Chart of my friend who committed suicide

After a couple of months of severe postpartum depression on Monday 2/7/10 my friend quietly took her life. She leaves behind a husband and 3 month old baby girl. We had kind of lost touch over the last year or two so I wasn't aware of her depression. Her husband said they tried everything but nothing seemed to help her recover. The poor man is blaming himself. I am trying to make sense of this astrologically, and would appreciate insites on her chart. I know there is a lot of discussion on suicide, so maybe this will help from a learning standpoint or possibly help others recognize this.

Natally she has a T-square from Saturn to her Moon Pluto Opposition which shows a tendency towards depression and low self esteem. I am guessing problems with her mother as well...

Natal Pluto rules 12th and
Moon rules 8th -

Transits the day of her passing: Wow, very troubling...

Tr Saturn conjunct Pluto
Tr Pluto opposite Saturn
Tr Pluto square Pluto
Tr Jupiter square Pluto
Tr Saturn square Saturn
Tr Mars square Mars

Tr Uranus 4th H
Tr Moon 12th
Tr Mars 8th

I can see the connection with depression (Saturn) with Pluto and death. I wonder if the Mars square Mars is what set her over the edge? I don't know how she passed as I didn't want to ask her poor husband. I suspect drugs although wouldn't Neptune be involved??

As for Progressions and the natal promise...yes, she had some emotional problems as stated above, and she had challenging aspects in her progressions that probably were activated by the above transits.

Anyone?

If you can't see this attachment, perhaps someone could tell me how to attach a thumbnail from asto.com....

I am sorry to hear this devastating news.

Several tutorials can be found in the Help with the forums and suggestions board, including Attaching Chart as a Thumbnail! and Step by Step guide on -- How to insert an image here? --. I personally prefer to use the second method because there is a limit to the file size when you upload a natal chart as a thumbnail/attachment.

I can upload the chart if you encounter difficulty, since I already created it on astro.com.

Arian Maverick

Hi Arian,
Thank you so much for your response and the links to downloading images. I couldn't find the directions for this to save my life!
The thumbnail did not work for me, however, I think the other way should do the trick. Please let me know if comes through on your end!

Glad to see that you are back!
Vista

oh, I guess I did attach a thumbnail...wellwhat do you know! Woo hoo!

Suicide/depression seems to be quite elusive in charts, in that what sends one person over the edge gives another the will to win!

To me, what leapt out at me was - as you have mentioned - her T-square between Moon, Pluto and Saturn, which is very tough indeed. And the rising energy in her environment seems to me to be the close square between tr Saturn and tr Pluto - itself interacting closely with her t-square. Notice also that she has 2 yods in her natal chart, both of which were activated directly at the time of her death, since her natal Saturn is found in both yods....... and natal Saturn was being closely squared by tr Saturn, and opposed by tr Pluto.

Neptune natally on her Asc from the 12th house is also part of one yod.
Yikes, poor woman. Hers would have been a heavy existence IMO. And with Moon 29 in Pisces in the 4th house!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have a theory re post partum depression, as apart from just everyday depression. A woman with post partum depression generally is `tuning in' to her own mother's emotional state from the time she herself was born. With Moon in Pisces in the 4th, her mother would have been majorly unavailable to her emotionally as she was growing up, so much so that she may have (at an unconscious level) believed herself to be unlovable. Also, it is highly probable that her own mother experienced PPD after she herself was born. Had she ever brought to her conscious mind her feelings from just after she was born, she may have been able to work on this at a conscious level - may. But the Moon is under fire from a square to Saturn, and the opposition to Pluto, both of which confer a strong sense of need for love, or for regular reassurances that they are loved.
When your friend gave birth, I suspect that her unconscious memories of her post-birth life were triggered, and this may have just been too much, too painful for her to bear.

The real fear she may have been harbouring could have been that were she to have continued living, she may have `harmed' her daughter in the same way that she had perceived herself to be have been harmed........ i.e. by a form of emotional detachment, or neglect.

I am sad that she took her life, and that her daughter will have to grow up without her. This is indeed a tragedy.

Yes, that's a great tragedy for her, her poor husband and her poor little daughter!

As to the chart I want to point out the aspects between Saturn and Lilith. These aspects are always delicate ones. Here, Saturn opposites Lilith, and also he is the dispositor of the house (1st) where Lilith sits in.
Then Pluton transits her natal Lilith, Pluton tr conjuncting Venus. I saw already in another chart, that Venus must not be always a benefic situation, because in that chart I remember, Venus was transitting the Part of Fortune in the 12th and a very great accident happened for the person. Venus in that case could have only mean that the outcoming of this accident was fortunate.

So, I'll come back to your chart, Vista.
Lilith in the Asc and Asc-sign of Saggitarius, that could be a desire of liberation. As Neptune conjuncts by the 12th her Asc, she didn' know, perhaps, where to go, what next direction she had to take. It was not clear for her.

Saturn in the 7th is exalted here by house, and in square to Pluton on the MC, could show some difficulties in her matrimonial relation and perhaps in their sexuality.

As the POF is in the 6th in Taurus, and Mars in Taurus in the 5th oppositing Mercury in the 11th, house of the future, perhaps, quite as a Taurus-one she turned around over the same thinkings, in the way, how does her love changes, how to assume her new family life (Uranus transits her Moon in the 4th - what means changings and even, together with Uranus abrupt changes in her home).
Or, she remembered another crash which broke a gestation period (natal Uranus in 11th).

One day, I think you can talk with her husband and that would be certainly a good medication for him.
Good luck - also for you.

Sunny

Very sad.

She had natal Pluto being transited by Saturn, opposed Moon which is now being transited by Uranus.

It seems that this tension between Saturn and Uranus is too much for some people: Alexander McQueen just commited suicide, and he had natal Sun oppposed natal Pluto, both caught in conjunctions to the transiting Saturn and Uranus opposition. In both cases, oppositions between luminaries and natal Plutos were triggered by the transit. Of course, not all people with the configuration will be sent to suicide, but the pressure of Pluto+Saturn+Uranus can be of tremendous emotional turmoil and transformation, and sometimes the native is not ready to face all those changes. With Pluto in a combo, there's always a death to be dealt with, always something to let go, and for some it gets on the verge of unbearable.

I've noticed that it's rather common to go through panic attacks when natal Saturn is transited by Pluto, or natal Pluto transited by Saturn. In general the panic comes from the native being faced with changes that s/he must do in their lives but seem too much, too big for them to go through. Panic comes from the terror of knowing the change to be done but feeling inadequate, unable to perform the change. Add Uranus and a luminary to this and the native can actually desire death as a relief and a way out of the tension.

I hope the best for husband and child. Hope they can overcome the sadness and not feel guilty, since it was her choice, not theirs.

R4ven, Sunny, and RockFish,
Thank you all for taking time to reply with such interesting and detailed opinions about her Chart. It was very kind of you all.

R4VEN,
I missed both Yods with Saturn being present in both configurations. I find your theory about PPD very interesting and actually pretty accurate. She did not have a good relationship with her mother and in fact, had been in counseling since I have known her. To me, she always seemed to be able to reach out if she needed help. In some ways, I am a little surprised she didn’t try harder to resolve the problem. She also did suffer with self esteem problems; yet again it was something she seemed to have worked through. I don't know if this had anything to do with it or if she was searching for validation through her career, but she did always seem to be searching for something new career wise. She went to school 3 times, first for pre med with a Bachelor in Science, then for her MBA, and then finally for an RN. Nothing seemed to make her happy. The nursing was the most recent and something I thought would be the best fit for her as she would be helping people which would make her feel needed.

Sunny,
I'm glad I included Lilith in her chart as I though it might have something to do with what happened to her. As I mentioned above, she was driven to find something fulfilling career wise, but I don't know if she did in the end. I was under the impression her marriage was a pretty happy one, but then again some people will hide things for the sake of appearances. I don't know if that was the case or not. Clearly with Saturn there in the 7th would say that she takes the marriage commitment very seriously. Perhaps with the baby it was too much to handle. Hopefully I will be able to talk to her husband one day.

Rockfisth,
Yes, she had some really unbelievably hard transits happening at the time of her death. I had wondered about Alexander McQueens chart and his suicide. I was curious to see if he had a similar chart configuration or transits as my friend. This was really an eye opener astrologically in that when I see natal chart configuration like this and these type of transits I will be aware of the potential. Thanks again for the kind words.

I had a counselor once tell me that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem and leaves your loved ones behind in complete devastation.

Thank you all again for your astrological perspectives on her sad passing. It was very much appreciated.

Vista

Sorry to hear this sad loss
I have found that Pluto aspects are more often those which give us survival skills

Saturn seems to be a planet which can be experianced as depression during certian transits or it is even a life thing for some

My eye went straight to Neptune on the ascendant and the Saturn Moon square.

Saturn Moon natally is the most challenging aspect in my opinion. My late grandmother had it and she found her whole life difficult

Saturn Moon comes into the world feeling that their emotional needs are not going to be met.

Perhaps having a child brought up your friends own childhood experiance of this and it was too painful

Neptune on the ascendant can come in with the feeling that they are not really fully incarnate

But my feeling is that the Saturn Moon would have played a large part in this ladys sad departure

Vista said:

I find your theory about PPD very interesting and actually pretty accurate. She did not have a good relationship with her mother and in fact, had been in counseling since I have known her. To me, she always seemed to be able to reach out if she needed help. In some ways, I am a little surprised she didn’t try harder to resolve the problem.

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Vista, thank you for your detailed feedback. Sometimes my posts get a bit hair-brained, but the PPD issue is one which I have observed often. My mother had PPD with me - it was severe - and I had it after my eldest was born. In me it manifested as a kind of complete emotional shut-down where I cleaned and washed and looked after my baby's physical needs, but could not `connect' with him. That child (now an adult) also has Moon at 29 Pisces, and Moon opp Pluto in a t-square - but fortunately for him with Mercury, and not the dreaded Saturn. However he experienced quite life-threatening depression until his mid-20's. Fortunately, both my son and I were aware of what lay between us, and we plugged away at it with one another. It was excruciating, but it eventually `unlocked' the core issues between us.

Vista, I doubt that your friend would have reached the true source of her mother-issues in counselling. I have a professional counselling qualification, and it is quite a limited resource, in that unless a counsellor is truly `tuned in', they will not be able to have the client reach into those pre-verbal memories.

Natasha said:

Sorry to hear this sad loss
I have found that Pluto aspects are more often those which give us survival skills

Saturn seems to be a planet which can be experianced as depression during certian transits or it is even a life thing for some

My eye went straight to Neptune on the ascendant and the Saturn Moon square.

Saturn Moon natally is the most challenging aspect in my opinion. My late grandmother had it and she found her whole life difficult

Saturn Moon comes into the world feeling that their emotional needs are not going to be met.

Perhaps having a child brought up your friends own childhood experiance of this and it was too painful

Neptune on the ascendant can come in with the feeling that they are not really fully incarnate

But my feeling is that the Saturn Moon would have played a large part in this ladys sad departure

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Hi Natasha,
Thank you for replying! Everything that all of you have written have been very helpful. It's almost as if each of your observations add's one more piece to the puzzle.

Saturn Moon(and the Sun) in challenging aspect is very interesting to me in particular because I always attract people in my life who have this natally or their Saturn challenges my Sun or Moon. It's the most interesting thing...The second aspect I see is that many, many of my friends seem to have their Sun or Moon in challenging aspect to Pluto. One astrologer told me that i attract "wounded" people to me because I am very empathic and physic myself. It's almost as if they know that I will be an ear to listen to. It's true!

I never thought about the Neptune conjunct from the 12th house that way. That's quite interesting. Thank you for that as i love learning new things in astrology!

Again Natasha, thank you for you kind words!! There is a lot to think about here...
Vista

R4VEN said:

Vista, thank you for your detailed feedback. Sometimes my posts get a bit hair-brained, but the PPD issue is one which I have observed often. My mother had PPD with me - it was severe - and I had it after my eldest was born. In me it manifested as a kind of complete emotional shut-down where I cleaned and washed and looked after my baby's physical needs, but could not `connect' with him. That child (now an adult) also has Moon at 29 Pisces, and Moon opp Pluto in a t-square - but fortunately for him with Mercury, and not the dreaded Saturn. However he experienced quite life-threatening depression until his mid-20's. Fortunately, both my son and I were aware of what lay between us, and we plugged away at it with one another. It was excruciating, but it eventually `unlocked' the core issues between us.

Vista, I doubt that your friend would have reached the true source of her mother-issues in counselling. I have a professional counselling qualification, and it is quite a limited resource, in that unless a counsellor is truly `tuned in', they will not be able to have the client reach into those pre-verbal memories.

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Hi R4VEN,
I can tell you that in this post and many others I have read, "hair brained" is the last thing I would think about you!! It's time consuming to reply to people in detail, so I respect people like you and others who are willing to put time into another’s thread. I also can see that you are very knowledgeable about astrology. I have been studying for many years, but this is something you don’t ever stop learning from in my opinion. It’s very nice to get a fresh and new perspective.

I am pretty fascinated by your observation I have to tell you, especially the Moon at 29 Pisces. Through my studies over the years I have noticed these types of things with certain aspects, pattern, etc, so it's very interesting to hear about others. I will remember this to be sure. It’s interesting about your mother having PPD, and then your having it. It’s very fortunate that you recognized this(I am assuming through astrology??) and were able to work through it eventually.

With regards to her counseling: to tell you the truth I had always questioned in my head why she has had the same counselor for so many years and why. She said her parents paid for it because of messing up her life. I have gone into counseling myself for various situational things in my life and it was always for a period time to help me work out my problems. I always knew when the time had come for me to move on. Clearly it did not help her in the end…

Do you practice astrology and counseling together? That’s something that’s always interested me. Astrology could certainly give you a “heads up” as to what the patient’s core problems could be.

Vista

R4VEN said:

Vista, thank you for your detailed feedback. Sometimes my posts get a bit hair-brained, but the PPD issue is one which I have observed often. My mother had PPD with me - it was severe - and I had it after my eldest was born. In me it manifested as a kind of complete emotional shut-down where I cleaned and washed and looked after my baby's physical needs, but could not `connect' with him. That child (now an adult) also has Moon at 29 Pisces, and Moon opp Pluto in a t-square - but fortunately for him with Mercury, and not the dreaded Saturn. However he experienced quite life-threatening depression until his mid-20's. Fortunately, both my son and I were aware of what lay between us, and we plugged away at it with one another. It was excruciating, but it eventually `unlocked' the core issues between us.

Vista, I doubt that your friend would have reached the true source of her mother-issues in counselling. I have a professional counselling qualification, and it is quite a limited resource, in that unless a counsellor is truly `tuned in', they will not be able to have the client reach into those pre-verbal memories.

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One other thing I was curious about, do you find that all Piscies Moon placement had trouble with emotional bonding because of Post Traumatic Stress with their mothers or is it mostly just late degree? Can it manifest as just trouble bonding even with out Post Traumatic Stress in the picture?

Vista said:

One other thing I was curious about, do you find that all Piscies Moon placement had trouble with emotional bonding because of Post Traumatic Stress with their mothers or is it mostly just late degree? Can it manifest as just trouble bonding even with out Post Traumatic Stress in the picture?

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It affects all Pisces Moon people - and both my children have moon at the last degree of Pisces!! I used to feel guilty (what a waste of energy!!!) about not truly connecting with my children when they were babies, but I was only repeating what I had happen to me - I have Moon in Cancer, so the connections to my mother were very strong, although quite messed up.

I once did an astro reading for a young man with Pisces Moon who seemed quite well adjusted. I mentioned the emotional bonding/unavailable mother issue, and he thought for a moment and then said how his mother went back to work when he was 2 months old, and he spent his pre-school years in child-care. He said that he'd enjoyed this time, but his mother was always busy, and so perhaps not truly there for him. The story varies with each person. Another young woman I know with Pisces moon was very cagey and evasive when I mentioned this. Then she came out with the story of how her mother had debilitating anxiety, and just slept the day away during her early childhood. A workaholic mother would not be emotionally available to her child, just as an alcoholic, or a depressed and suicidal mother. They come in all shapes and sizes. I was a busy and distracted mother when my children were small. I was always cleaning and fussing about stuff which didn't really matter - but my mother had also been like that.

Vista said:

It’s interesting about your mother having PPD, and then your having it. It’s very fortunate that you recognized this(I am assuming through astrology??) and were able to work through it eventually.

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I think that the penny only truly dropped for me once I'd looked at the Moon signs of my mother (Virgo - obsessed with dirt!!), myself (Cancer) and then my sons (Pisces) that the picture began to take shape.

And in relation to my oldest son, after whose birth I had experienced post-natal depression....... around the time he was 24-25 we both saw a program on local TV about an Australian actor whose wife had experienced the same kind of post natal condition that I had - being overly active and busy around the baby, but never actually involved with the baby. I had not previously recognised that this has been post natal depression, but when I saw this program, the penny truly dropped!! And my son and I talked about it, and so the door between us began to open. At the time it felt like a miracle had been handed to me, because so much of my life with this son began to make sense - at long last.

Vista said:

Do you practice astrology and counseling together? That’s something that’s always interested me. Astrology could certainly give you a “heads up” as to what the patient’s core problems could be.

Vista

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Always. I began with the counselling, but over time astrology has become the `main game'. But the counselling always underlies what I do with astrology. It is just how the two skills have worked their way into what I do to help and guide others.

And it sounds to me, Vista, like your friend reached a stage where she just went along with the counselling because it was being provided for her, and any expectation that it would work for her she may have let go quite early. When a person is in a long-term depression one of the beliefs is that life will always be like this, and that nothing they do will change the situation. These beliefs tend to override any kind of reality to the contrary........that is Saturn's influence and legacy.

R4VEN said:

I think that the penny only truly dropped for me once I'd looked at the Moon signs of my mother (Virgo - obsessed with dirt!!), myself (Cancer) and then my sons (Pisces) that the picture began to take shape.

And in relation to my oldest son, after whose birth I had experienced post-natal depression....... around the time he was 24-25 we both saw a program on local TV about an Australian actor whose wife had experienced the same kind of post natal condition that I had - being overly active and busy around the baby, but never actually involved with the baby. I had not previously recognised that this has been post natal depression, but when I saw this program, the penny truly dropped!! And my son and I talked about it, and so the door between us began to open. At the time it felt like a miracle had been handed to me, because so much of my life with this son began to make sense - at long last.


Always. I began with the counselling, but over time astrology has become the `main game'. But the counselling always underlies what I do with astrology. It is just how the two skills have worked their way into what I do to help and guide others.

And it sounds to me, Vista, like your friend reached a stage where she just went along with the counselling because it was being provided for her, and any expectation that it would work for her she may have let go quite early. When a person is in a long-term depression one of the beliefs is that life will always be like this, and that nothing they do will change the situation. These beliefs tend to override any kind of reality to the contrary........that is Saturn's influence and legacy.

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Wow, that's quite unbelievable! I am mentally going over people who I know to have a Piscies Moon. I dated someone earlier this year with a Piscies Moon and it was the worst relationship I have ever had. He was so emotionally damage from his mother...she used to lie and steal, and try to get guys to marry her by roping them in through sex. He had Moon in Piscies in the 12th house! I didn't realize how powerful this placement was until much later. He was very verbally abusive and condescending towards me. He had a lot of anger towards women in general I later learned. Of course he was in denile about it. I have never been with anyone like this before. It was quite an eye opener. I have Cancer Moon as well, so i guess a part of me felt that everyone should be given a chance regardless of their background. I still believe this, however I stayed too long before after the red flags started waving.

I think it's great that you have been able to work with both astrology and counseling together. It must be very gratifying for you to be able to help people. I never realized how Post Partum Depression manifests in different ways. I suspect another friend of mine experienced a very similar PTSD as you did with your son. She has Piscies Moon and talks of how she never really bonded with her daughter and attributes it to having her baby taken away from her for visitation from her ex husband. They split when the baby was 4 months old and she would go overnight with her father. Her daughter is 8 now and craves her attention but she just isn't able to get there with her emotionally. She also didn't have a good relationship with her mother. I will have to ask more questions. This brings to mind another friend of mine with Piscies Moon. She didn't have a good relationship either with her mother. Her parents were really focused on their messed up son and basically ignored her because she was always a straight A student, althelete, overachiever. She also has Sun square Moon and Sun and Moon square and oppose her Pluto natally. Obviously someone who is a bit wounded, but comes across as very self assured and aggressive. She doesn't want children thankfully. LOL! Wow, just thought of another friend with Piscies Moon. She is really close to her mom oddly, but she is very insecure. Even though they are close, they are not very emotionally connected from what i can see. Her mother seems a little standoffish or emotionally distant. My friend is very insecure. Sorry, I could go on and on...LOL!!

Thank you again for the quick response.

Vista said:

This brings to mind another friend of mine with Piscies Moon. She didn't have a good relationship either with her mother. Her parents were really focused on their messed up son and basically ignored her because she was always a straight A student, althelete, overachiever.

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This reminds me of my kids - one a nightmare, always in trouble with authorities, so he got all the attention, although it was no doubt the wrong kind of attention. When child #2 was born, my mothering energy was always focused upon the older one, but mainly to do with: `what chaos will he create today??' My younger son learned to be `good' and to achieve. Both children were reacting to a deficit in emotional nurturing, and in their own ways, each were acting out the very emotions that I was suppressing............. nobody does this better than someone with Pisces Moon..
[On that note, perhaps your friend who suicided was actually acting out something which she `picked up' in her mother, but about which her mother was in denial. The burden of doing this can be overwhelming indeed. This is quite common for those with water-sign moons, but especially with Pisces.]

Vista said:

Sorry, I could go on and on...LOL!!

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I'm glad to have provided you with an avenue for more learning.

I had always found Pisces Moon to be an elusive energy - and I still do. They are so darned deep that you need major mining equipment to get inside them!! And they don't really talk about their feelings, even when they are female - but they do act them out.

Just keep in mind that it'll pass, Tora.

The transits are particularly dire this year, imo. I can't tell you how I'm NOT anticipating the next july-august period, with that Uranus-Saturn-Pluto showdown.

But it'll pass. Let's brave it.