Will I marry him?

Okay, here's my story: I was friends with this guy for almost a year and then things started becoming more serious between us. We've been dating for 5 months now, and I feel like we're both moving toward marriage. So last week I asked, "Will I marry him?"

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2llhapk&s=7
I'm not sure if the chart is valid. I tried to do my reading before posting, and I think I'm supposed to check the ruler of the hour? The hour ruler of this chart is Venus, eventhough I am represented by Cancer on the ascendant and the Moon in Libra. Would it be enough to say that since the dispositor of the querent is Venus that the chart is valid?

Assuming it is...I am the Moon, he is Saturn. We are both in my 4th house, his 10th. The Moon is moving toward him without aspecting any other planet first (except Pluto, but I don't think that counts). He is exalted in Libra, but retrograde. I have very little essential dignity, only by face. Going by the connection between the two significators, it seems like a very straightforward answer. But I am concerned/confused about what his significator being retrograde could mean, and also the house placement...good?bad? I don't know. Also, the Moon's last aspect is to either Mars or the POF in the 8th house. I don't like the sound of that, but maybe it's not as ominous as I perceive it to be?

I really appreciate any and all comments about this. I really want to learn as much as possible.
Thank you!

starrynight said:

I'm not sure if the chart is valid. I tried to do my reading before posting, and I think I'm supposed to check the ruler of the hour? The hour ruler of this chart is Venus, eventhough I am represented by Cancer on the ascendant and the Moon in Libra. Would it be enough to say that since the dispositor of the querent is Venus that the chart is valid?

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No, but Venus rules the Ascendant's Triplicity, and I believe the 3rd Quarter Moon has the same nature as Venus.

starrynight said:

I am the Moon, he is Saturn. We are both in my 4th house, his 10th. The Moon is moving toward him without aspecting any other planet first (except Pluto, but I don't think that counts).

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That's right so far.

starrynight said:

He is exalted in Libra, but retrograde. I have very little essential dignity, only by face. Going by the connection between the two significators, it seems like a very straightforward answer. But I am concerned/confused about what his significator being retrograde could mean, and also the house placement...good?bad? I don't know.

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You might marry in about 10 Months. The fact that Saturn is Retrograde means this is a conjunction by Mutual Application, which indicates something abrupt, quick, sudden, sometimes forceful or violent. Even though Libra is a Human/Violent Sign, we can rule out violent because Moon and Saturn are Planetary Friends, and Saturn receives Moon by Exaltation. In other words, this conjunction is a positive/good conjunction, instead of one that is neutral or sheer evil.

starrynight said:

Also, the Moon's last aspect is to either Mars or the POF in the 8th house. I don't like the sound of that, but maybe it's not as ominous as I perceive it to be?

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Depends on how you define ominous. Fortuna's dispositor is exalted Saturn. No real problems there. I can't really tell if Mars is conjunct Fortuna, but if it is, it hints that you might get married because you get pregnant.

Actually the Moon's last aspect was to Jupiter, which isn't good because Jupiter and Saturn are moving to opposition by Mutual Application. That will be a serious conflict. Moon has separated from Jupiter, but isn't yet at 1° of separation, and that usually means false hope. Maybe you set a date and call it off, or maybe this is after you marry.

(Following is not in accordance with standard horary practice)

Since the ascending sign (Cancer) posits within it the South Node, I consider this chart unreliable for delineation. I would suggest you re-ask this same question again at a later time.

Thanks for responding, Bob.

BobZemco said:

Depends on how you define ominous. Fortuna's dispositor is exalted Saturn. No real problems there. I can't really tell if Mars is conjunct Fortuna, but if it is, it hints that you might get married because you get pregnant.

Actually the Moon's last aspect was to Jupiter, which isn't good because Jupiter and Saturn are moving to opposition by Mutual Application. That will be a serious conflict. Moon has separated from Jupiter, but isn't yet at 1° of separation, and that usually means false hope. Maybe you set a date and call it off, or maybe this is after you marry.

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I apologize for being unclear. What I meant was, the final aspect the Moon makes is a trine to Mars or the POF. The 8th house is a little cramped--
Mercury at 28.05 Aqu, Mars at 28.13 Aqu, and POF at 28.25 Aqu. (Also Neptune at 28.31 Aqu...I think the outer planets are useful sometimes, but that's just my opinion.)

The Jupiter aspect is interesting; I'm not sure what Jupiter could represent, Jupiter being the ruler of my 6th and 9th, his 3rd and 12th. Jupiter receives Saturn by term and Saturn receives Jupiter in Aries, the sign of its fall. I think, or this is backwards. The Moon, myself, separating from Jupiter... Okay, well, Jupiter could be a religious institution, travel, or higher education. Or it could be the very proposal by him (turned 3rd), except that the Moon has separated from Jupiter and he hasn't proposed to me. Can the Moon, eventhough it is my significator, still act sort of as an intermediary? In this chart I think there would be a translation of light from Jupiter to Saturn, with Saturn representing the "relationship", no? I find the more I pick apart horary charts, the more confused I become.

dr. farr said:

(Following is not in accordance with standard horary practice)

Since the ascending sign (Cancer) posits within it the South Node, I consider this chart unreliable for delineation. I would suggest you re-ask this same question again at a later time.

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This is interesting, Dr. Farr. Is it simply by sign that the chart is unreliable, or is it by house? Or both?

I for one agree with Bob the answer is yes. And it should be a good marriage, congrats!!!!!!!

starrynight said:

This is interesting, Dr. Farr. Is it simply by sign that the chart is unreliable, or is it by house? Or both?

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The SN in the ascending SIGN (anywhere in the ascending sign) was an oldtime prohibition against horary judgement followed by Gerard of Cremona and later (15th century) by Agrippa. This is pretty much the only stricture vs judgement I follow: it is not known in standard horary practice (although some consider the SN in the 1st HOUSE to indicate a "no" or otherwise very negative or difficult situation relative to the horary question)
The "logic" behind this SN "stricture" is that the entire SIGN in which the SN is posited is "polluted" by the chaotic influences of the Dragon's Tail: if this sign gives character to the horary chart by one of its degrees being the ascending degree, then the chaos of the SN pollluting the ascending sign disturbs the "order" of the entire chart "flavored" by it, and this is what (supposedly) renders the indications (or perhaps the interpretation of the indications) of that chart unreliable (not necessarily wrong or bad or false, but "shaky", chaos-influenced, etc)
So that is why I have (for a long time) chosen not to delineate such horary charts: my attitude is, its difficult enough to make accurate horary delineations, why take an additional risk (of being incorrect) suggested by the Dragon's Tail rising in the ascending sign?

starrynight said:

The Jupiter aspect is interesting; I'm not sure what Jupiter could represent, Jupiter being the ruler of my 6th and 9th, his 3rd and 12th.

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Verbal things, like rumors. That's why I said it hints at pregnancy. You believe you are pregnant, he offers to marry, then you both find out you're not, he won't be happy.

starrynight said:

Jupiter receives Saturn by term...

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That is not Reception. However, Jupiter rules Air Signs so Jupiter does receive Saturn by Triplicity and Term. That would mitigate some of the damage.

starrynight said:

... and Saturn receives Jupiter in Aries, the sign of its fall.

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Reception can only occur if they are in aspect and in the Signs of Rulership or Exaltation, or by Triplicity AND Term or Triplicity AND Face.

starrynight said:

Okay, well, Jupiter could be a religious institution, travel, or higher education.

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Planets also represent people.

starrynight said:

Can the Moon, eventhough it is my significator, still act sort of as an intermediary?

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The Moon and Mercury can never collect light. Only Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn can collect light and function as intermediaries or 3rd Parties. Interestingly, Moon and Mercury are the only two Planets that are convertible.

Similarly, Saturn can never translate light, but the rest of the Planets can.

starrynight said:

In this chart I think there would be a translation of light from Jupiter to Saturn, with Saturn representing the "relationship", no?

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Transfer of Light occurs when a Planet separates from one Planet and joins another Planet.

In order for Transfer to work, the transferring Planet has to be received by the Planet from which it has separated.

Reception is about "allowing." When a Planet receives another, it is allowing the received Planet to operate to the extent that it can (if the Planet is in poor condition it doesn't really matter if it has permission to operate or not because the Planet s just not going to perform).

Sun in Aries trine Mars in Sagittarius, Mars is giving Sun permission to operate: casa mea e casa ta, make yourself at home, eat all my cheese, drink all my wine, drag out all of my CDs and DVDs, go play with my animals, swim in my pool, take a shower etc.

When there's an aspect from the Detriment or Fall of a Planet, it's just the opposite: my enemy sent you, go away, I'm not listening to anything you say, get away from me etc.

You need Reception in a Transfer, and you don't have that. Jupiter hasn't given Moon permission to operate, and that includes transferring light.

Not only that, but you wouldn't want a transfer. Saturn doesn't want anything to do with Aries.

starrynight said:

This is interesting, Dr. Farr. Is it simply by sign that the chart is unreliable, or is it by house? Or both?

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He and I have been looking at that for some time now and we've seen more than a dozen charts and when Tail is in the Ascendant, either nothing happens very slowly, or it is a total disaster and whatever it is you want ends up being destroyed.

dr. farr said:

The SN in the ascending SIGN (anywhere in the ascending sign) was an oldtime prohibition against horary judgement followed by Gerard of Cremona and later (15th century) by Agrippa. This is pretty much the only stricture vs judgement I follow: it is not known in standard horary practice (although some consider the SN in the 1st HOUSE to indicate a "no" or otherwise very negative or difficult situation relative to the horary question)
The "logic" behind this SN "stricture" is that the entire SIGN in which the SN is posited is "polluted" by the chaotic influences of the Dragon's Tail: if this sign gives character to the horary chart by one of its degrees being the ascending degree, then the chaos of the SN pollluting the ascending sign disturbs the "order" of the entire chart "flavored" by it, and this is what (supposedly) renders the indications (or perhaps the interpretation of the indications) of that chart unreliable (not necessarily wrong or bad or false, but "shaky", chaos-influenced, etc)
So that is why I have (for a long time) chosen not to delineate such horary charts: my attitude is, its difficult enough to make accurate horary delineations, why take an additional risk (of being incorrect) suggested by the Dragon's Tail rising in the ascending sign?

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I guess that makes sense. Thank you for explaining this to me, I had no idea. Does it matter whether the true node or the mean node is used? I know some are very particular about which is used in a chart, and I believe the mean node is at 29.38 Sag for this chart. Obviously I'm just trying to help myself out here , but I can see an unreliable chart is an unreliable chart when you come right down to it. No harm in re-asking the question at a later time.

Wow! Lots of information for me to digest here. Thank you for taking the time to spell out everything for me.

BobZemco said:

Verbal things, like rumors. That's why I said it hints at pregnancy. You believe you are pregnant, he offers to marry, then you both find out you're not, he won't be happy.

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I can understand what you're saying. I mean, I know neither of us plan for me to get pregnant, certainly not before marriage, but who knows what life will throw at us between now and then. Does the chart indicate that a marriage would take place on the grounds of a supposed pregnancy? That would not be good. The reason I said Jupiter could possibly represent churches is that we did have a conversation involving where we envisioned ourselves getting married, and he was rather adament about being married in a church. Whereas I really don't need to be married in a church. Also, as far as education goes, I am looking to do graduate work. Maybe he doesn't want me to? He does travel a lot, there could be a conflict as far as that goes. Jupiter as a person is an interesting idea. Maybe a sibling of his? Could be anything really. I should ask another question just to see what Jupiter is in this chart!

That is not Reception. However, Jupiter rules Air Signs so Jupiter does receive Saturn by Triplicity and Term. That would mitigate some of the damage.

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Reception can only occur if they are in aspect and in the Signs of Rulership or Exaltation, or by Triplicity AND Term or Triplicity AND Face.

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Oh, goodness...well I've been misusing that term for a long time. I thought reception was all-encompassing...exaltation, rulership, triplicity, term, face, detriment, fall... you know, however the two related. That's very good to know.

The Moon and Mercury can never collect light. Only Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn can collect light and function as intermediaries or 3rd Parties. Interestingly, Moon and Mercury are the only two Planets that are convertible.

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Why is it that they can't collect light? And what do you mean by convertible? If this is information I can find somewhere else, I can go do that. You've done so much for me already, Bob.

Transfer of Light occurs when a Planet separates from one Planet and joins another Planet.

In order for Transfer to work, the transferring Planet has to be received by the Planet from which it has separated.

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Okay, I think I understand this as you explained it. Does it matter what state the planet that the transfer is applying to is in?

Not only that, but you wouldn't want a transfer. Saturn doesn't want anything to do with Aries.

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Very true. But that's one of the reasons I came here...tell me about the good, the bad, and the ugly!

He and I have been looking at that for some time now and we've seen more than a dozen charts and when Tail is in the Ascendant, either nothing happens very slowly, or it is a total disaster and whatever it is you want ends up being destroyed.

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I'd certainly rather take the very slowly than the alternative, but as I responded above I wouldn't have a problem with asking the question again at a later time. Maybe it was too early in the relationship for me to be asking the question. I'd just like so much for it to work out.

juicey J. said:

I for one agree with Bob the answer is yes. And it should be a good marriage, congrats!!!!!!!

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Thanks Juicey J. I really hope it is.

well Saturn retro and via combusta isnt a great thing
Even with a trine - yea looks like a marriage but it could be a short lived one

to get more long term marriage - angles should be fixed
and planets should be fixed as well with stronger reception

starrynight said:

I guess that makes sense. Thank you for explaining this to me, I had no idea. Does it matter whether the true node or the mean node is used? I know some are very particular about which is used in a chart, and I believe the mean node is at 29.38 Sag for this chart. Obviously I'm just trying to help myself out here , but I can see an unreliable chart is an unreliable chart when you come right down to it. No harm in re-asking the question at a later time.

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Since I use astro.com to erect charts, I myself always follow the true node (as also found in the swiss ephemeris)

No-from my perspective at least-there is no harm in re-asking this question.

You asked if you will be married, and I belive its a yes. Whether a good one or a longterm one, I don't know. Moon is pretty weak, only in its face even though it has accidental dignity in the 4th. Saturn retrograde and in via combusta is actually a pretty debilitated planet.

They are applying to a mutual conjunction but have quite weak reception to make things stronger between them. Could be some issues to deal with for it be a good solid marriage. Last aspect of the Moon - a trine to Mars could indicate you both will need to learn to balance your anger, frustration and passion as to bring more harmony in your marriage. Mars is also conjunct Neptune, which makes Mars more 'softer', so I would say there will be a need for compassionate understanding of each other.... (Here i'm not following traditional horary, but interpreting planets through their nature...)

rafaella said:

You asked if you will be married, and I belive its a yes. Whether a good one or a longterm one, I don't know. Moon is pretty weak, only in its face even though it has accidental dignity in the 4th. Saturn retrograde and in via combusta is actually a pretty debilitated planet.

They are applying to a mutual conjunction but have quite weak reception to make things stronger between them. Could be some issues to deal with for it be a good solid marriage. Last aspect of the Moon - a trine to Mars could indicate you both will need to learn to balance your anger, frustration and passion as to bring more harmony in your marriage. Mars is also conjunct Neptune, which makes Mars more 'softer', so I would say there will be a need for compassionate understanding of each other.... (Here i'm not following traditional horary, but interpreting planets through their nature...)

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There is no such thing as the perfect relationship this you have to understand.

Yes I agree there is no such thing as a perfect relationship, but what I said was related to the fact that Moon is weak and approaching Via combusta and Saturn is debilitated...

The question was 'will I marry him?' and that I have answered, but I just gave my further interpretations based on the aspects and the planetary positions/dignity...

starrynight said:

Why is it that they can't collect light? And what do you mean by convertible?

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We use the Planetary Order:

Moon
Mercury
Venus
Sun
Mars
Jupiter
Saturn

The shows the speed of the Planets.

Each Planet can only make aspects to the Planet below it while Direct. That means the Sun can aspect Saturn, but Saturn cannot aspect the Sun, unless Saturn is Retrograde, and that aspect would be by Mutual Application.

For Transfer, the transferring Planet must be faster than both the Planets it is linking. Moon can transfer light between any two Planets. Mercury can only transfer light to those Planets below it in the Planetary Order. Mars can only transfer light between Jupiter and Saturn. Jupiter and Saturn can never transfer light, even when Retrograde.

When Collecting, the collecting Planet must be slower than the other two Planets. For that reason, Moon and Mercury cannot collect light, because they faster than the other Planets. I suppose in theory, if Mercury were Retrograde it might be able to collect light, but I've never seen a Retrograde Planet collect light in any texts.

Since Saturn is the slowest Planet, he can collect light from any two Planets. Jupiter can only collect light from those Planets that are faster than he (which is the Planets above him in the list).

Transfer requires the transferring Planet to be received by the Planet from which it is separating.

Collection requires that the two Planets have Dignity in the collecting Planet.

For Collection:

1) Three Planets; Planet #1, Planet #2 and the Collector;

2) The Collector must be slower than both Planet #1 and Planet #2;

3) Planet #1 and Planet #2 cannot be in aspect to each other;

4) Planet #1 and Planet #2 must each be in an applying aspect with the Collector (the aspect is irrelevant).

5) The Collector must be in the Dignity of both Planet #1 and Planet #2.

Dignity means Rulership, Exaltation, Triplicity, Term OR Face.

Suppose Mars is at 26° Virgo and Moon makes an applying sextile and Mercury an applying square.

Moon is the Triplicity Ruler of Earth Signs, so Moon has Dignity there.

26° Virgo is the Face of Mercury, so Mercury has Dignity there. Virgo is also the Rulership and Exaltation of Mercury, so that's even more Dignity.

If there is no Dignity, then the position the Collector occupies is effectively a point in the Zodiac where Planet #1 and/or Planet #2 would be Peregrine. That's the logic behind that.

Mercury is Neuter. If Mercury is in an applying aspect to Venus, then Mercury takes on the nature of Venus. Mercury is then Feminine. If Mercury is in an applying aspect to Mars, then Mercury is Masculine and takes the nature of Mars. That means if Mercury is Above Horizon he is weakened slightly because Mars is a Nocturnal Planet. If Mercury is in aspect to Jupiter, then Mercury is Masculine, and also Diurnal (a Day Planet) and that means if Mercury is Below Horizon it is weakened slightly. If Mercury is square or opposition a Malefic without Reception, then Mercury becomes a Malefic.

Moon changes her nature based on the Quarters. That's more important for decumbiture charts and medical astrology.