Sidereal and Tropical starting points

[vox]

Why do both sidereal and tropical zodiacs have the same starting point - or how come the sidereal zodiac attributes the sequence of elements and qualities to the same signs?
Is it a mere coincidence or is there an explanation?

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by vox

Why do both sidereal and tropical zodiacs have the same starting point - or how come the sidereal zodiac attributes the sequence of elements and qualities to the same signs?
Is it a mere coincidence or is there an explanation?

A visual illustration is helpful in assisting the understanding of these ideas http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related

[vox]

Nothing wrong with that - my question rather was:

The tropical zodiac is said to start in Aries (fire/cardinal) at the spring equinox, where all signs follow in sequence: Fire>Earth>Air>Water; Cardinal>Fixed>Mutable.
How come Aries is the starting point also in the sidereal zodiac, as it does not take the spring equinox into account?

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by vox

Nothing wrong with that - my question rather was:

The tropical zodiac is said to start in Aries (fire/cardinal) at the spring equinox, where all signs follow in sequence: Fire>Earth>Air>Water; Cardinal>Fixed>Mutable. How come Aries is the starting point also in the sidereal zodiac, as it does not take the spring equinox into account?

Fwiw, IMO vox the video link I posted helps to graphically illustrate the differences between a Tropical Year and a Sidereal Year.


fwiw, IMO it is common knowledge that the Spring Equinox occurs on the same day both Tropically and Sidereally. The 'difference' being the degree and sign at which The Spring Equinox is said to occur.


(1) The Tropical Zodiac is mathematically abstracted from the background of stars mentioned in the video link and arbitrarily sets the Spring Equinox as symbolically occurring at 0º Aries.

(2) As the video link illustrates, The Sidereal Zodiac notes the position of the Sun in relation to the background of stars and so at the Spring Equinox the Sidereal Zodiac observes and notes the position of the Sun is currently, due to precession, at approximately 6º Sidereal Pisces

fwiw vox, it is notable that each zodiac has its adherents and apparently - according to those adherents - each gives good results

[vox]

"The Sidereal Zodiac is composed also of 12 signs of 30 degrees each. However, rather than being oriented to the Seasons, Aries, the start point of the Sidereal Zodiac, is oriented to the fixed stars. The ayanamsa, the difference between the Tropical and Sidereal Zodiac is controversial in Vedic astrology and there is not a consensus on the proper start point for the Sidereal Zodiac."
http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/...worldview.html

My guess was that the fire/cardinal status as the starting point of the sidereal zodiac in the same contellation as the tropical zodiac might just simply be influenced by the latter...

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by vox

"The Sidereal Zodiac is composed also of 12 signs of 30 degrees each. However, rather than being oriented to the Seasons, Aries, the start point of the Sidereal Zodiac, is oriented to the fixed stars. The ayanamsa, the difference between the Tropical and Sidereal Zodiac is controversial in Vedic astrology and there is not a consensus on the proper start point for the Sidereal Zodiac."
http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/...worldview.html

My guess was that the fire/cardinal status as the starting point of the sidereal zodiac in the same contellation as the tropical zodiac might just simply be influenced by the latter...

The following 98 word explanatory extract is sourced from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siderea...ical_astrology

QUOTE:
"Sidereal and tropical are astronomical terms describing two different definitions of a "year". They are also used as terms for two systems of ecliptic coordinates used in astrology.

Both divide the ecliptic into a number of "signs" named after constellations
BUT
(1) sidereal system defines the signs based on the fixed stars
(2) tropical system defines it based on position of vernal equinox (i.e. intersection of ecliptic with celestial equator).

Because of the precession of the equinoxes, the two systems do not remain fixed relative to each other but drift apart by about 1.4 arc degrees per century"

[JUPITERASC]

Excellent article on the topic at http://www.lunarplanner.com/siderealastrology.html

[vox]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

Both divide the ecliptic into a number of "signs" named after constellations.

My point is that the constellations do not determine their elements and qualities that also make up each sign. In the tropical system the spring evennight marks the beginning and all the signs follow as: cardinal>fixed>mutable fire>earth>air>water
so we have ari fir/car tau ear/fix gem air/mut...
But what renders each constellation the same elements and qualities as in the tropical zodiac?

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by vox

My point is that the constellations do not determine their elements and qualities that also make up each sign. In the tropical system the spring evennight marks the beginning and all the signs follow as: cardinal>fixed>mutable fire>earth>air>water
so we have ari fir/car tau ear/fix gem air/mut...
But what renders each constellation the same elements and qualities as in the tropical zodiac?

This is one of those interesting questions frequently debated on this forum vox and earlier today dr. farr posted the following comment that relates to the elements of the Tropical Zodiac

Originally Posted by dr. farr

Certainly the seasonal explanation for the tropical zodiac does NOT work when we consider the flow of the elements and the elemental affinities of the cardinal signs:
In ALL (Western) elemental affinitive systems: Fire is warm and dry, Air warm and moist, Water is cold and moist, Earth is cold and dry
In ALL (Western) elemental systems, each season is associated with a specific element: Fire = summer, Air = spring, Earth = autumn, Water = winter
Now, in the Northern hemisphere there is 0 correlation between the element of the season and the corresponding element of the sign (cardinal or tropical sign) of the beginning of that season, viz:
Spring = Air/ Aries = Fire
Summer = Fire/Cancer = Water
Autumn = Earth/Libra = Air
Winter = Water/Capricorn = Earth
...no elemental correlation at all

Funny thing, in the Southern hemisphere there is a correlation between sign/season in half of the seasons: Cancer/cold+moist, matches Winter (Water) in the Southern hemisphere; Libra/warm+moist, matches Spring (Air) in the Southern hemisphere; but there is no correlation in the Southern hemisphere for Aries and Capricorn (Southern hemisphere Autumn and Summer seasons)

In another post on AW I have explained my understanding of the "why" as to the ordering of the chain of tropical signs as correlated with what alchemists call "the circulation of the elements", unfortunately I don't remember where that post is (since I have nearly 7000 posts I have lost track)...

[Anachiel]

As I understand your question, it is not about the Tropical and Sidereal zodiacs per se, but rather why in each the qualities and elements of each sign are the same? Is that right?

So, in essence you are asking about the origins of the nature of each sign, regardless of measurement?

If so, then the answer is not a simple one but, instead has evolved over time. For example, in ancient Egypt, when the Nile flooded, Capricorn was the season and so, was seen as half fish and half goat, symbolically representing or demonstrating the flooding time.

As time goes on, people organized these observations and ancient scenarios into more and more coherent system, to put it simply. I believe it was the Babylonians that really started doing all the original organization as we understand the elements and natures of the signs. Then later the Persians and Greeks further added to the organizational model of the zodiac.

It's a long and varied history of development to what we now call astrology...many parts were integrated from many cultures and some parts have fallen into general disuse, like the mansions of the Moon which divided the zodiac into something like 28 parts instead of 12 like we accept now.