A question on Religions

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
sandstone said:
senshi - interesting take on neptune and religion.. one person sees fog while someone else sees a magical entrance to another world.. it is all relative.. people see what they want to see more then what is before them sometimes..

The issue isn't relativism, it's just that Jupiter doesn't have the connotation with trickery and deception that Neptune does.
 

sandstone

Banned
some people might think religion has a connection to trickery and deception.. i think astrology is very much relative as opposed to absolute.
 

Anachiel

Well-known member
some people might think religion has a connection to trickery and deception.. i think astrology is very much relative as opposed to absolute.


Ya, I think astrology is about observation whereas religion is about organization. One is about cognition and the other, control, generally.

Jupiter tends to be associated with religiion, but, traditionally, the "house of God", the 9th, was the house where the Sun joys. Heh, think on that one!

Saturn could also very well rule religion and, probably fits better when it comes to control and/or discipline.

Guess it depends on what religion is doing to people or people are doing to religion. I'm not sure there is a 'one size fits all' planet for religion or belief.

Mercury fits as a patron of astrology very well no matter how you look at that one.
 

Amnesia

Active member
Personally, I also find the definition of atheism given here to be in bad taste. There's no reason why an atheist can't believe in ghosts or anything else, they just can't believe in supreme entities. This definition gets atheism confused with skepticism and while they are very similar (skepticism does tend to lead one to atheism if they were not already there to begin with), one is very much an extreme of the other.

I think religion serves as a very important tool to help people understand morality and tradition. Of course, it is not the only way or should it be, and I don't mean to imply that those without religion are immoral as obviously, even godless pack animals have learned basic morals.



High five! Deism!

Kaiousei no Senshi,

All belief systems whether atheist or not have some degree of skepticism in them. They believe only in their own rigid intellectual views to the exclusion of other things. This is the problem with religion as a belief system in general though - it closes off the individual to experience, to life and limits growth...whatever the beliefs are! They are always barriers to experience and the thing just remains in ones thoughts and dreams. It rarely becomes ones reality. People don't reach the core of their being because they remain on the boundary of their existence.

I think this is why individuals like Lao Tzu and the Buddha were, initially, very hesitant when it came to the task of teaching others - there was every danger that it would be misunderstood and do more damage than it would help. The danger was always that the essential truth of what they were saying would be warped into a lie the moment they spoke it. The question for them was always 'how do I express the inexpressible?' It's an impossible task! Inevitably then they were bound to be misunderstood by some and as with the case with Jesus, Mohammed and people like Heraclitus...they suffered in the same way.

When a person finds the truth themselves then the real morality rises also, otherwise that too remains a program, something they are forcing on themselves or holding in their thoughts. Until then there is always the possiblity for immorality as well as morality - but neither are the ideal and so people live in hypocrisy.

As for tradition we just have to ask 'does it still work?' If it doesn't then discard it. If it does, keep it. A carpenter cannot make a door using broken tools! I'm all for tradition but if we keep things just for the sake of keeping them then there will always be danger and the potential for something to go wrong or not work as it should.
 
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Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
sandstone said:
some people might think religion has a connection to trickery and deception.. i think astrology is very much relative as opposed to absolute.

Yes, some people might think anything, which really makes discussion on relative viewpoints circular and silly.

Anachiel said:
Jupiter tends to be associated with religiion, but, traditionally, the "house of God", the 9th, was the house where the Sun joys. Heh, think on that one!

Saturn could also very well rule religion and, probably fits better when it comes to control and/or discipline.

Guess it depends on what religion is doing to people or people are doing to religion. I'm not sure there is a 'one size fits all' planet for religion or belief.

Well, Saturn and Jupiter tend to have a skeptic/believer dichotomy. People with strong Saturn overtones tend to be more skeptical, whereas people with strong Jupiter overtones tend to be people of faith. There was a blog I read a while ago that illustrated this point really well, but I can't remember where it was to even begin looking for it. -.-

Amnesia said:
All belief systems whether atheist or not have some degree of skepticism in them. They believe only in their own rigid intellectual views to the exclusion of other things. This is the problem with religion as a belief system in general though - it closes off the individual to experience, to life and limits growth...whatever the beliefs are! They are always barriers to experience and the thing just remains in ones thoughts and dreams. It rarely becomes ones reality. People don't reach the core of their being because they remain on the boundary of their existence.

Skepticism is not a bad thing, and I didn't mean to imply it was. It's a needed skill for survival that should be exercised far more than it seems to be.
 
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Moog

Well-known member
Could be this one Kai?

http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/tag/religion/

I don't think Mercury is significant for religion. If interested at all, Mercury would rather talk about or think about religion than do it.

Mercury and Jupiter are planetary enemies in the Vedic tradition. I think possibly because spiritual practice requires a curtailment of mental activity. People talk of quietening the mental chatter (Mercury) and connecting to something beyond (Jupiter).

Very hard thing to put in terms that won't make me sound like a kook to anyone who hasn't followed a mystical tradition, or been a meditator, or had some natural exposure to such experience. But, oh well.

Jupiter is also the natural ruler of the 9th there.
 

Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
Yes! That's the one, Moog! :D

Moog said:
I don't think Mercury is significant for religion. If interested at all, Mercury would rather talk about or think about religion than do it.

I agree with this. Even in magic, Mercury is an important player, but it only represents the calculations and the "planning" involved in it, whereas Venus represents the actual ritual. Just illustrating how Mercury "thinks or talks" about religious activity without participating. :D
 

Moog

Well-known member
Ya, I think astrology is about observation whereas religion is about organization. One is about cognition and the other, control, generally.

I disagree, a genuine religious/spiritual/mystical practice is all about observation too. I see astrology as a form of meditation.

The dogmatic/controlling elements that surround religion are something separate, to me.

It's quite obvious that nefarious forces use religion for their purposes of power and control. But then, they will use anything.

Saturn could also very well rule religion and, probably fits better when it comes to control and/or discipline.
I suppose we could try to get bondage clubs reclassified as churches. :biggrin:

Guess it depends on what religion is doing to people or people are doing to religion. I'm not sure there is a 'one size fits all' planet for religion or belief.
Very much so. That's probably why there are so many religious sects, paths and traditions.
 

Moog

Well-known member
I do think that pointing to one planet and saying 'that's your religion/worldview/idea about the meaning of life, right there' is a bit reductionist.

You have to assess the whole chart. But I do find the location and condition of Jupiter is generally a good indication of how a person thinks or feels about religion. Also the ruler of the 9th, and planets in the 9th or aspecting.

Saturn/Jupiter interacting in the 9th could lead to a kind of disciplinarian religious persuasion. Or other similar configurations.
 

sandstone

Banned
hi senshi - i don't think discussion, or others viewpoints are silly.. i like to consider others views and be respectful at the same time. {Provoking comment deleted by moderator}
 
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Kaiousei no Senshi

Premium Member
hi senshi - i don't think discussion, or others viewpoints are silly.. i like to consider others views and be respectful at the same time. what i do find interesting is an appearance of an attempt by some in the traditionalist camp to want to ignore or negate (silly/insult - pick your word) the role of the outer 3 planets in astrology.

Completely missing the point, sandstone. I didn't say that discussing other viewpoints is silly, I said discussing things in the context of relative viewpoints is silly. You never get anything accomplished because something always means something to someone. Religion may have a connotation of deception to some people, but it also has a connotation of control and organization to others, joy and mirth to others, and arrogance and war to more still, so it really becomes a grab-bag of what planet most accurately portrays religion because somone is going to have an argument for every planet depending on their own pet idea of what religion "really is".
 

sandstone

Banned
i think that is all we really have senshi - our subjective views that we are sharing here with each other.. someone might like to think they are more objective which is fine, but i tend to see folks speaking out of a subjective position more then not.. sure, someone could make an association with every planet in connection to religion, but i think most folks doing astrology for any length of time will appreciate the strong connection with jupiter and religion.. i don't think a planet operates in isolation from any of the others, but this is my wet temperament speaking.. sometimes one comes more to the foreground, while another appears to recede.. i do think it is all relative.. maybe we will have to agree to disagree..
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Saturn could also very well rule religion and, probably fits better when it comes to control and/or discipline.
I suppose we could try to get bondage clubs reclassified as churches. :biggrin:
Let's do our best... Opus Dei anyone?:smile:
Guess it depends on what religion is doing to people or people are doing to religion. I'm not sure there is a 'one size fits all' planet for religion or belief.

Mercury fits as a patron of astrology very well no matter how you look at that one.

QUOTE
Suppose I ask you: "What planet has to do with rites of purification, piety and religious observance?"

Hellenistically speaking, your answer should be: "Venus
" - Robert Schmidt
 
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Moog

Well-known member
Let's do our best... Opus Dei anyone?:smile:


QUOTE
Suppose I ask you: "What planet has to do with rites of purification, piety and religious observance?"

Hellenistically speaking, your answer should be: "Venus
" - Robert Schmidt

That is interesting. From what I can gather from my very patchy take on history, Venus and equivalent goddesses seem to have dominated the religious culture of many of those ancient societies.

Perhaps because she's so very bright?
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
That is interesting. From what I can gather from my very patchy take on history, Venus and equivalent goddesses seem to have dominated the religious culture of many of those ancient societies.

Perhaps because she's so very bright?
The ancient astrological delineation of Venus is interesting Moog... I agree that Venus is very bright and therefore rather obvious in the night sky! Here's a comment made by Deborah Houlding at this link http://www.skyscript.co.uk/venus2.html:smile:

"Brilliant, awe-inspiring Venus is the most glorious object in the heavens, barring the Sun and Moon. Never more than 48° from the Sun, she can't be seen in the midnight sky, though unlike elusive Mercury, reveals herself magnificently in the periods between her helical risings and setting, often bright enough to be seen in daylight. As an evening star, Venus appears in the west in the period following sunset. As she draws close to the Sun she disappears from view in her helical setting, circling the Earth invisibly masked by the Sun's light. As Venus moves ahead of the Sun, she eventually becomes visible again in the east, in her heliacal rising shortly before sunrise" Deborah Houlding
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

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