for his TOB, the most accurate he could think of is between 6 - 9pm.
I recall reading in a book that twin's life being totally different because they were born 4 minutes apart, and the fast moving stars change the house in that time.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
That's the OP
One step at a time is a more sensible approach than leaping merrily over a chasm
The following are basics of Hellenistic analysis from Valens as translated by Robert SchmidtTo start, it appears that we first need to determine the chart sect? As in, whether the sun has precidence (day chart) or the moon (night chart?) In this instance, it would be the moon, as it is a nighttime chart? We then need to look to see which image (sign) houses the moon, and determine the trigon lord? And of course, next would be to explain what exactly trigon lords are.
To find conditions relevant to the fitness and/or ability of a planet to conduct its business we would commence with assessing conditions that are relative to the horizon, so:
If a planet is in an angular or succedent Whole Sign house then the planet is in a place conducive to the conduct of its business.
Angular Houses = 1,4,7,10: Succedent Houses = 2,5,8.11
If a planet remains angular when using dynamic house system Porphyry then the planet is said to be 'goaded' towards more activity.
If a planet is in a cadent Whole Sign house, then the planet is in a place that is not conducive to the conduct of its business.
Cadent Houses = 3,6,9,12
If a benefic planet is in a cadent house, the beneficence of the planet is turned away from the native (or native’s agenda).
If a malefic planet is in a cadent house, the malevolence of the planet is turned away from the native (or the native's agenda).
Astrologers seem to have had more time available to them two thousand plus years ago... how fortunate they were!
Unfortunately however they lacked computers, so to send and receive messages took weeks, months, if not years, so on balance since we have an online forum, we are in a sense, fortunate! Good also that neither of us has to chisel ancient hieroglyphics onto stone. Merry Christmas and a very Happy New Year
There is software that does all the donkey work available from astrology x files (Curtis Manwaring) http://www.zodiac-x-files.com/ and Rumen Kolev (one of the few living practitioners of Ancient Babylonian Astrology who also just happens to be a software programmer) has this extraordinary product on offer http://alabe.com/placidus.html
The next step according to Schmidt if anyone is interested is:
"The proposed algorithms for both of these ruling planets are not without their interpretive difficulties, although the determination of the lord of the nativity is stated in the Porphyry text itself to be especially difficult. The determination of the domicile master of the nativity is based on a predomination (epikratēsis) argument—that is, we first have to determine which of the two lights is better positioned in the nativity according to several specified criteria. The domicile master of the nativity is then taken as the domicile lord of the image occupied by this light..."
dd78
Well-known member
But if a planet is in 3rd house AND within 15 degrees from IC it`s considered angular = fit to conduct it`s business, anyway?
How about retrograde planets?
Thank you for the links, a lot of interesting information there
dd78
Well-known member
Re: Hellenistic deliniations
Thank you for this great info
In my chart Jupiter is the Oikodespotes,
Jupiter is 32*20 away from the predominator (Ascendant)
does semi-sextile with such an orb count?
NAUTICAL METAPHOR
The ship itself is the native’s life as represented by the Predominator – for you, the Moon
The first and second Trigon aka Triplicity Lords of the Predominator are the Winds that carry the ship to its destiny.
The third Trigon aka Triplicity Lord symbolizes the oars that move the ship.
Oikodespotes aka Domicile Master of the chart is the ship owner and sets the agenda or destiny for the native BUT under the restrictions set by the bound ruler of the Predominator. Your Oikodespotes is your Moon whose bound ruler is Venus
Kurios aka Lord of the nativity is the Captain of the ship aka Executor aka the one responsible to bring the ship to the destination set by Oikodespotes aka Domicile Master.
The Ascendant sign is the “helm” of the ship and represents the physical life.
Domicile Lord of the Ascendant – Saturn – is the Helmsman or the First Officer of the ship.
Lot of Fortune represents everything that befalls the native that is not of his or her own doing.
Domicile Lord of the Lot of Fortune – the Sun – represents the man on the prow of the ship aka Second Officer who is on the look out for things/events that are going to befall the native.
It is important that the Lord of the Lot of Fortune – in this case the Sun - be able to communicate with the Domicile Master – Moon – and the Ascendant/Helmsman – Saturn - Lord of the nativity aka Kurios – i.e. Venus.
Can they communicate? Well, Sun opposes Moon: Moon and Venus are squared by Saturn. Sun and Saturn are sextile by Sign. There is communication
Thank you for this great info
In my chart Jupiter is the Oikodespotes,
Jupiter is 32*20 away from the predominator (Ascendant)
does semi-sextile with such an orb count?
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
The idea you are referring to
is
that a planet within five degrees of the next house cusp
is read as being in the next house
and
it has to do with the different ways of dividing the quadrants into houses.
i.e. there are more than thirty or forty different house systems today
HOWEVER
as tsmall has often remarked
the entire problem is eliminated when you use whole signs for a house system.
The angles remain the same
the distance from the angles determines whether a planet is strong, advancing, or cadent.
And the house cusps are particularly sensitive points in the houses
that's because as dr.farr frequently explains
the meaning of the word "cusp" has changed
i.e.
Using WHOLE SIGN HOUSES
How about retrograde planets?
Thank you for the links, a lot of interesting information there
any retrograde planet is retrograde in a SIGN
Originally, the words "houses" and "signs" were interchangeable.
A planet in the SIGN of Aries was also a planet in the HOUSE of Aries
so that in effect there were no real houses as we know them today.
dd78
Well-known member
The idea you are referring to
is
that a planet within five degrees of the next house cusp
is read as being in the next house
HOWEVER
as tsmall has often remarked
the entire problem is eliminated when you use whole signs for a house system.
The angles remain the same
the distance from the angles determines whether a planet is strong, advancing, or cadent.
Thank you for clarification, I meant 3rd house whole sign, my IC is within boundaries of 3rd house/sign from AC.
I get it now - it`s 15 degrees counterclockwise or 5 degrees clockwise from the angle.
Can cadency be alleviated by other factors?
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Hellenistic astrologers place the planet firmly in a particular house
"a planet in 3rd house" is therefore in 3rd WHOLESIGN HOUSE
for clarification post your chart if you would like to
waybread
Well-known member
Actually a lot of people in ancient times did not know their own birth times. Ptolemy in Tetrabiblos complained about the inaccuracy of time keeping in the 2nd century CE. Vettius Valens gave a couple of methods for estimating the birth time based on other chart factors. Street fair astrologers probably looked at the person's physical appearance and went with that. Manilius (1st century CE) had a kind of fanciful way to predict someone's occupation according to the rising constellation or asterism at birth; but it does suggest that, if the rising constellation or asterism were observed or could be mathematically calculated, you could at least estimate a rising sign. His method seems a bit like the ancient Egyptian method of time-telling, which was based on a fixed star clock and calendar.
Accordingly, Ptolemy scarcely used houses. He didn't mention most of them by name. Valens thought that the part of fortune was highly influential, but if you look at how he used it, it went by sign, not by degree.
If you look at Neugebauer and Van Hoesen, Greek Horoscopes (available as a Google Book) you will see their calculations for dating preserved horoscopes: some for literary sources like Valens, some for archaeological records. A few give ascendant degrees, but not the majority.
I actually don't know how the ancients handled what became our modern problem of time zones, but I believe that each place would have gone by its own local time. This was common throughout the world until the late 19th century, when times were standardized to facilitate train timetables.
Accordingly, Ptolemy scarcely used houses. He didn't mention most of them by name. Valens thought that the part of fortune was highly influential, but if you look at how he used it, it went by sign, not by degree.
If you look at Neugebauer and Van Hoesen, Greek Horoscopes (available as a Google Book) you will see their calculations for dating preserved horoscopes: some for literary sources like Valens, some for archaeological records. A few give ascendant degrees, but not the majority.
I actually don't know how the ancients handled what became our modern problem of time zones, but I believe that each place would have gone by its own local time. This was common throughout the world until the late 19th century, when times were standardized to facilitate train timetables.
dd78
Well-known member
thank you,
I won`t post my chart, but I can attach a snip from Astrofox 8.0
(available here: http://af.cpptea.com/astrofox.php )
Last edited:
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Actually, in ancient times the vast majority were unable to afford an astrologer
Astrologers had wealthy patrons
and those wealthy patrons did know their own birth data
as it was well documented
Astrology in ancient times was not for "the masses"
Obviously, today we have online astrological forums
offering random observations on natal charts
from a mix of unskilled newcomers to astrology
as well as more seasoned amateurs
Few if any professional astrologers frequent online forums
for example
Chris Brennan is a professional astrologer who is a member of our forum
who rarely, if ever posts
instead
we have keen newcomers to astrology
eager to learn by practice
and
that was not on offer in the 2nd Century C.E.
VETTIUS VALENS THE ANTHOLOGY has detailed methodology
for finding the Ascendant http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/vettius valens entire.pdf
best understood by reading the entire text
FREE ONLINE at the foregoing link
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
That link to Astrofox does not workthank you,
I won`t post my chart, but I can attach a snip from Astrofox 8.0
(available here: http://af.cpptea.com/astrofox.php )
however I have viewed your chart on another thread
and it seems you have three planets in 3rd house
keep in mind that
As you posted your question on the Traditional Board
the outers are of no significance
so we just focus on the seven classical planets
i.e.
Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn
of which - in your natal chart - five are located in cadent houses
waybread
Well-known member
One book I highly recommend for anyone who still imagines that ancient astrology belonged just to the elite and wealthy is Frederick Cramer, Astrology in Roman Law and Politics, published in the Memoirs of the American Philosophical Society. Cramer was a classics professor who exhaustively studied extant Roman legal documents and ancient writers' comments on astrology, notably because astrologers were banned from Rome at different times. The legal documents and non-astrologers' writings give a lot of information about how astrology was practiced in ancient Rome.
No, ancient Hellenistic astrology was not just for the elite. It was popular among the masses. It was even practiced by slaves and in street fairs.
In Hellenized Egypt, astrology was practiced by priests, which is why Franz Cumont thought that Firmicus Maternus was either an Egyptian priest himself, or had access to their secret practices.
Cramer gives example after example. See also Tamsyn Barton, Ancient Astrology.
No, ancient Hellenistic astrology was not just for the elite. It was popular among the masses. It was even practiced by slaves and in street fairs.
In Hellenized Egypt, astrology was practiced by priests, which is why Franz Cumont thought that Firmicus Maternus was either an Egyptian priest himself, or had access to their secret practices.
Cramer gives example after example. See also Tamsyn Barton, Ancient Astrology.