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  #1  
Old 01-13-2008, 12:25 AM
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Re: Your Rising Sign and Your Mother's Moon

For fear of getting off-topic again, you may also wish to explore a concept that is often used to rectify the Ascendants of natal charts; unfortunately, I cannot remember the exact source from which I got this information, nor the exact wording it used, but there was a special two-way relationship between the position of the Moon during the exact moment of conception and the child's Ascendant.

EDIT: I found the site through a Google search; it was actually pretty easy, as it was one of only five that links appeared when I searched for the Tritune of Hermes. I hope nobody minds that it's from a Rosicrucian site...

The Prenatal Epoch.

Quote:
For summary, let us restate the fundamental principle of the Prenatal Epoch known as the Tritune of Hermes: "The Ascendant at birth is the place of the Moon at a certain Epoch, ant the Ascendant or its opposite point at Epoch was the place of the Moon at birth."
I bring it up here because I believe it is yet another idea to explore to understand the profound workings of the Universe in "assigning" a specific Ascendant to a child.

If anyone is interesting in discussing this further, I will create another thread. Now, back to the topic

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Old 01-13-2008, 01:35 AM
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Re: Your Rising Sign and Your Mother's Moon

wow Arian!
I just scrolled the PreNatal Epoch article and allthough I'm a bit confused about pre Epoch and Epoch I was amazed by Law no3. I have a waning moon above horizon and I was born 9 months PLUS a week after the day I was due..
Do you know how I can compute my conception day?
I'm going back to the article now!!!

thank you Arian
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:50 AM
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Re: Your Rising Sign and Your Mother's Moon

I think I should probably create a thread about the Prenatal Epoch

I've always found the Tritune of Hermes to be a bit more complicated than the Animodar Method of Rectification, for some reason, but I think this is because I had a bad first experience with Hermes; I actually attempted to construct a calendar and manually count backwards 273 days from my birth!

This became much easier when I discovered Date calculator: Add to or subtract from a date.

Anyway, I don't want to further gravitate away from the topic of this thread...

EDIT: I have created a new thread in Other branches of astrology titled The Prenatal Epoch. I apologize to SiderealSupastar and the others for the interruption!

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Old 01-13-2008, 01:53 AM
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The Prenatal Epoch

I have created this new thread to continue the discussion that was begun in Your Rising Sign and Your Mother's Moon about the Prenatal Epoch.

I believe this is primarily a concept used for chart rectification, but I thought it would be interesting to discuss the relationship that possibly exists between the Moon at the exact moment of conception and the Ascendant at birth.

For anyone who is unfamiliar with this concept, this is the summary given at the site:

Quote:
For summary, let us restate the fundamental principle of the Prenatal Epoch known as the Tritune of Hermes: "The Ascendant at birth is the place of the Moon at a certain Epoch, ant the Ascendant or its opposite point at Epoch was the place of the Moon at birth."
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:55 AM
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Re: Your Rising Sign and Your Mother's Moon

I don't want to deviate the tread either but it's so interesting I cannot resist. So 273 are the days I must count backwards for the conception date or does this apply only to your birth?
Please Arian help this poor old man out....!
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:56 AM
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Re: Your Rising Sign and Your Mother's Moon

Meet me in The Prenatal Epoch; I'll try to help you there

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Old 01-13-2008, 01:59 AM
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Re: The Prenatal Epoch

hi there

ok this thread was born about 4 minutes ago but it was conceived.... when?
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Old 01-13-2008, 02:39 AM
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Re: The Prenatal Epoch

Quote:
ok this thread was born about 4 minutes ago but it was conceived.... when?
Oh goodness, don't even get us started on that!

I think this theory only applies to humans, but I could be wrong...

Alright, let's see if I can possibly apply the Prenatal Epoch to your chart, and possibly rectify your Ascendant in the process. It's getting late in my time zone, so I may make a few mistakes, but I'll try to double-check my work tomorrow

Here are the Four Laws of the Epoch:

Quote:
Four Laws of the Epoch

1. When the Moon at birth increases in light, it will be on the ascending degree of Epoch, and the Moon at Epoch will be on the ascending degree at birth.

2. When the Moon at birth decrease in light, it will be on the decreasing degree at Epoch, and the Moon at Epoch will be on the descending degree at birth.

3. When the Moon at birth is (a) increasing in light and below the horizon, or (b) decreasing in light and above the horizon, the period of gestation is longer than the norm.

4. When the Moon at birth is (a) increasing in light and above the horizon or (b) decreasing in light and below the horizon, the period of gestation is shorter than the norm.
Your natal Moon meets the qualifications of #4; is is increasing in light (i.e. after the New Moon phase--the exact conjunction of the Sun and the Moon--but before the Full Moon phase--the exact opposition of the Sun and the Moon) and above the horizon (i.e. above the Ascendant-Descendant axis, or in the seventh through twelfth houses).

Here are the Four Orders of Epoch:

Quote:
Four Orders of Epoch

1. Moon above horizon and increasing
in light.......... 273 days minus x.
2. Moon above horizon and decreasing
in light.......... 273 days plus x.
3. Moon below horizon and increasing
in light.......... 273 days plus x.
4. Moon below horizon and decreasing
in light.......... 273 days minus x.
Your natal Moon meets the qualifications of the first order because, as we established before, it is above the horizon and increasing in light. Therefore, we shall use the formula 273 days minus x.

The reasoning and application of this formula is described in the following paragraphs (I hope I'm not violating too many copyright laws here...):

Quote:
It is to be understood that the 273 days referred to in the above table is the normal period of gestation, or nine solar or ten lunar months. This normal period is increased or decreased in accordance with the distance of the Moon from either the Ascendant or Descendant, and "x" is a certain number of days corresponding to this distance obtained by dividing the distance in degrees by thirteen degrees, the latter being the average daily motion of the Moon.

When making the count, count to the Ascendant (AC) when the Moon is increasing in light, and to the Descendant (DC) when the Moon is decreasing in light. Another more definite way of stating this would be: In orders Nos. 1 and 4 the distance in degrees of the Moon from the horizon last crossed (AC or DC), divided by thirteen, gives "x", or the number of days by which this period is decreased; and in orders Nos. 2 and 3 the distance of the Moon in degrees from the horizon which it is approaching, divided by thirteen, gives the number of days by which this period is increased.
Things start getting trickier here, as you may have foreseen while reading these two paragraphs.

I try to keep things as simple as possible and first count back 273 days from your birthday. This is quite easy using the link I provided in the thread Your Rising Sign and Your Mother's Moon--Date calculator: Add to or subtract from a date; I enter 4 by the month, 25 by the day, and 1977 by the year, click the arrow next to the drop down box and select subtract, enter 273 in the box next to days, and click Calculate new date! The resulting date is Monday, July 26, 1976.

Now, this part gets a bit trickier because all of the formulas given refer to the period of gestation--not to the exact date of conception, although this is what you are trying to deduce by plugging numbers into the formula.

The most important thing to remember while "playing" with the date is this:
  • If the formula is 273 days minus x, as it is for your chart, decrease the number of days of conception by moving the "standard" date (i.e. the one you received by subtracting exactly 273 days from your date of birth) forwards.
  • If the formula is 273 days plus x, increase the number of days of conception by moving the "standard" date (i.e. the one you received by subtracting exactly 273 days from your date of birth) backwards.

This may seem like a simple enough concept, but you'd be surprised how easy it is to get confused while working with numbers, especially while using a "guess-and-check" method.

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Old 01-13-2008, 03:01 AM
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Re: The Prenatal Epoch

ok so now we substruct 99(the degrees between moon and ASC)divided by 13?
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Old 01-13-2008, 03:05 AM
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Re: The Prenatal Epoch

Hold on, you're getting ahead of me here!

Quote:
ok so now we substruct 99(the degrees between moon and ASC)divided by 13?
This sounds correct, but I'll have to reread through this paragraph again to make sure.

Quote:
It is to be understood that the 273 days referred to in the above table is the normal period of gestation, or nine solar or ten lunar months. This normal period is increased or decreased in accordance with the distance of the Moon from either the Ascendant or Descendant, and "x" is a certain number of days corresponding to this distance obtained by dividing the distance in degrees by thirteen degrees, the latter being the average daily motion of the Moon.

When making the count, count to the Ascendant (AC) when the Moon is increasing in light, and to the Descendant (DC) when the Moon is decreasing in light. Another more definite way of stating this would be: In orders Nos. 1 and 4 the distance in degrees of the Moon from the horizon last crossed (AC or DC), divided by thirteen, gives "x", or the number of days by which this period is decreased; and in orders Nos. 2 and 3 the distance of the Moon in degrees from the horizon which it is approaching, divided by thirteen, gives the number of days by which this period is increased.
Since your Moon is increasing in light, yes, we would count the distance of the Moon to the Ascendant and then divide this number by thirteen degrees.

We're not quite home free yet, though, because next we have to convert your Ascendant and Moon into absolute degrees (i.e. the 360-degree system).

I'll make a list to make this easier:

Aries: 0-29
Taurus: 30-59
Gemini: 60-89
Cancer: 90-119
Leo: 120-149
Virgo: 150-179
Libra: 180-209
Scorpio: 210-239
Sagittarius: 240-269
Capricorn: 270-299
Aquarius: 300-329
Pisces: 330-359

Lucky for us, your Moon is located at almost exactly 25 Cancer, which I believe is associated with 115 degrees. Unfortunately, the 0 that begins each sign always confuses me, because if a planet has just entered a sign, it probably has not yet reached the first degree of this sign. Therefore, I'm never sure how to include this space between 0 and 1 within my calculations...but enough obsessing on this detail for now. The last time I checked 90+25=115, so I'm keeping with this!

Now, let's calculate the absolute degree for your Ascendant, which is approximately 4 Scorpio 15. The absolute degree of the first degree of Scorpio is 210, so if we add 4 degrees and 15 minutes to this, we receive 214 degrees, 15 minutes.

Here's the second tricky part--at least, it's always been tricky for me.

I don't think you have a problem here, but sometimes you need to add 360 to a number to make it large enough to subtract the originally larger number from it. So the next important question is: which number do we subtract from which number?

We know that we want the result to be greater than 90 degrees because the Moon is located before the point that is exactly perpendicular to (i.e. exactly 90 degrees from) your Ascendant, thus increasing the Moon's distance from the Ascendant.

I'll do the most logical thing first--subtract the smaller number from the larger number, but remember that this doesn't work when Pisces transitions into Aries someplace between the Moon and the Ascendant/Descendant. Remember that whether you measure the distance in degrees between the Moon and the Ascendant or between the Moon and the Descendant depends upon whether the Moon is increasing or decreasing in light.

So I take away 115 degrees from 214 degrees, 15 minutes. In order to do this math, first I must convert 214 degrees, 15 minutes into a convertible form (i.e. a fraction)

214 degrees, 15 minutes = 214 15/60 = 214 1/4

214 1/4 - 115 = 99 1/4

There's no need to convert 99 1/4 back into minutes and degrees because we have to do more math.

Next, we divide the distance in degrees--99 1/4--by 13, which is the average daily motion of the Moon.

(99 1/4) / 13 = 7 33/52.

Now, what on Earth do we do with this strange number, you may ask?

This normal [gestation] period [i.e. 273 days] is increased or decreased in accordance with the distance of the Moon from either the Ascendant or Descendant.

So the average 273-day gestation period is decreased by 7 33/52 days, since the Moon is above the horizon and increasing in light.

I'm going to pull up the handy little guideline I posted before:

Quote:
If the formula is 273 days minus x, as it is for your chart, decrease the number of days of conception by moving the "standard" date (i.e. the one you received by subtracting exactly 273 days from your date of birth) forwards.

If the formula is 273 days plus x, increase the number of days of conception by moving the "standard" date (i.e. the one you received by subtracting exactly 273 days from your date of birth) backwards.
So, we decrease the number of days of conception by moving the "standard" date (i.e. July 26, 1976, which we received from that nifty little calculator a while back) forwards.

July 26, 1976 + 7 days (ignore the fraction for now) = August 2, 1976. I could try converting that fraction into some usable form, but I am completely worn out...

According to the article, "Every Epoch must conform to four separate and distinct conditions," and "unless, therefore, an Epoch conforms strictly to these four conditions, it may be regarded as a fictitious one." Unfortunately, I'm not experienced working with the Law of Sex. Funny name, isn't it? :38:

I'd probably stop laughing once I tried to deal with the Sex or "Critical" Degrees and the Sex Quadrants, though...

Does anyone else wish to continue where I left off?

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Old 01-13-2008, 03:17 AM
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Re: The Prenatal Epoch

ok. so far I am with you!!!
...except the reason for the conversion in absolute degrees but you'll explain later on don't mind me for now...
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Old 01-13-2008, 03:59 AM
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Re: The Prenatal Epoch

Quote:
ok. so far I am with you!!!
...except the reason for the conversion in absolute degrees but you'll explain later on don't mind me for now...
I suppose you don't have to convert the sign and degree into absolute degrees, but it makes the math easier.

If you don't mind counting, you can skip this step.

Now, let's go back to the quote at the very beginning of this thread:

Quote:
For summary, let us restate the fundamental principle of the Prenatal Epoch known as the Tritune of Hermes: "The Ascendant at birth is the place of the Moon at a certain Epoch, ant the Ascendant or its opposite point at Epoch was the place of the Moon at birth."
According to the information in your signature, your Ascendant is 4 Scorpio 15; therefore, the Moon should be at or around this degree.

Conversely, the Ascendant or its opposite point (i.e. Descendant) at the Epoch should at or around 25 Cancer--the degree of the Moon in your natal chart.

What I usually do next isn't very scientific at all; I create a conception chart for noon on the day indicated and play around with it until I find a conception time that fits these guidelines. If nothing works, well...then I try again.

Fortunately, the Moon was in Scorpio on this possible conception day, which makes me very happy indeed; even if I do all of the math correctly, this doesn't always work so nicely.

So now, I shall fiddle around with the chart until the Moon is at 4 Scorpio 15; then, I will check the Ascendant yielded by this time.

The Moon was at 4 Scorpio 15 around 2:07 PM, and the Ascendant at this time was 11 Scorpio 42--clearly, this didn't work

I don't understand why, though; I created an Epoch Chart for myself a while ago and was able to arrive at a date and time in which the Ascendant was the degree of my natal Moon and the degree of the Moon was the degree of my possible Descendant.

EDIT: I just thought of something else; perhaps I should have looked for the time in which the Ascendant matched the degree of the natal Moon rather than the time in which the degree of the Moon matched the degree of the Ascendant? The Ascendant changes degrees and signs much more quickly than the Moon, after all...

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Old 01-13-2008, 04:14 AM
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Re: The Prenatal Epoch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arian Maverick

Does anyone else wish to continue where I left off?

Arian Maverick
ok. you are worn out indeed. you are a true warrior I must confess!!! It is real late,the sun is up here in Greece, it's a better idea to take a raincheck for tomorrow.

LOADS of thanks but...
we're not done. I'll come back to torture you some more
Thank you for your time
Conceptionally (as Tim would say)
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Old 01-13-2008, 04:27 AM
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Re: The Prenatal Epoch

I need to ask you one more question before I retire for the night--how certain of you of the accuracy of your time of birth? Is it possible that it could be off by a few minutes?

Also, how do you feel about having a late Libra Ascendant...?

The Tritune of Hermes isn't 100% accurate, but I think I did find a time on this conception date in which the Ascendant corresponded with the exact degree of your natal Moon, and the Moon was within five degrees or so of your given Ascendant--not too bad.

The exact conception time I received is 5:19:25 AM on August 2, 1976 if you want to create the chart yourself.

The only problem is that since Scorpio is a slower-moving Ascendant in the Northern Hemisphere, you would have had to be born at approximately 7:34 AM to have a late Libra Ascendant; this would be a 26-minute inaccuracy, which seems unlikely unless the time of birth you're using now is an estimate.

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Old 01-13-2008, 05:28 PM
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Re: The Prenatal Epoch

Hallo Arian!

I have read this thread and the others you have posted about finding your real ascendant - including the usage of solar arcs etc -and most recently your posts about Prenatal Epoch in which you have included a link from Skyscript. I am uncertain too about the exact degrees of my ascendant..I know it's Libra but I am not so sure if the degrees are correct ...

I haven't understood how I can find the movement of the Moon ...I can't figure out which one of the four orders fits the day I was born. I was born near a full moon....and my moon is in Taurus...so this means that my Moon is above and decreasing or I've just uttered something real stupid :34:?
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Old 01-13-2008, 08:50 PM
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Re: The Prenatal Epoch

hi there Arian,

Oh my God!!! ascendant Libra????????? Oh my God.
the hour of birth is not exact but it should be 10 minutes plus or minus. I don't have a birth certificate with time on it it's from my mother. she could be half an hour off but knowing my mother I doubt it. I think we''ll have to find out using the epoch chart...
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Old 01-13-2008, 11:23 PM
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Re: The Prenatal Epoch

Quote:
hi there Arian,

Oh my God!!! ascendant Libra????????? Oh my God.
the hour of birth is not exact but it should be 10 minutes plus or minus. I don't have a birth certificate with time on it it's from my mother. she could be half an hour off but knowing my mother I doubt it. I think we''ll have to find out using the epoch chart...
As I mentioned before, I don't know if this is the correct Epoch chart. Remember these quotes?

Quote:
"Every Epoch must conform to four separate and distinct conditions," and "unless, therefore, an Epoch conforms strictly to these four conditions, it may be regarded as a fictitious one."
There was also something called the Law of Sex to work with, which unfortunately I don't have experience with, and it is possible that this is an "Irregular Epoch."

So don't panic yet.

Talibr_sagi,

Could you possibly post your natal data here or send me a personal message? It'll be a lot easier for me to help you if I can actually see the chart.

Quote:
I was born near a full moon....
Were you born slightly before or slightly after the Full Moon? This is a key detail that we must know to determine if the Moon was increasing in light or decreasing in light.

Before Full Moon = Increasing in Light
After Full Moon = Decreasing in Light

As for whether the Moon was above or below the Earth, simply tell me what house it is located in.

1st - 6th houses = Below the Earth
7th - 12th houses = Below the Earth

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Old 01-13-2008, 11:51 PM
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Re: The Prenatal Epoch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talibr_sagi
I was born near a full moon....and my moon is in Taurus...so this means that my Moon is above and decreasing or I've just uttered something real stupid :34:?
Hi there Talibr_sagi
I don't have your chart but if your asc is Libra and your moon in Taurus then it is certainly above the horizon. If you were born after a full moon then your moon is above and decreasing in light and if you are born before the full moon then you are above and increasing.
I think I got it right
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Old 01-14-2008, 12:00 AM
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Re: The Prenatal Epoch

hi there Arian.
First of all thanks again for the help, I appreciate it a lot!!!!
I am studing the chart you generated and I''ll try to see whether the 4 conditions are satisfied or it's a fictitious chart. I am sure I''ll have questions ....so be en garde.
Thank you
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Old 01-14-2008, 02:24 AM
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Re: The Prenatal Epoch

I'm learning this myself, but hopefully we'll be able to work through the directions together

I think we should look into this in particular:

Quote:
The law of sex is based upon the Hindu subdivision of the zodiac into twenty-eight mansions or "asterisms" of 12 6-7 degrees each, which gives the following:
I've heard of lunar mansions, but I'm not sure they are related to these Hindu subdivisions.

According to In Pursuit of Sacred Science, Part V:

Quote:
The Hindu astronomy texts divide the celestial plane of the ecliptic into either 27 or 28 asterisms called "nakshatras." The star Beta Arietis in the constellation Aries--which is located at the tip of the Ram's "nose"--is the junction star of the first Hindu asterism called Ashvini. During the early ninth century CE at Borobudur, the sunrise on April 2nd each year occurred in close proximity to the termination point on the eastern horizon for the long axial pathway that connects Borobudur to the nearby temples of Candi Pawon and Candi Mendut. This was the very day each year that marked the first day in the annual solar cycle in which the Sun had crossed the celestial longitude of Ashvini's junction star Beta Arietis.
I researched nakshatras a bit when I attempted to study Vedic astrology, but I don't remember genders associated with them, although it makes sense as the signs in western astrology are similarly either masculine or feminine.

So I suppose the next step is to find the names of these nakshatras and determine if each is masculine or feminine...

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Old 01-14-2008, 03:59 AM
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Re: The Prenatal Epoch

I found the mansions but nothing yet on the male/female aspect


The Twenty-seven Constellations or Lunar Mansions

Name Position Location Ruler

Ashwini 1st 000d00' - 013d20' Ketu Dasra

Bharani 2nd 013d20' - 026d40' Venus Yama

Krittika 3rd 026d40' - 040d00' Sun Agni

Rohini 4th 040d00' - 053d20' Moon Bhrama

Mrigashira 5th 053d20' - 066d40' Mars Chandra

Ardra 6th 066d40' - 080d00' Rahu Rudra

Punarvasu 7th 080d00' - 093d20' Jupiter Aditi

Pushya 8th 093d20' - 106d40' Saturn Jeeva

Ashlesha 9th 106d40' - 120d00' Mercury Sarpa

Magha 10th 120d00' - 133d20' Ketu Pitar

Poorvaphalguni 11th 133d20' - 146d40' Venus Bhaga

Uttaraphalguni 12th 146d40' - 160d00' Sun Aryama

Hasta 13th 160d00' - 173d20' Moon Ravi

Chitra 14th 173d20' - 186d40' Mars Tvashta

Swati 15th 186d40' - 200d00' Rahu Vayu

Vishakha 16th 200d00' - 213d20' Jupiter Sakragni

Anuradha 17th 213d20' - 226d40' Saturn Mitra

Jyeshtha 18th 226d40' - 240d00' Mercury Shakra

Mula 19th 240d00' - 253d20' Ketu Niriti

Poorvashadha 20th 253d20 - 266d40' Venus Apa

Uttarashadha 21st 266d40' - 280d00' Sun Vishwadeva

Shravaha 22nd 280d00' - 293d20' Moon Govinda

Dhanishtha 23rd 293d20' - 306d40' Mars Vasu

Satabhisha 24th 306d40' - 320d00' Rahu Varuna

Poorvabhadrapada 25th 320d00' - 333d20' Jupiter Ajaikacharna

Uttarabhadrepada 26th 333d20' - 346d40' Saturn Ahirbudhya

Revti 27th 346d40' - 360d00' Mercury Pusha


ok.according to the above the moon in my conception chart is libra 29d03' that corresponds to the 16th mansion ruled by Jupiter. But is it male or female???
The ''quadrant'' part is easy.... The moon is in the second quadrant so it is male!
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Old 01-14-2008, 03:17 PM
Talibr_sagi Talibr_sagi is offline
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Re: The Prenatal Epoch

Hi Arian & Athan!! Thank you for you help!!

I was sure about the above the horizon part, but I wasn't sure about the increasing or decreasing...
I was born before the full moon...so it must be increasing...but just to be on the right side, here's my natal chart:


If you need any additional data...please tell me so!

Thanks again guys!!
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Old 01-14-2008, 04:37 PM
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Re: The Prenatal Epoch

yeap Talibr you are right.
Moon is above and increasing in light.
So in your case Laws no1&4 are applied just as in my case. Just follow Arian's steps in the post above and you'll get to the point that we are....trying to figure out the gender of the lunar mansions that is. Any insight about the topic is more than welcome and if you need any help just ask!
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Last edited by athan; 01-14-2008 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 01-14-2008, 05:15 PM
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Re: The Prenatal Epoch

YES!!! found about nakshastra gender.

http://www.marlenesniche.tripod.com/...ics/id113.html

got to run for work now I''be back 05:00 AM greek time

cheers
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Old 01-14-2008, 06:02 PM
Talibr_sagi Talibr_sagi is offline
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Re: The Prenatal Epoch

OK Athan thank you!
I have counted the distance between the Moon and the Ascendant...the number I came up is 142...divided by 13 gives us 10,9 which means 11 days....so 24 February 1977 plus 11 = 7 March 1977....

"The Ascendant at birth is the place of the Moon at a certain Epoch, ant the Ascendant or its opposite point at Epoch was the place of the Moon at birth."

When I looked for the moon's position so as to be at the degrees of my ascendant - 4.8 of Libra - the ascendant of the epoch was in Capicorn...although the cusp of the 4th house was in Taurus but it's too early....only 3.24 while my natal moon is 12.51.

For the second one:
I checked up the ascendant to be in Taurus near the 12.51 degrees...the position of the moon was in 7.35 (Libra)....but that doesn't mean that the degrees of my ascendant are in 7.35 degrees right?
Because from what I understood both of conditions have to be applied.

If there's something else to try....I would be very interested to do so!!
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